Post Your Battery Degradation Results

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I think Tony's range charts are accurate. Heck, even the GOM seems to be getting more accurate. All that data Nissan collects from us must be doing some good.

As for degradation, This months stats for our '12 are actually better than last month's, and it was a bit colder, at 65 F. See below.
 
msandeep said:
No need to speculate - just report what you see. I believe this problem lends itself well to some statistical analysis. I can think of a number of a number of independent variables - battery age (in miles), average speed, top speed, average summer temperature, beginning and ending SOC. The dependent variable would be miles traveled. Given enough data points, it might be possible to build a regression model that predicts the range at the 90% confidence level. The key would be to get enough people to respond and enter data accurately.
That's a lot of noise to filter through when the factor that matters for range is battery capacity, which is easily correlated with range: if you typically have a range of 70 miles under your driving conditions, when your battery is 15% degraded you will then have a range of ~59.5 miles. It's pretty simple.

By contrast, a range report: I drove 72 miles today using 182 Gid (%SOC is not meaningful because it varies as the battery degrades and older LEAFs don't report it anyway). A "100%" charge gives about 237 Gid on my car, last I checked, and turtle has been reported to be around 4-7 Gid. The elevation varied from 8100 feet to 5760 feet, the temperature range was 52ºF to 78ºF, perhaps a hundred watt•hours of AC use, more than half the trip was at 60 mph (actual), the rest at highly variable speeds including a half dozen stops. So, what is my range under those conditions? Perhaps ((237-7)/182) x 72 = 91 miles from full charge to turtle, except that if I had charged to "100%" I would have lost some miles due to the lack of regen descending my steep hill. And a few months from now the range for that same trip will have decreased drastically due to winter temperatures.

You might want to take a look at Tony Williams' Range Chart, especially the footnotes, to get an idea what a gigantic variation in range there can be depending on speed, temperature, air density altitude, elevation gain/loss, wind, rain, snow, and the like. Never mind such big factors as driving style. The idea that my range, usually driving mountains between 8100 feet elevation and 5760 feet elevation, has any bearing on the range someone else might get at sea level, for example, is not credible. And vice versa.

That's why we report the physical characteristics of the battery, such as Ahr, something that easily allows a look at how degraded the capacity of the battery is.
 
Well, then how do you predict GID as a function of total miles and other factors? Remember, I am not interested in my range today - I already know that. I am interested in what my range will look like, say 30K miles from now. Measuring GID does not do that. Instead, if we have a sufficiently large sample of data points, it may be possible to build a prediction model based on various factors that I outlined. Of course, there's no guarantee that a model can be built, but it's worth a try.

FWIW, I did set up the survey form (see sig). I encourage Leaf owners, esp. with older cars to respond.

dgpcolorado said:
That's a lot of noise to filter through when the factor that matters for range is battery capacity, which is easily correlated with range: if you typically have a range of 70 miles under your driving conditions, when your battery is 15% degraded you will then have a range of ~59.5 miles. It's pretty simple.

By contrast, a range report: I drove 72 miles today using 182 Gid (%SOC is not meaningful because it varies as the battery degrades and older LEAFs don't report it anyway). A "100%" charge gives about 237 Gid on my car, last I checked, and turtle has been reported to be around 4-7 Gid. The elevation varied from 8100 feet to 5760 feet, the temperature range was 52ºF to 78ºF, perhaps a hundred watt•hours of AC use, more than half the trip was at 60 mph (actual), the rest at highly variable speeds including a half dozen stops. So, what is my range under those conditions? Perhaps ((237-7)/182) x 72 = 91 miles from full charge to turtle, except that if I had charged to "100%" I would have lost some miles due to the lack of regen descending my steep hill. And a few months from now the range for that same trip will have decreased drastically due to winter temperatures.

You might want to take a look at Tony Williams' Range Chart, especially the footnotes, to get an idea what a gigantic variation in range there can be depending on speed, temperature, air density altitude, elevation gain/loss, wind, rain, snow, and the like. Never mind such big factors as driving style. The idea that my range, usually driving mountains between 8100 feet elevation and 5760 feet elevation, has any bearing on the range someone else might get at sea level, for example, is not credible. And vice versa.

That's why we report the physical characteristics of the battery, such as Ahr, something that easily allows a look at how degraded the capacity of the battery is.
 
msandeep said:
Well, then how do you predict GID as a function of total miles and other factors? Remember, I am not interested in my range today - I already know that. I am interested in what my range will look like, say 30K miles from now. Measuring GID does not do that. Instead, if we have a sufficiently large sample of data points, it may be possible to build a prediction model based on various factors that I outlined. Of course, there's no guarantee that a model can be built, but it's worth a try...
Well, total Gids and battery capacity are the factors that determine range so, yes, they are the best indicators of range loss.

We already have considerable data as to factors influencing the decline in range as the battery ages. Trying to accumulate anecdotal reports of "range" based on wildly inaccurate or imprecise factors, does not figure to be a useful way to predict range loss. Since you remain unconvinced of that, I'll just bow out of the discussion.
 
msandeep said:
Well, then how do you predict GID as a function of total miles and other factors? Remember, I am not interested in my range today - I already know that. I am interested in what my range will look like, say 30K miles from now. Measuring GID does not do that. Instead, if we have a sufficiently large sample of data points, it may be possible to build a prediction model based on various factors that I outlined. Of course, there's no guarantee that a model can be built, but it's worth a try.

FWIW, I did set up the survey form (see sig). I encourage Leaf owners, esp. with older cars to respond.

I haven't kept up with all of this thread, but there is a factor that has become clear since the early MY13 Leafs came out: the numbers reported by the various apps/meters are calculations based on digital data provided by the Nissan computer, and VARY BY THE WAY NISSAN PROGRAMS THE COMPUTER. While GIDS (one of the few seemingly only mildly manipulated data sets) appeared fairly linear against actual battery capacity remaining, and therefore against miles remaining at constant load, starting with MY13 GIDS are not linear against capacity remaining, and especially so at low battery levels. It seems as though starting later in MY13, and persisting with MY14 and MY15 Leafs that Nissan may have restored the GIDS data set to that closer to the MY11 and 12 Leafs.

An additional factor complicating all this is that a very large number of posters on this forum have MY11 and MY12 Leafs. They are early adopters, very well educated, techy type people. Some have recognized that the newer Leafs have different programming than the older Leafs, but many have not. When you read posts on this forum it is very helpful to note what year Leaf the poster owns, and adjust your interpretation of their post based on that information.

Remember ALL of the numbers reported by the car, Leaf Apps, or Leaf meters are based on data that has been programmed by Nissan engineers. NONE have been confirmed by Nissan to mean what people on these boards think they do. GIDs, SOH, H, capacity, volts, etc are ALL assumptions based on reverse engineering by smart people on these boards, almost entirely by people who own MY11 or MY12 Leafs.
 
Just like with ANY electronic device using a battery, it's all about AHr capacity as the device is used over time!
 
dgpcolorado said:
msandeep said:
Well, then how do you predict GID as a function of total miles and other factors? Remember, I am not interested in my range today - I already know that. I am interested in what my range will look like, say 30K miles from now. Measuring GID does not do that. Instead, if we have a sufficiently large sample of data points, it may be possible to build a prediction model based on various factors that I outlined. Of course, there's no guarantee that a model can be built, but it's worth a try...
Well, total Gids and battery capacity are the factors that determine range so, yes, they are the best indicators of range loss.

We already have considerable data as to factors influencing the decline in range as the battery ages. Trying to accumulate anecdotal reports of "range" based on wildly inaccurate or imprecise factors, does not figure to be a useful way to predict range loss. Since you remain unconvinced of that, I'll just bow out of the discussion.
Agree w/dgp.

msandeep: You assert "I am not interested in my range today - I already know that." You do? How do you know this? Have you run a controlled/reasonably controlled driving test cycle from 100% full w/a balanced pack down to turtle or vehicle totally stopping? Without that, I assert you don't know it.

Example at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=273048#p273048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; including links to a few more there.

Your survey asks things like "ending driving range" displayed which is the crap GOM again and "Maximum range on a full charge". I'm assuming you're asking about the GOM again. That varies too. I don't keep track of those values but off the top of my head, I've seen values as low as 80 at 100% charge and maybe as high as 95 or so... I dunno.

Or, are you asking what people "think" their range is... If it's that, all bets are off on the answers you'll get for that. Who knows when people believe they're "done" in terms of range (e.g. x # of fuel bars remaining, x % SoC (if applicable), x gids remaining, GOM starts flashing, GOM goes to ---, % SoC goes to --- %, turtle, etc.)? Some people who complain about "poor" range are leaving a fair amount of capacity on the table by not running the battery down as low as they think they are...
 
Grumble.. 12th bar finally left me this afternoon. 24092 miles, 21 months.
Returning from lunch I had 11/12 energy bars but this evening what looked like 12/12 was actually 11/11.. wah :(
Despite all my efforts here in Irvine, CA (about 12mi from the coast) to keep the battery cool (or at least <25C or 5 temp bars) it is finally gone.
I had been watching the Ah capacity drift down
55.86Ah 71Hx early June
55.65Ah 70Hx early July
55.63Ah 70Hx mid/early August
54.67Ah 68Hx mid/late October 23800mi. (didn't drive much in Sept/Oct.. car was mostly garaged)
54.4480Ah 67.47Hx 10/30/14
54.2380Ah 66.93Hx 11/3/14
54.1724Ah 66.74Hx 11/4/14
53.8379Ah 65.93Hx this morning. 12 bars
53.8248Ah 65.88Hx this afternoon, 11 bars :(

That's one sticky bar.
 
GregH said:
Grumble.. 12th bar finally left me this afternoon. 24092 miles, 21 months.
Returning from lunch I had 11/12 energy bars but this evening what looked like 12/12 was actually 11/11.. wah :(
Despite all my efforts here in Irvine, CA (about 12mi from the coast) to keep the battery cool (or at least <25C or 5 temp bars) it is finally gone.
I had been watching the Ah capacity drift down
55.86Ah 71Hx early June
55.65Ah 70Hx early July
55.63Ah 70Hx mid/early August
54.67Ah 68Hx mid/late October 23800mi. (didn't drive much in Sept/Oct.. car was mostly garaged)
54.4480Ah 67.47Hx 10/30/14
54.2380Ah 66.93Hx 11/3/14
54.1724Ah 66.74Hx 11/4/14
53.8379Ah 65.93Hx this morning. 12 bars
53.8248Ah 65.88Hx this afternoon, 11 bars :(

That's one sticky bar.

I have my LeafDD set to show Ahrs with GIDs shown in a much smaller font. As a result I can monitor
when the 12th bar drops as I drive. It consistently drops at about 52.5 - 53.3 Ahrs. Presently at 13K,
the 100% SOC via the LeafDD indicates 56.5 Ahrs, which started at about 60.5 Ahrs. Based on these
data, expected bar 12 drop is at 23-24K miles. The vehicle rarely 'saw' temps exceeding 90-95 degrees
its summer.
 
Hello dear people,

here are the data from a 2014 LEAF driven in Ireland, EU - where the weather is never hot:

Odo = 13,963 km (8,676 miles)
AHr = 57.3
SOH = 87%
Hx = 86.15%
 
GregH said:
Grumble.. 12th bar finally left me this afternoon. 24092 miles, 21 months.
<snip>
54.4480Ah 67.47Hx 10/30/14
54.2380Ah 66.93Hx 11/3/14
54.1724Ah 66.74Hx 11/4/14
53.8379Ah 65.93Hx this morning. 12 bars
53.8248Ah 65.88Hx this afternoon, 11 bars :(

That's one sticky bar.
Is it a sticky bar or are our LEAFs losing their 12th bars at a lower Ah than they were previously (before the update)? It seems that in the past most owners were losing their 12th bars between 55.25 and 55.75Ah.

Our LEAF is currently sitting at 54.47Ah and about 66Hx (up from 54.42Ah, where it has been for a couple of weeks), but the 12th bar is still there. Mileage is about the same as GregH's: 23,000+ miles. (And, FWIW, P3227 was installed on our LEAF about 6.5 months ago.)

Since 54Ah represents over 18% loss, it seems that the BMS may not be using the 15% number that it did previously. That would certainly reduce the warranty claims! Or perhaps the thresholds are individualized for each car based upon the initial capacity measured by the BMS?
 
2015 - a bit over 2k miles in a bit over a month.




I rarely run it "empty" as I have been taking advantage of the No Charge to Charge. As this is my 2nd EV (used to own a Solectria) I got used to "opportunity charging as you can see from the number of Level 2 Charges.

We have taken a few long trips and that is where the QC's came in. HX when I first got it was around 102% and is now showing almost 105%

I suspect that the BMS is learning at an accelerated rate in addition to getting more opportunities to level the charge.

We took the Leaf from Surprise AZ to south of Tucson and the longest leg was Casa Grande to Surprise (about 80 miles) and I was still showing 12 miles on the guess-o-meter.
 
RegGuheert said:
GregH said:
Grumble.. 12th bar finally left me this afternoon. 24092 miles, 21 months.
<snip>
54.4480Ah 67.47Hx 10/30/14
54.2380Ah 66.93Hx 11/3/14
54.1724Ah 66.74Hx 11/4/14
53.8379Ah 65.93Hx this morning. 12 bars
53.8248Ah 65.88Hx this afternoon, 11 bars :(

That's one sticky bar.
Is it a sticky bar or are our LEAFs losing their 12th bars at a lower Ah than they were previously (before the update)? It seems that in the past most owners were losing their 12th bars between 55.25 and 55.75Ah.

Our LEAF is currently sitting at 54.47Ah and about 66Hx (up from 54.42Ah, where it has been for a couple of weeks), but the 12th bar is still there. Mileage is about the same as GregH's: 23,000+ miles. (And, FWIW, P3227 was installed on our LEAF about 6.5 months ago.)

Since 54Ah represents over 18% loss, it seems that the BMS may not be using the 15% number that it did previously. That would certainly reduce the warranty claims! Or perhaps the thresholds are individualized for each car based upon the initial capacity measured by the BMS?

Check where the 12th bar drops as you drive, e.g. ~ 53Ah, and most likely that's where the loss will
occur. My 2013 started at about 60-61Ah and now at 13K is at 57Ah. My 12th bar drops at about
53.5Ah, so I expect to lose the 12th bar at about 25K-26K.
 
Down four capacity bars, eight to go...
December 9, 2014
86,400 miles
43 months ownership
Manufactured 3/2011
42.61 Ahr
64% SOH
43.79 Hx
100% charge ~180Gids
 
91040 said:
Down four capacity bars, eight to go...
Well done, though you still have some catching up to do to get to TickTock. ;)

What are your longer term plans for the car? Drive the pack into the ground until range is insufficient?

My 80% charge is at 180 GIDs now, not looking forward to when 100% is only 180 GIDs, only have about 40 miles range to LBW on a 80% charge and around 50 miles range to LBW on a 100% charge.

3.5 years, 34.5k miles, 51.4 Ah, 208/180 GIDs @ 100/80%, 2 bars down.
 
At this point, planning to drive it until it becomes too inconvenient then buy a replacement battery. Like TickTock, curious to see how the battery will behave.
 
Reporting another loss...
The 2nd capacity bar retired for good a couple of days ago.
51.6 Ahr
Gids: 220 @100% charge
46,500 miles & 39 months.

At this rate I'll lose one bar next fall/winter and another during the fall/winter of 2016. On track to miss the degradation warranty. I'm hopeful nissan will do the right thing for all gen 1 owners.
 
91040 said:
At this point, planning to drive it until it becomes too inconvenient then buy a replacement battery. Like TickTock, curious to see how the battery will behave.
Please do report how performance is impacted beyond bar 4 loss for those of us who are unlikely to qualify for warranty replacement and are wondering about what to expect after the battery pack has degraded beyond the established "End of Life" capacity point of 66%.

Thx,
TT
 
Hi Everyone, is this normal after 6 months for 2015 S+QC? I could only charge up to 20.7 kw. When It was new it was 22.7 kw from Leaf Spy Pro. 260 GID at 100% charge. Lowest reading was 56.35 AHr SOH 91% Hx 86.95. I also notice using QC will increase AHr and Hx slightly.

Current Reading
57.63 AHr
SOH 92%
Hx 88.38%
7437 miles
62 QC
84 L1/L2
 
Back
Top