Post Your Battery Degradation Results

[co2112]

Bought car 6/3/15, 11 bars 25,000 miles
Lost second bar 10/3/15. 28,300 mi.

Today 1/20/16, 30,834 miles 55 QCs, 1550 L1/L2s
211 gids
94.5% soc (100%)
49.78 AHr
16.4 kWh
75% SOH
56.19% Hx
392.36V

I have no idea what this really means because I thought I would have lost bar three by now. Does the 16.4 kWh mean I have lost 31.7% total battery capacity from new? Or is this usable capacity not reserved for system or VLP from the 20 kWh usable new capacity, did I ask that right?

 

[finman100]

I believe it's accepted that 22 kWh is the 'usable' energy for a new leaf. So 16.4 is what the battery can hold right now. so those are the numbers...and doing the math would show about 25% loss.

 

[dhanson865]

Bought car 6/3/15, 11 bars 25,000 miles
Lost second bar 10/3/15. 28,300 mi.

Today 1/20/16, 30,834 miles 55 QCs, 1550 L1/L2s
211 gids
94.5% soc (100%)
49.78 AHr
16.4 kWh
75% SOH
56.19% Hx
392.36V

I have no idea what this really means because I thought I would have lost bar three by now. Does the 16.4 kWh mean I have lost 31.7% total battery capacity from new? Or is this usable capacity not reserved for system or VLP from the 20 kWh usable new capacity, did I ask that right?

SOH% is the easiest way to look at it. Assume it started at 100% and you are now at 75%

 

[dhanson865]

I believe it's accepted that 22 kWh is the 'usable' energy for a new leaf. So 16.4 is what the battery can hold right now. so those are the numbers...and doing the math would show about 25% loss.

I think the number thrown around is closer to 21.4 kWh but still the SOH% shows 25% loss so I'd just go with the easy percentage.

 

[Evoforce]

*****************Leaf 1 +New lizard+ battery**************


AHr 66.14
SOH 100%
SOC 90.05%
Hx 100.1%
GIDs 271
393.72V
21.0 kWh
odo 39,275 mi
22 QC & 1417 L1/L2


****************Leaf 2 with a 13 month lizard battery***********


AHr 56.19
SOH 88%
SOC 90.8%
Hx 82.15%
GIDs 239
394.30V
18.5 kWh
odo 30,500 mi
40 QC & 1869 L1/L2


Leaf 2 starting with new battery in Dec 2014 had previously been tracking against Leaf 1 with original battery until this replacement date of 1/20/16. During that time, Leaf 2 was previously known as (lizard Car) and Leaf 1 was previously known as (10 bar) (9bar) (8 bar) car.

 

[tkdbrusco]

*****************New lizard battery for Leaf 1**************


AHr 66.14
SOH 100%
SOC 90.05%
Hx 100.1%
GIDs 271
393.72V
21.0 kWh
odo 39,275 mi
22 QC & 1417 L1/L2


****************Leaf 2 with a 13 month lizard battery***********


AHr 56.19
SOH 88%
SOC 90.8%
Hx 82.15%
GIDs 239
394.30V
18.5 kWh
odo 30,500 mi
40 QC & 1869 L1/L2


Leaf 2 starting with new battery in Dec 2014 had previously been tracking against Leaf 1 with original battery until this replacement date of 1/20/16. During that time, Leaf 2 was previously known as (lizard Car) and Leaf 1 was previously known as (10 bar) (9bar) (8 bar) car.

Do you have confirmation from Nissan that Leaf 2 got a new Lizard pack? I think this is the first sub 240 Gids reading we've seen on a Lizard? Please keep us posted as to when that first bar drops. It is interesting that you are at 239 Gids and still have 12/12 on that car. However the Ahr is higher than is would normally be for a 239 reading. Starting at 292 as a 100% Gids reading you'd think that the first bar would drop at somewhere about 245? Makes me think that something fishy is happening with the Lizard pack and hidden capacity/reserve? Its like the BMS knows that it is holding something back and that it will pick back up when it warms up.

 

[fooljoe]

*****************New lizard battery for Leaf 1**************


AHr 66.14
SOH 100%
SOC 90.05%
...

I noticed both your "100% charge" SOCs are around 90%. At what SOC did you start the charges? Post P3227 update the Leaf will only do a full "100% charge" (to around 95% SOC) if you start from a relatively low SOC (think at least less than 50%, preferably lower). Can you run the batteries down a bit lower before charging and re-post the results?

 

[Beardedjeff]

2013 SV
Bought 10/2015 w/12xxx miles

Currently:
16,143mi
64.39AHr
SOH = 98%
HX = 98.67%
379.5V

5QC's (of which I did 3 the day I bought it to get it home from Chicago to Milwaukee)
818 L1/L2

 

[Evoforce]

See post below

 

[Evoforce]

*****************New lizard battery for Leaf 1**************


AHr 66.14
SOH 100%
SOC 90.05%
...

I noticed both your "100% charge" SOCs are around 90%. At what SOC did you start the charges? Post P3227 update the Leaf will only do a full "100% charge" (to around 95% SOC) if you start from a relatively low SOC (think at least less than 50%, preferably lower). Can you run the batteries down a bit lower before charging and re-post the results?

These 2011 with lizard batteries are actually charging to their highest level. If it were hot here now they would only be charging to around 87ish-89ish SOC. It actually appears this is what is normal for this situation. Doesn't matter if it is completely discharged then recharged. This has been a discussion in the past. Maybe even in this very thread. I don't know why, but it does seem to me maybe more is held in reserve.

It does seem to have a lot of miles at the bottom past the red bars. I do not know why and so far it has only been speculation. I feel like I want it to show higher GIDs and SOC but it doesn't seem that the numbers are the same in 2011 with lizard as compared to 2015 with the identical packs.

The 13-15 are a larger pack configuration compared to original 11-12. Batteries with more energy density? Hence why an additional bracket is needed on the retrofit. I can only surmise that there is somehow a slight software difference and how it processes the info from the BMS or it is a slightly different BMS than an original 2011 thus showing slightly different numbers as it interacts with 2011 software.

I speculate they may have given the 13-15 packs slightly more energy density per cell to boost the EPA rating and still only allowing the car to charge behind the curtain to high 80's-to low 90ish SOC. The software on the 13-15 must have been changed to show a higher percent charge and GIDs while they also removed the 80% charge parameter cabin switch while also providing slightly more energy density. So it appears that the software on 13-15 is telling folks that it is charging into the mid to high 90's when it is truly only charging to high 80's as compared to 11-12. Thus providing a silent charge buffer for 13-15 with slightly higher density cells while increasing the EPA rating by telling people that they now no longer need to charge to 80% and removed the cabin switch.

So, if we were to put a 30kWh into it...

 

[tkdbrusco]

*****************New lizard battery for Leaf 1**************


AHr 66.14
SOH 100%
SOC 90.05%
...

I noticed both your "100% charge" SOCs are around 90%. At what SOC did you start the charges? Post P3227 update the Leaf will only do a full "100% charge" (to around 95% SOC) if you start from a relatively low SOC (think at least less than 50%, preferably lower). Can you run the batteries down a bit lower before charging and re-post the results?

Good catch! I totally missed that. My 2015 has always read between 97.1-97.3% at 100% charge. If you extrapolate out the GIDS from the extra 7 or so percent, you have a number of 259, which seems more on par with the rest of the readings. It could be that the Lizards are doing just fine in a 2011 car, but the MBS is changing the appearance of that. My data is seeming to indicate that the Lizard has close to 1 kWh more capacity than the original 2011 pack. It is being hidden in there, shifted around based on temp and eaten away at with degradation. This could explain the discrepancy.

 

[fooljoe]

If it were hot here now they would only be charging to around 187ish-189ish.

That sounds crazy - 187-189 GIDs corresponds to ~65% SOC. If my car only got up to 65% SOC after a "100% charge" with a new battery I'd be heading straight to the dealer. Although I guess I can't speak for what it's like to be in AZ heat. How hot are you talking about? And what are the temps like now?

I, too, have a 2011 with a new Lizard battery (got it in November), and I get roughly the same stats as you if I start my 100% charge from a high SOC (sometimes I'll do an 80% charge then decide to "top it off"), with the charge finishing at around 90% SOC. But when starting from a low SOC (haven't done this many times yet as I'm so used to a degraded battery I've mostly become an 80%-er) I've so far seen up to 278 GIDs, and I think it might get a little higher as the weather warms.

 

[Evoforce]

If it were hot here now they would only be charging to around 187ish-189ish.

That sounds crazy - 187-189 GIDs corresponds to ~65% SOC. If my car only got up to 65% SOC after a "100% charge" with a new battery I'd be heading straight to the dealer. Although I guess I can't speak for what it's like to be in AZ heat. How hot are you talking about? And what are the temps like now?

I, too, have a 2011 with a new Lizard battery (got it in November), and I get roughly the same stats as you if I start my 100% charge from a high SOC (sometimes I'll do an 80% charge then decide to "top it off"), with the charge finishing at around 90% SOC. But when starting from a low SOC (haven't done this many times yet as I'm so used to a degraded battery I've mostly become an 80%-er) I've so far seen up to 278 GIDs, and I think it might get a little higher as the weather warms.

No, I was not talking GIDs with that number but SOC of 87ish to 89ish in the hot summer months but charges to low 90ish SOC in the winter cooler months. I could have been more clear with that so I edited it in the post also plus as you correctly posted below I inadvertently added a 1 in front of my SOC numbers.

 

[fooljoe]

No, I was not talking GIDs with that number but SOC of 187ish to 189ish in the hot summer months but charges to low 190ish SOC in the winter cooler months. I could have been more clear with that so I edited it in the post also.

:? SOC is a percentage from 0-100. I'm not sure what number you could be referencing if it's on a GID-like scale (~0-290) but not GIDs...

 

[Evoforce]

No, I was not talking GIDs with that number but SOC of 187ish to 189ish in the hot summer months but charges to low 190ish SOC in the winter cooler months. I could have been more clear with that so I edited it in the post also.

:? SOC is a percentage from 0-100. I'm not sure what number you could be referencing if it's on a GID-like scale (~0-290) but not GIDs...

You are going to keep me on the ball aren't you? Yes I accidently added a one on to those numbers and thanks for the good catch. It didn't make sense with an additional 1 on the numbers. But it was still a work in progress... I think my final editing is done unless I missed something else. :lol:

 

[Evoforce]

*****************New lizard battery for Leaf 1**************


AHr 66.14
SOH 100%
SOC 90.05%
Hx 100.1%
GIDs 271
393.72V
21.0 kWh
odo 39,275 mi
22 QC & 1417 L1/L2


****************Leaf 2 with a 13 month lizard battery***********


AHr 56.19
SOH 88%
SOC 90.8%
Hx 82.15%
GIDs 239
394.30V
18.5 kWh
odo 30,500 mi
40 QC & 1869 L1/L2


Leaf 2 starting with new battery in Dec 2014 had previously been tracking against Leaf 1 with original battery until this replacement date of 1/20/16. During that time, Leaf 2 was previously known as (lizard Car) and Leaf 1 was previously known as (10 bar) (9bar) (8 bar) car.

Do you have confirmation from Nissan that Leaf 2 got a new Lizard pack? I think this is the first sub 240 Gids reading we've seen on a Lizard? Please keep us posted as to when that first bar drops. It is interesting that you are at 239 Gids and still have 12/12 on that car. However the Ahr is higher than is would normally be for a 239 reading. Starting at 292 as a 100% Gids reading you'd think that the first bar would drop at somewhere about 245? Makes me think that something fishy is happening with the Lizard pack and hidden capacity/reserve? Its like the BMS knows that it is holding something back and that it will pick back up when it warms up.

Both are definitely lizard batteries with the correct part numbers. This is only the second charge reading on the new lizard and they may go up? I also believe extra capacity is not being shown because the SOC will only go to 90% on each car at most while others are getting 97% on 2015 Leafs

 

[dhanson865]

No, I was not talking GIDs with that number but SOC of 187ish to 189ish in the hot summer months but charges to low 190ish SOC in the winter cooler months. I could have been more clear with that so I edited it in the post also.

:? SOC is a percentage from 0-100. I'm not sure what number you could be referencing if it's on a GID-like scale (~0-290) but not GIDs...

There is more than one SOC%.

There is an internal SOC% used by the computer systems inside the Leaf and you can get that number from leafspy.

The other is the dash SOC% and it shows true in the middle but fudges on a curve at the top and bottom of the pack.

100% from leafspy is not the same as 100% from dash.

I'm not sure why anyone would care about SOC% when discussing degradation.

Test your battery at 25% SOC, 50% SOC, 75% SOC and you'll get pretty much no change in SOH%, AHr, HX. Any difference in those is due to the inaccuracy of the equipment measuring those numbers moreso than the SOC%.

 

[Evoforce]

I think it is because of the feeling that if you could charge the pack instead of 87%ish, to 97%ish instead, based on Leafspy that it could also improve your other stats like GIDs etc. My cars only charge to 87%ish-89%ish in the summer and this is the highest I've seen at 90%ish lending to a less than hot temperature outside. Others are able to appear to get more energy in their packs which may improve stats. If you noticed when my car dropped to eight bars it was 2nd to lowest AHr reading of 41.79 on the wiki list of losers as well at 63% SOH compared to others with a higher SOH when they dropped to 8 bars. This car may just generally show lower stats overall. The new pack readings seem lower as well which lends to the theory.

 

[fooljoe]

The other is the dash SOC% and it shows true in the middle but fudges on a curve at the top and bottom of the pack.

We're talking 2011s here, no such thing as dash SOC.

I'm not sure why anyone would care about SOC% when discussing degradation.

Some people like to discuss degradation in terms of "max GIDs", which, while much less consistent a measure than Ah or SOH, is more directly relatable to range - and might also serve as a way to compare different versions of Leaf batteries. But if you choose to go this route, it's important to note the SOC at which you're measuring those max GIDs, as things like temperature and starting SOC can influence the "full" SOC.

 

[DaveEV]

The 13-15 are a larger pack configuration compared to original 11-12.

This is simply not true. The '13-15 LEAF modules are exactly the same size as the '11-12 LEAF modules. And they are lighter than the '13-15 LEAF modules.

Ignore the variance in SOC% when charging to "100%". It simply varies a decent amount, especially if you charge from above 80% to 100% - it won't get to the normal ~95% reported SOC. The LBC gets confused.

Instead of looking at the SOC%, just look at the pack voltage. If it's 393-394V at rest you're good and have 100% charge. Now, the '13+ LEAFs will charge to a slightly higher pack voltage than the '11-12 LEAFs - primarily because they will spend a decent amount of time topping off the pack where the '11-12 LEAFs cut off pretty quick once the charge rate gets down under 1000W or so, but the '13+ LEAFs will spend quite a bit of time pushing in a few hundred watts. As a result, the pack voltage will typically be about 1V higher than the earlier LEAFs.