Portable 120/240 Autodetecting Charger $700

[TonyWilliams]

there for low line voltage so that you don't trip the breaker if you power provider is doing conservation voltage reduction. Plus if a breaker is old it may trip at 28 amps and not 30. 26 amps gets you pretty close to full capacity for a 6.6 kW charger.

Why do you seem to be stuck with a 30 amp breaker? What if I run it on a 40 amp breaker? Now, I have no problem going to 32 amps.

Yes, those cables for the J1772 are typically 30 amp max, and so is an L6-30 (if that's what you're using).

So, making those assumptions, virtually anybody could run 30 amps who had access to a breaker at 40 amps.

 

[mitch672]

jwallace, checkout the picture of the OpenEVSE being used to charge the Plug in Prius on the OpenEVSE homepage, that's mine, and I built my OpenEVSE to be portable with a 30A limit, uses the ITT J-1772 cable assembly (30A), and is wired with an L6-30P plug on 10/3 SJO cable... Like I said, it's been done. You can checkout my build on this link: http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/EVSE_by_mwolrich" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Chris did a really nice job at making the electronics/PCB very compact.

 

[jwallace3]

jwallace, checkout the picture of the OpenEVSE being used to charge the Plug in Prius on the OpenEVSE homepage, that's mine, and I built my OpenEVSE to be portable with a 30A limit, uses the ITT J-1772 cable assembly (30A), and is wired with an L6-30P plug on 10/3 SJO cable... Like I said, it's been done. You can checkout my build on this link: http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/EVSE_by_mwolrich" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Chris did a really nice job at making the electronics/PCB very compact.

Absolutely it can be done. But from a production standpoint there are more rules you have to follow. I am using the connectors you stated so to be to code those can't be exceeded. They will tolerate higher current rates, but a production model can't touch them or it will never pass any sort of UL certification. If this were going to be only for me I could push those NEC codes safely. The source end needs to be a twistlock for safety reasons so I am limited to the 30 amp threshold. Unless the outlet is on a GFCI breaker (and probably isn't) there isn't any protection against electric shock on that end of the cable. If the circuit happens to be 208 instead of 240 or the single phase voltage drops to 110V or below then I will need to exceed 30 amps in order to allow for 6.6kW charging. Given the tolerance in the standard for the PWM signal we could get close to 30 amps, but to do it and not trip a 30 amp breaker is questionable. NEC says you need to size the breaker for the cable, so using a 40 amp breaker with 10 Ga wire technically is breaking the NEC code. Can it be done? Sure, there are still houses wired with 100 amp fuses for the main and that's it. Any 16 gauge circuit has the ability to pull 100 amps, which is why they burn down after the mice eat the cloth insulation.

So, in short, for liability reasons and code getting a full 6.6kW with our model may not be possible. I'm not saying we can't, there is just some more homework to be done so that we make sure we are safe legally.

 

[jwallace3]

there for low line voltage so that you don't trip the breaker if you power provider is doing conservation voltage reduction. Plus if a breaker is old it may trip at 28 amps and not 30. 26 amps gets you pretty close to full capacity for a 6.6 kW charger.

Why do you seem to be stuck with a 30 amp breaker? What if I run it on a 40 amp breaker? Now, I have no problem going to 32 amps.

Yes, those cables for the J1772 are typically 30 amp max, and so is an L6-30 (if that's what you're using).

So, making those assumptions, virtually anybody could run 30 amps who had access to a breaker at 40 amps.

How in the world did you get to 32 amps? There isn't a car that can charge at that rate yet that I'm aware of and that would take one hell of a power resistor to dispate that energy if you used a test setup.

 

[TonyWilliams]

How in the world did you get to 32 amps? There isn't a car that can charge at that rate yet that I'm aware of and that would take one hell of a power resistor to dispate that energy if you used a test setup.

Not sure if you're kidding, or just that far removed from the EV market.

240 * 30 / 32 = 7.2kW to 7.7k, or what a BMW ActiceE can pull right now with a J1772.

Due this summer, Rav4 and Tesla S, both with 10kW chargers. Actually, Tesla can have 20kW, over the J1772 limit.

 

[jwallace3]

I will say thanks for all the feedback. Most of you on here are savvy enough to build your own charger. Either from scratch or open source. This is more for the folks who aren't. All things aside, does $700 sound like a reasonable price for a production model? UL listing is probably going to run us around $20K so it would have to be spread over a couple thousand units to not kill the profit margin.

 

[jwallace3]

How in the world did you get to 32 amps? There isn't a car that can charge at that rate yet that I'm aware of and that would take one hell of a power resistor to dispate that energy if you used a test setup.

Not sure if you're kidding, or just that far removed from the EV market.

240 * 30 / 32 = 7.2kW to 7.7k, or what a BMW ActiceE can pull right now with a J1772.

Due this summer, Rav4 and Tesla S, both with 10kW chargers. Actually, Tesla can have 20kW, over the J1772 limit.

I know most manufacturers are coming out with EVs this next year and that a few others besides Nissan have some out. Since I leased my LEAF last year I haven't really looked at others much besides the Testla model S. I can't get another until my lease is up in 2.5 more years. I wasn't aware that the BMW pulled that much. A little out of my price range. Chances are if you can afford that you will have a charger installed everywhere you want. Once again, this is for a portable charging solution to give you more zip than a L1. Not an unmounted full size and full function ESVE. Cheap, portable, 2-3 times faster than L1. Most people don't even have a 40 - 50 amp outlet in their house except for the oven. Even dryers are mostly 30 amp or less.

 

[mitch672]

I will say thanks for all the feedback. Most of you on here are savvy enough to build your own charger. Either from scratch or open source. This is more for the folks who aren't. All things aside, does $700 sound like a reasonable price for a production model? UL listing is probably going to run us around $20K so it would have to be spread over a couple thousand units to not kill the profit margin.

You can look at my build, cost was around $550, with the most expensive component being the J-1772 cable assembly.. You have to look at the market, you are (partially) competing with Phil from evseupgrade.com who will modify your Nissan L1 EVSE for under $300, other than that most EVSE's are in the $700-800 range (excluding the crap that SPX makes for Volt owners for $495, built with 16AWG wiring - no joke)

 

[jwallace3]

I will say thanks for all the feedback. Most of you on here are savvy enough to build your own charger. Either from scratch or open source. This is more for the folks who aren't. All things aside, does $700 sound like a reasonable price for a production model? UL listing is probably going to run us around $20K so it would have to be spread over a couple thousand units to not kill the profit margin.

You can look at my build, cost was around $550, with the most expensive component being the J-1772 cable assembly.. You have to look at the market, you are (partially) competing with Phil from evseupgrade.com who will modify your Nissan L1 EVSE for under $300, other than that most EVSE's are in the $700-800 range (excluding the crap that SPX makes for Volt owners for $495, built with 16AWG wiring - no joke)

Our build cost was less around $400, but I had free labor, it hasn't been UL listed yet, PCBs were made in house so that cost wasn't tracked, and other little components such as transistors, resistors, etc weren't tracked because they had them in stock. Plus the housing for our next model will be a different, possibly custom enclosure. So there are a lot of items to be tracked and finalized before we set a price, but that is the target right now. I dont' think you can buy very many L2s at the moment for that.

We probably will end up making a mountable unit for public use. We already have a customer that wants several in their parking lots so those may get the full set of features.

 

[davewill]

... does $700 sound like a reasonable price for a production model? ...

It does, but I don't think it will sell well. The LEAF owners who want a 240v portable solution can get the upgrade too cheaply.

 

[jwallace3]

... does $700 sound like a reasonable price for a production model? ...

It does, but I don't think it will sell well. The LEAF owners who want a 240v portable solution can get the upgrade too cheaply.

That could be the case, but it's a worth while exercise. For those of us leasing we would have to buy another charger to get modified, plus if someone didn't feel comfortable with the mod or isn't on this site, they may prefer to opt for something else.

 

[GRA]

For someone like me who's primary need is touring beyond the un-recharged range, a portable EVSE that could be used at as high a power rating as possible would be very useful. 3.3kW is better than nothing for that purpose, but that's all. However, lacking L3 most of the en route opportunity charging on trips will likely happen at RV parks with 240V/50A circuits, and I'd prefer not to limit myself to only 30 or 32 amps if there is a near-term prospect of cars that can charge faster, even if it means more bulky cabling.

 

[smkettner]

I will say thanks for all the feedback. Most of you on here are savvy enough to build your own charger. Either from scratch or open source. This is more for the folks who aren't. All things aside, does $700 sound like a reasonable price for a production model? UL listing is probably going to run us around $20K so it would have to be spread over a couple thousand units to not kill the profit margin.

$700 for a 24 amp portable or wall mountable evse will be the price leader AFAIK.

I would want and optional 25' cord available at reasonable extra cost.

I would also like a wall mount bracket for semi permanent use, extra cost is fine.

 

[TonyWilliams]

You price is competitive, but with plenty of competition for a very small market. The SPX has a selectable amp rating (up to 32 amps) and is portable... but with not so good reputation for build quality and durability.

You might want to check that one out for competition.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I wasn't aware that the BMW pulled that much. A little out of my price range. Chances are if you can afford that you will have a charger installed everywhere you want.

Well, it was only $499 month with unlimited miles and all inclusive maintenance. That payment is cheaper than the loan payment on my LEAF.

Of course, I do have a DC charger being built up right now, and that's something the BMW can't do.

 

[pii100]

I think 700 is reasonable. My portable SPX 32A unit is working just fine and I paid 750 for it. SPX has raised the price to over 900 now.

 

[DTB]

So this is for people who need to destination-charge and also happen to have access to 240 at their destination. You are asking people to buy a 3rd EVSE (in addition to their home unit plus the one that came with the car). I think most who are in this situation would seek the less expensive option to upgrade the portable unit that came with the car.
I think you may have a nice balance of speed, portability, and price but I'd include a home mounting bracket and market it as a detachable home charging unit that can also be taken with you.

 

[jwallace3]

I wasn't aware that the BMW pulled that much. A little out of my price range. Chances are if you can afford that you will have a charger installed everywhere you want.

Well, it was only $499 month with unlimited miles and all inclusive maintenance. That payment is cheaper than the loan payment on my LEAF.

Of course, I do have a DC charger being built up right now, and that's something the BMW can't do.

We are investigating our own portable "fast" charger as well. Wouldn't be the same rate as the one's on the road, but more in the 1-2 hour range using the chademo currently on vehicles like the LEAF, but I think we will wait until the J1772 for L3 is finalized before we jump fully into L3. Some preliminary work will be done in the mean time. At 2 hours it wouldn't be as hard on your battery and could be more affordable, but its all still up in the air at this point.

 

[jwallace3]

For someone like me who's primary need is touring beyond the un-recharged range, a portable EVSE that could be used at as high a power rating as possible would be very useful. 3.3kW is better than nothing for that purpose, but that's all. However, lacking L3 most of the en route opportunity charging on trips will likely happen at RV parks with 240V/50A circuits, and I'd prefer not to limit myself to only 30 or 32 amps if there is a near-term prospect of cars that can charge faster, even if it means more bulky cabling.

You bring up a very valid point. 50 amp outlets are available at most camp grounds. The problem I have isn't the ESVE, its available connectors and safety. At this point it would have to be hardwired into the charger because of the type of connection. There are other 50 amp twist lock connectors that we could use to connect the RV style plug to the charger, but they are super high, so every other pigtail would be super high as well, just because of the plug cost on the ESVE end. At $100-$150 a pigtail that becomes cost prohibitive, but I do see you're point.

Thanks for the input. We will put this on the table and see if we can come up with a competitive option for this.

 

[jwallace3]

To address Smkettner and DTB..... Yes, this is an excellent suggestion. In this case we will have to implement a few other safety items in the final design. After your comments, I'm envisioning something similar to how a plasma/LCD TV mounts on a small set of rails with a lock. Just the first thing that comes to mind. I am a substation design guy so I like DIN rail...lol So more than likely that idea will change as far as mounting/removal goes.

Great suggestion. Will keep in mind for sure and will let you know what our pool of engineers comes up with.