Poll : What is your reaction to 70% / 5 yrs / 60k warranty

[downeykp]

Taylor, you were right in that there were many promises made to range and you, I and others bought a Leaf hoping Nissan's claims would prove to be true. We were duped.

Nissan promised a lot of things. How many of us would have bought this car if they would have claimed a realistic real world range of 60 miles?

When the rest of you get to 60K miles and your LEAF can only go 64 miles to turtle you will not be happy either. You can belittle my situation as an extreme, but I don't think you will feel the same way when it happens to you. I'm just there before you.

While I sympathize with your situation, you are using a pretty broad brush here. For me, 64 miles to turtle would work just fine (not that I want to get there any time soon). If I drop below 50 miles range, that would be a problem for me, but with my driving style that will be at 50% remaining capacity. Everyone has different needs for the range they need to make the Leaf work for them.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Didn't they say the expected loss at 100K miles was 20% in late 2011 and then change it to 30%? Now they offer a warranty that 30% shouldn't be gone in 60K miles? What are they offering here - only a modest effort to get it back to 70%. This is marketing hype - I doubt this warranty will see much action. I'm over 62K miles and about 20% loss. The way I see things, the only way they measure battery loss is with loss of displayed bars - not actual loss of range. Kinda ticked off that I'm already where I expected to be at 100K miles.

All of us now know what the community has determined over the last two years - but it wasn't offered by Nissan when I told everyone that I expected to save the cost of the car with lower operating costs. Instead they have taken my money, and my commute has gone from 70 minutes to over 1-1/2 hours minimum with having to make a QC stop each way so I can complete 65 miles. And then there is the lack of response from Nissan to my request to get a price for replacing the battery - it is only available for warranty repairs and my desire to get a price to avoid the QC stop doesn't qualify.

If any of you know of a way to extend the range (with physical battery expansion or third party replacement) I'd be interested. I don't want to be flamed with all the ways to extend my range by changing my driving route, style or speed.

When the rest of you get to 60K miles and your LEAF can only go 64 miles to turtle you will not be happy either. You can belittle my situation as an extreme, but I don't think you will feel the same way when it happens to you. I'm just there before you.

Man, I feel your pain and the sad part is, the "extreme" part is
you are motivated to buy or exchange for cost to get back to 100% AND its been two years and they still dont have a price on a battery or any other option here.

This should change when TN battery plant fills the supply pipeline but really have to question a 2+ year timeline for this?

 

[LEAFfan]

...I'm over 62K miles and about 20% loss. The way I see things, the only way they measure battery loss is with loss of displayed bars - not actual loss of range. Kinda ticked off that I'm already where I expected to be at 100K miles...

So, you fell pretty sure of that 20% loss, but still haven't lost a capacity bar?

That would be another anecdotal report that capacity bar loss (and gid counts) seem to under-report capacity loss in cooler climates, in contrast to their documented tendency to over-report capacity loss in hotter climates.

Which, IMO, is another reason why we should be demanding that Nissan correct the "gauge problem", so that each of us can monitor our own battery capacity in kWh with reasonable accuracy.

Your problem, of course, is that being over 60k miles, the capacity warranty won't help you, no matter how many bars your dash displays.

Which is why Nissan can only help you, by announcing the cost for pack replacement ASAP.

I can tell you for certain that if Taylor is using a meter to get his 20% loss, then he's right on the edge of losing a CB. Every car I've tested, and I've checked many, read 80-81% on my BCM just a day or two before a bar was lost. But because he has cooler weather now, it may not go lower until the heat comes again.

 

[Deleted member 7875]

Sucks. 70 percent of 60 miles in the winter is only 36 miles. Not enough range for a car without backup ICE.

And it is a SLAP IN THE FACE that if your capacity dropped to 69 percent, the warrantee would only restore you back to 70 percent insufficient range.

 

[cwerdna]

Sucks. 70 percent of 60 miles in the winter is only 36 miles.

My math says it's 42 miles.

 

[sparky]

Taylor, you were right in that there were many promises made to range and you, I and others bought a Leaf hoping Nissan's claims would prove to be true. We were duped.

Nissan promised a lot of things. How many of us would have bought this car if they would have claimed a realistic real world range of 60 miles?

When the rest of you get to 60K miles and your LEAF can only go 64 miles to turtle you will not be happy either. You can belittle my situation as an extreme, but I don't think you will feel the same way when it happens to you. I'm just there before you.

While I sympathize with your situation, you are using a pretty broad brush here. For me, 64 miles to turtle would work just fine (not that I want to get there any time soon). If I drop below 50 miles range, that would be a problem for me, but with my driving style that will be at 50% remaining capacity. Everyone has different needs for the range they need to make the Leaf work for them.

I'm neutral on the warranty because it's vague as hell and seems like just more marketing spin. As mentioned by others here, "bars" are a construct of Nissan's software and have no unambiguous physical definition.
NIssan "promised" me capacity loss by requiring I sign a document acknowledging that effect and explicitly not covering it with the 36 month warranty. I hope this new "warranty" is just a first step by Nissan and all EV OEMs begin to consider a path to replacing lost capacity for those owners that can't handle significant range loss. There is an opportunity for some creative thinking by both sides.

I would be fine with this warranty (based on useable kWh, not bars) pro-rated so I can pay x-amount to restore my range back to some level for some amount of $ after x-years.
But, I bought the LEAF with a requirement for a 30 mi commute (10-12k mi/yr) and based on my 2-years ownership, I expect it will handle that for quite some time.
My next EV will probably be a Tesla. It will have more range and a more reliable battery. These features will cost me much $$. In fact, I'll get 3x the range in my Tesla for 3x the cost of my LEAF.
Of course, like the LEAF, I won't get the Tesla advertised 230 miles of range without hypermiling. And this figure will decrease with age/miles/cycles.

 

[dhanson865]

Sucks. 70 percent of 60 miles in the winter is only 36 miles.

My math says it's 42 miles.

Yep 6 * 7 has equaled 42 for millions of years. I'm not sure why people get that little bit of math wrong.

 

[Herm]

If any of you know of a way to extend the range (with physical battery expansion or third party replacement) I'd be interested.

I think the only way is to sell your Leaf and get another one, before that 12th bar is gone.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Of course, like the LEAF, I won't get the Tesla advertised 230 miles of range without hypermiling. And this figure will decrease with age/miles/cycles.

Not exactly. A Tesla Model S-60 will go 230 miles at 55mph. The S-85 will go 300 miles at 55mph. They state that right on their website:

http://www.teslamotors.com/models" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A brand new LEAF will run 100 miles at 50mph. What's different from the Tesla, or virtually any other EV on the market, is the loss of battery capacity with any battery temperature below 70F/20C, and the rapid loss of capacity in heat. That's primarily because it doesn't have TMS.

So, a Volt, Rav4 or Tesla may meet those range parameters next year or two, few LEAFs will.

But, ya, maybe 50/55mph is hypermiling in many urban areas !!!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Sucks. 70 percent of 60 miles in the winter is only 36 miles.

My math says it's 42 miles.

Yep 6 * 7 has equaled 42 for millions of years. I'm not sure why people get that little bit of math wrong.

Because it's actually 6 * 9 = 42





.... in base 13

 

[sparky]

Of course, like the LEAF, I won't get the Tesla advertised 230 miles of range without hypermiling. And this figure will decrease with age/miles/cycles.

Not exactly. A Tesla Model S-60 will go 230 miles at 55mph. The S-85 will go 300 miles at 55mph. They state that right on their website:

http://www.teslamotors.com/models" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A brand new LEAF will run 100 miles at 50mph. What's different from the Tesla, or virtually any other EV on the market, is the loss of battery capacity with any battery temperature below 70F/20C, and the rapid loss of capacity in heat. That's primarily because it doesn't have TMS.

So, a Volt, Rav4 or Tesla may meet those range parameters next year or two, few LEAFs will.

But, ya, maybe 50/55mph is hypermiling in many urban areas !!!

Come on now, the big font 300/230 mi range figure is marketing hype, plain and simple. It's just a lower level of b.s. relative to Nissan's pants-on-fire 100 mi nonsense.
Believe me, I read the website before sending my $5K.
Constant speed (such as using cruise control)
Flat ground, no wind
Climate control OFF or using vent only (no heat or air conditioning)
300 lbs of vehicle load (driver plus passenger or cargo)
Windows up, sunroof closed
Tires inflated to recommended pressures
New battery pack (<1 year, <25,000 miles)


Nissan had a similar table on their website for those willing to search.

Add "normal" driving, inclement weather, a wet road, a few hills and, any Model S owner expecting 230/300 mi will quickly be disappointed. My point was that Tesla is also guilty of promoting range fantasy.
Now that the EPA figures are out, I think they should go with those (208/265).

 

[Deleted member 7875]

Sucks. 70 percent of 60 miles in the winter is only 36 miles.

My math says it's 42 miles.

Yes, 42 miles, but still not enough.

At least I got two out of three mathmatical operations right:
1. 10 percent of 60 = 6 is correct.
2. 3 x 6 = 24, WRONG!
3. 60 - 24 = 36, correct.

Probably the same menal issue that caused me not to pass the PE exam.

 

[TonyWilliams]

My point was that Tesla is also guilty of promoting range fantasy.
Now that the EPA figures are out, I think they should go with those (208/265).

Well, sure, 300 miles is fantasy for Joe SixPack... except I'll be more people drive 300 miles in a Model S-85 than those who drive 100 miles in a LEAF (at the same ratio of the respective fleets).

To my knowledge, folks are only really getting 230-240 miles in normal driving, so the EPA 265 is a stretch, too.

Most people can easily beat 73 EPA LEAF miles, at least for the first year (without the heater on).

 

[mdh]

I think this is net-fantastic. I am sure with time, Nissan will bend even more on a case-by-case basis now that something directional is happening. The dealership will also be able to lobby HQ on gray-area-situations.

 

[evnow]

Come on now, the big font 300/230 mi range figure is marketing hype, plain and simple. It's just a lower level of b.s. relative to Nissan's pants-on-fire 100 mi nonsense.

Hmmm ... Nissan always talked about 100 miles in LA4 cycle on their website. BTW, they even got more than 100 miles combined in the EPA 2 cycle test. The exact test EPA would use was not known when Leaf was announced - and the 30% adjustment factor they used came as a surprise to everyone.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

 

[dhanson865]

Yep 6 * 7 has equaled 42 for millions of years. I'm not sure why people get that little bit of math wrong.

Because it's actually 6 * 9 = 42





.... in base 13

[/quote]

Douglas Adams later joked about this observation, saying, "I may be a sorry case, but I don't write jokes in base 13."

 

[WetEV]

How many of us would have bought this car if they would have claimed a realistic real world range of 60 miles?

I didn't buy until mid-2012. I might have bought sooner if there was less hype.

I think the realistic range is less than 60 miles, at least for the daily routine. Sure, with a new car on a good day 60 miles is easy.

Consider the following:

At the usual EOL, the battery is at 70%
Battery life will be far better at lower DOD "Depth Of Discharge".
Low temperatures reduces energy storage. This is a variable, depending on where you live, of course.
Battery power is needed for defrost etc.
Speed reduces range. This is a variable. A mostly back roads commute and a freeway commute are rather different.

So take the EPA range number to start with, and assume that is a fair indication of your daily commute speeds. (If not, adjust up or down).
Limit the usual DOD at EOL to 80% (this also gives some margin for the unexpected)
Climate control budget 10% (low for some, high for others)
Low temperature battery assume 90% (again, low for some, high for others)
New range * DOD * EOL * CCB * LTB = realistic range over life of car
So 73 miles * 80% * 70% * 90% * 90% is 33 miles.

The above calculation is somewhat pessimistic, but someone in a place with cold winters and hot summers and high speed commutes might need to be even more pessimistic. In a place with mild year round temperatures and lower speeds, something like this might be realistic;

100 miles * 80% * 70% * 95% * 95% is 51 miles.

So a 50 mile commute in the Northwest coastal area, maybe.

 

[RWatkins]

If any of you know of a way to extend the range (with physical battery expansion or third party replacement) I'd be interested. I don't want to be flamed with all the ways to extend my range by changing my driving route, style or speed.

Enginer is supposed to be offering an extra battery to extend the range - not seen anyone buy one, though.

I believe they went out of business recently. I wouldn't know of anyone offering a range-extending solution right now, aside from Phil's Capstone trailer.

Pluginconversions will probably make you one.

This is best info I found about Enginer status and the range extender/PHEV kit.

Enginer do not hold any patents on the PHEV kit developed by SFE. MD-Tech have always had the kit on sale with a one year non-compete agreement for the US. This period is now over as Enginer have not bought kits from SFE for over a year. SFE lost their PHEV designer to Enginer but now that Enginer has gone out of business the PHEV designer is back at SFE.

Read more at http://priuschat.com/threads/md-tech-phev-conversion-kit.119469/#ixzz2GmjBDGJr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apparently SFE took over the Enginer.us URL.

About Enginer

Enginer is a private business operating in Shanghai. With the mission of promoting affordable automobile technologies that achieve > 100 MPG, has been active in product design, development for over 20 years. It has in the recent years been concentrating on EV / Hybrid technologies.

http://www.enginer.us/about/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

That assumes a competent and involved dealership... I'm not holding my breath!

The dealership will also be able to lobby HQ on gray-area-situations.