Please complain to Nissan to fix the climate control

[cwerdna]

I was looking forward to a car that had an HVAC that was better than any gas car, precisely because it was an electric car. My 72 cadillac performed better, and not because it had a huge ICE to generate heat. The Leaf produces plenty of heat too.

Actually, yes it was exactly because the heat was free. The LEAF can't afford to waste juice producing "plenty of heat".

Yep, the ICE on the Cadillac wastes at least 60% of its energy input as waste heat (http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_tips/vehicle_energy_losses.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for example references).

 

[johntaves]

... An automatic system, when in auto mode, should assume we want the temperature to get to the target as fast as it can. It should not assume we are on the very rare trip where we need to scratch out the best range. My tool should not assume I was joking when I set the temperature to 72. It should not assume I want to get to that temperature slowly.

Your opinion, which I doubt many people here would agree with. I want the automatic system to work with the rest of the car to maximize comfort AND range.

There is no way for the car to maximize comfort and range. You tell the car what "comfort" is when you set the target temperature. The cost in energy to get the interior temperature to the target temperature depends on a bunch of things that are out of our control, and the car can either spend the energy and get it there and keep it there, or not. Making the car delay getting it to the target temperature is not "maximing range" it is simply disobeying the driver's command.

 

[johntaves]

I was looking forward to a car that had an HVAC that was better than any gas car, precisely because it was an electric car. My 72 cadillac performed better, and not because it had a huge ICE to generate heat. The Leaf produces plenty of heat too.

Actually, yes it was exactly because the heat was free. The LEAF can't afford to waste juice producing "plenty of heat".

Yep, the ICE on the Cadillac wastes at least 60% of its energy input as waste heat (http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_tips/vehicle_energy_losses.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for example references).

This is entirely irrelevant to this thread. This thread is not discussing whether the Leaf could be more efficient, in terms of energy used, at heating or cooling the interior. I was not commenting about the Caddy's total heat output, or the fact that the heat would be there regardless of whether I wanted it in the interior. I was stating that the car designed more than 40 years ago, was better at controlling the fan to get the temperature to the target temperature than the Leaf.

This thread is about the system's willingness to do what the driver commanded it to do, given what was advertised it would do. When you set it to Auto, it does not get it to that temperature as quickly as it is capable of getting it there. I stated that both cars produce heat just fine. The Caddy does what it advertised. It gets it there as fast as it can, automatically when set to "auto". The Leaf, in Auto mode, does not get the interior temperature to the target temperature as fast as the Leaf can do it.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

It sounds like you are missing the "energy economy" screen option on the main dash that shows you actual MPkW, both linearly in real time and numerically in recent average, if that's doesn't fit your definition of efficiency, I'm not sure what will. In any case, let's see how you feel after some more miles on the car. If and when you actually need to use the gauges to track efficiency to maximize range I think you will see then how they work and how useful they are ... until then, happy sailing!

"this meter displays the actual traction motor power consumption and the regenerative brake power provided to the Li-ion battery."

Edited...

This means it is NOT an efficiency gauge. Efficiency is how much energy is used to go how far. The bubbles simply tell you how much energy is used/gained by the traction motor. It does not divide by the speed and it does not factor in the hills. For low speeds, before wind resistance takes over as a major source of drag, the bubbles will match the feeling in your butt and that does include up and down hills. When going up a hill, the car slows, but the acceleration feeling in your butt matches the bubbles because the power is either going to kinetic energy (more speed) or potential energy (up a hill), and both have the same acceleration feeling in your butt. At higher speeds, wind and rolling resistance take over as a major source of energy loss, and the bubbles to butt feeling ratio is shifted up the dial. This is high school physics.

This is something the Nissan engineers certainly knew. It is inexcusable that they gave us a gauge that has fooled you into thinking you are getting efficiency information. Nissan could easily have done the math using the computers that the car has, and given us a proper efficiency gauge. They would need to put an accelerometer into the car, because if you only use the acceleration you can determine from the speed of the car, you ignore the hills. You also need to know the mass. The calculation is to subtract the acceleration (the feeling in your butt) from the energy going in/out of the battery (or traction motor if you want to ignore other energy uses). This tells you the energy that can not be recovered. Divide the distance by this number and you have miles per joule, which is the efficiency number you want. (this is the general idea, not the exact formula)

An accelerometer is cheap, and the math is trivial. My guess is that how aggressively you accelerate is not very important for efficiency. If you accelerate like a snail, you will get worse range, but nobody will do this extreme because the honks would be annoying. Similarly if you accelerate hard, you will get worse range. I will bet there is a large range where it does not make any difference how hard/soft you accelerate. I will bet the biggest factor for range is how fast you travel. The optimum is 38 according to something I read somewhere. I will bet that there is a large range say plus or minus 10 miles per hour that all produce excellent efficiency. Above say 45 (my guess) the wind resistance starts rising non-linearly and therefore starts to really hammer your range.

Strictly speaking this efficiency information is not really necessary. The percent of trips where the car is taken to the extreme end of range, where the driver needs to drive efficiently, is certainly less than 1%. I have only heard the lady say I am low on energy 4 times in 4000 miles, and she said it within 4 miles of my home each time. I never had any need to conserve. It sounds like your trip to/from Shoreline to Olympia is extreme and you probably need to drive efficiently. However, I am certain those bubbles are a total distraction. If you are slowing on hills and speeding up on downhills to limit the bubbles, you are not only pissing off drivers behind you, you are worsening your range. The major factor by far, in that trip, is your speed. Set the cruise at some number that gets you there, and your efficiency is most likely maxed. The cruise will prevent the car from going above whatever speed you set, and the higher speeds are a certain waste of energy. The cruise will recover energy going down hill, whereas letting the speed rise will waste it. The gauge is useless, and probably has misled you.

A proper instantaneous efficiency gauge would be useful, but not terribly necessary. The bubbles are completely useless, and the Nissan engineers know this. They knew everything I said above when they designed the car, and it is inexcusable that they put that gauge in there. Not only is it a waste of money, it is clearly distracting some drivers.

We should not give them a pass on a pathetic HVAC system. They should fix it. One very important feature of an EV is instant on heat, and heat/cool without idling a gas engine. Any automatic climate control for an EV should be easier to design than one for an ICE. I expected it when I purchased the car. I was looking forward to a car that had an HVAC that was better than any gas car, precisely because it was an electric car. My 72 cadillac's auto system performed better than the Leaf, and not because it had a huge ICE to generate heat. The Leaf produces plenty of heat too.

 

[johntaves]

It sounds like you are missing the "energy economy" screen option on the main dash that shows you actual MPkW, both linearly in real time and numerically in recent average, if that's doesn't fit your definition of efficiency, I'm not sure what will. In any case, let's see how you feel after some more miles on the car. If and when you actually need to use the gauges to track efficiency to maximize range I think you will see then how they work and how useful they are ... until then, happy sailing!

That might be the gauge I am describing. I don't need it, and wasn't looking for it. I was saying that the bubbles are a waste of space and money and have duped some people into thinking it is something it is not. I was stating this only to show that Nissan blew money on pointless displays so we should not worry about Nissan's development costs. If they want to waste money on useless displays, I am certainly not going to give them some slack with respect to their failure to deliver an automatic climate control system.

 

[thankyouOB]

It sounds like you are missing the "energy economy" screen option on the main dash that shows you actual MPkW, both linearly in real time and numerically in recent average, if that's doesn't fit your definition of efficiency, I'm not sure what will. In any case, let's see how you feel after some more miles on the car. If and when you actually need to use the gauges to track efficiency to maximize range I think you will see then how they work and how useful they are ... until then, happy sailing!

That might be the gauge I am describing. I don't need it, and wasn't looking for it. I was saying that the bubbles are a waste of space and money and have duped some people into thinking it is something it is not. I was stating this only to show that Nissan blew money on pointless displays so we should not worry about Nissan's development costs. If they want to waste money on useless displays, I am certainly not going to give them some slack with respect to their failure to deliver an automatic climate control system.

we get how determined a consumer you are. do you have to tell us over and over?
Seriously, we are all here as a way to chat, share and help each other, and we welcome all input; and complaints are common.

that said, I have had the car for almost nine months and learned much here and from experience. allow me to share.
I am not duped by the bubbles. They and other tools and gauges have helped me to improve my range, efficiency and pleasure with the vehicle. I find the trees dumb, and I havent figured out the variables that control the circle that surrounds them. I think the explanations in the manual are inadequate about these items as is the heating section.

However, the heater works well, in my view.
It works on automatic automatically, and i am very happy with the efficiency and adequacy of the heating system after getting used to the fact that AC has to be left on, and that the car will warm to the temperature you want.
as someone else says, try it for awhile and earn some spurs. Happy motoring.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

with all due respect, next time, before trying to direct a feedback campaign to Nissan, please make more effort to determine if your priorities are more common ... IMHO, I think your focus reflects someone who is still in the break in phase of getting to know their vehicle, which I have no problem with until you start stating opinion as fact and telling the rest of us that we are crazy.

Kind Regards,
George

It sounds like you are missing the "energy economy" screen option on the main dash that shows you actual MPkW, both linearly in real time and numerically in recent average, if that's doesn't fit your definition of efficiency, I'm not sure what will. In any case, let's see how you feel after some more miles on the car. If and when you actually need to use the gauges to track efficiency to maximize range I think you will see then how they work and how useful they are ... until then, happy sailing!

That might be the gauge I am describing. I don't need it, and wasn't looking for it. I was saying that the bubbles are a waste of space and money and have duped some people into thinking it is something it is not. I was stating this only to show that Nissan blew money on pointless displays so we should not worry about Nissan's development costs. If they want to waste money on useless displays, I am certainly not going to give them some slack with respect to their failure to deliver an automatic climate control system.

 

[johntaves]

do you have to tell us over and over?
...It works on automatic automatically,

It seems like I do have to repeat things over and over. Have you ever seen the fan go above 4 of 7 bars in Auto mode? Is there any excuse for it being designed this way? Maybe, Auto was not really convinced I wanted to spend the energy necessary to get there. Maybe I am asking for a "No, I really do want to spend the energy to get the interior to the temp I set it to" button.

and i am very happy with the efficiency

Unless you have measured the heat wasted to the atmosphere and compared that to the amount of heat that got to the interior, you have no information regarding the efficiency of the HVAC system. I have not commented on that and it is irrelevant to this thread. Even if it was 100% efficient at turning battery juice into interior temperature, I would still be pissed off that the fan does not go to high speed when the target and current temperature are a long distance apart.

and that the car will warm to the temperature you want.

I'll repeat it again. It does not warm it as quickly as it is capable of warming it. I have to override Auto to get it to warm/cool as fast as it is capable. That is a totally bogus definition of "Auto".

 

[thankyouOB]

do you have to tell us over and over?
...It works on automatic automatically,

It seems like I do have to repeat things over and over. Have you ever seen the fan go above 4 of 7 bars in Auto mode? Is there any excuse for it being designed this way? Maybe, Auto was not really convinced I wanted to spend the energy necessary to get there. Maybe I am asking for a "No, I really do want to spend the energy to get the interior to the temp I set it to" button.

and i am very happy with the efficiency

Unless you have measured the heat wasted to the atmosphere and compared that to the amount of heat that got to the interior, you have no information regarding the efficiency of the HVAC system. I have not commented on that and it is irrelevant to this thread. Even if it was 100% efficient at turning battery juice into interior temperature, I would still be pissed off that the fan does not go to high speed when the target and current temperature are a long distance apart.

and that the car will warm to the temperature you want.

I'll repeat it again. It does not warm it as quickly as it is capable of warming it. I have to override Auto to get it to warm/cool as fast as it is capable. That is a totally bogus definition of "Auto".

moving you to the cant-see-'em list. no offense intended but I want to preserve my own sanity, as best I can.

 

[johntaves]

with all due respect, next time, before trying to direct a feedback campaign to Nissan, please make more effort to determine if your priorities are more common ... IMHO, I think your focus reflects someone who is still in the break in phase of getting to know their vehicle, which I have no problem with until you start stating opinion as fact and telling the rest of us that we are crazy.

Why does it matter whether many already have spotted the fact that the AC system does not run up the fan when it should, before I create a thread? How would I determine how common this "priority" is?

Have I failed to determine that in Auto mode the fan will not go above 4/7 even if the two temps are different? Do I need more break in phase to get to know if this is true?

Could you please be specific and tell me where I have stated something incorrectly?

 

[Herm]

do we have an ignore user feature in this forum?.. how do we access it?

 

[EVDRIVER]

do you have to tell us over and over?
...It works on automatic automatically,

It seems like I do have to repeat things over and over. Have you ever seen the fan go above 4 of 7 bars in Auto mode? Is there any excuse for it being designed this way? Maybe, Auto was not really convinced I wanted to spend the energy necessary to get there. Maybe I am asking for a "No, I really do want to spend the energy to get the interior to the temp I set it to" button.

and i am very happy with the efficiency

Unless you have measured the heat wasted to the atmosphere and compared that to the amount of heat that got to the interior, you have no information regarding the efficiency of the HVAC system. I have not commented on that and it is irrelevant to this thread. Even if it was 100% efficient at turning battery juice into interior temperature, I would still be pissed off that the fan does not go to high speed when the target and current temperature are a long distance apart.

and that the car will warm to the temperature you want.

I'll repeat it again. It does not warm it as quickly as it is capable of warming it. I have to override Auto to get it to warm/cool as fast as it is capable. That is a totally bogus definition of "Auto".

John. I get what you are saying. The heating system has many inadequacies. Some inherent to the lag of a "tank" heating system and others related to the very poor design of the software and system implementation. Those who have even owned the most primitive EVs in the past understand all the blaring flaws in the system. I find many of the LEAF system designs more than lacking but almost unbelievable. IMO, some people should be fired for the stupidity of some of the most fundamental EV leanings of the last ten years that were ignored in the LEAF. I know some people that are selling their LEAFs because of this frustration. Most people on this forum are not technical and the LEAF is their first EV. The bubbles are very valuable to these people and they have no idea what I am writing about nor do they care, other folks know exactly what I mean. Those of us that have more experience or understand what is going on in the background find it a bit "Fisher Price". I have to keep explaining the features to other EV owners and they simply can't understand or accept some of the backward design, they keep asking "why"? The LEAF is a VERY dumbed down EV for the masses, Nissan admits this and they went too far IMO. Of course this is relative and as a first EV it does not even apply to most. They got the headlights right :lol: Perhaps next time Nissan will listen closer. I do know some folks at Nissan wish the climate climate control was fixed and I bet it will be in time. Until then I think your concerns may be falling on deaf ears and also some that don't wan't to hear it even if it is true. A first EV is exciting even if ice comes out of the vents 24/7. Let's just hope that Nissan got the pack right at the expense of the user experience.

In the meantime there is a TSA from Nissan to fix the heat issue. Here it is:

http://www.thermacare.com/product/back-hip.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

However, Nissan should be informed that putting water into the system and ruining the fact that electric cars can produce heat quickly is not something consumers expect, and we should not forgive them for this.

Ofcourse, you shouldn't forgive them. Afterall, what have they done ? It's not like there isn't any another car manufacturer offering an affordable EV. :lol:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

hey feedback is great, but we also have to be careful in what we claim. as for the heat?? sure it sucks and there are a laundry list of things that i would do differently. but is that bad?? no, of course not.

there are millions of people with billions of needs and thousands of opinions. that pretty much eliminates the odds of getting a "perfect" car. i could direct you to the "what do you HATE about your Gen 3 Prius?" and its 300 posts about the most successful hybrid on the planet.

but again, feedback is ok. now would i trade my Leaf for another car?? sure i might...the only problem i have with that is what EV Now alluded to... trade to what??

ya, my car is not perfect but come try to take it or buy it be prepared! you will have a fight on your hands!

 

[EVDRIVER]

hey feedback is great, but we also have to be careful in what we claim. as for the heat?? sure it sucks and there are a laundry list of things that i would do differently. but is that bad?? no, of course not.

there are millions of people with billions of needs and thousands of opinions. that pretty much eliminates the odds of getting a "perfect" car. i could direct you to the "what do you HATE about your Gen 3 Prius?" and its 300 posts about the most successful hybrid on the planet.

but again, feedback is ok. now would i trade my Leaf for another car?? sure i might...the only problem i have with that is what EV Now alluded to... trade to what??

ya, my car is not perfect but come try to take it or buy it be prepared! you will have a fight on your hands!

One can find a million things wrong with any car but there are some key things in an EV you want to put on the top ten list when building one. Having a heating system that comes on in the background when you don't want or know about it not a small oversight. This would be less of a big deal in an ICE car but this is in an EV and the heater is a huge drain on the car. That's one aspect but they also could have used a design that would provide heat in less than 5 seconds. If one chooses and inefficient design and least insure it stays off when you want it off. I'm going to bet that at least 50% of LEAF drivers are loosing range because of this. This is one of the dumbest design flaws in the car, it is not a nit picking item it is a major flaw.

I once sat at a table with board members and design consultants of one of the largest German premium auto makers as we discussed what is important in an EV. They already had a 100+ mile EV (well known) built years before anyone even heard of a LEAF concept. They seemed very lost about what to do and when asked how often they drove an EV not one of them had ever even been in an EV! This says it all. If some people making these decisions drove an EV for any time the LEAF would be a different EV. Needed less to say they'll rode in one shortly after and it was quite a moment. I wonder if the woman that was in charge of the NAV system ever used her product.

 

[thankyouOB]

do we have an ignore user feature in this forum?.. how do we access it?

go to user control panel and look around for friends and foes.
it is badly named. foes should = ignore.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

One can find a million things wrong with any car but there are some key things in an EV you want to put on the top ten list when building one. Having a heating system that comes on in the background when you don't want or know about it not a small oversight. This would be less of a big deal in an ICE car but this is in an EV and the heater is a huge drain on the car. That's one aspect but they also could have used a design that would provide heat in less than 5 seconds. If one chooses and inefficient design and least insure it stays off when you want it off. I'm going to bet that at least 50% of LEAF drivers are loosing range because of this. This is one of the dumbest design flaws in the car, it is not a nit picking item it is a major flaw.

ok, so having heat in 5 seconds is desirable (even in a gas car!) and it can be done. it took about 30 seconds to get heat out of my Zenn. but then that is a result of set power being applied to warm cold air and i am guessing that power level is pretty high.

i think what we need is a power analysis of what is happening 10 minutes down the road in both scenarios. we see the Leaf can run at around 2 kw and provide the warmth we need (eventually) so the heater can and does work as is. but the real problem we have is unlike regular cars that constantly waste power whether the heat is running or not, in the Leaf, if we turn off the power to the heat for more than say 5 minutes, we practically have to start over.

i think what we have is an engineers decision to balance performance with cost. now, we have already heard that volume production of batteries will lower the cost of the vehicle starting in 2013 or 2014. what i am guessing is a better (and more costly) implementation of the climate controls.

now if we examine the tier 1 area, i think its pretty obvious that Nissan already knew about the drawbacks on the heater.

** i have never had the heat come on unless i commanded it to. there is an off button** now a fan option would be nice and i have one. cost my $14.99 plus tax and is waaay more fan than i need, but it does work relatively well as a compliment to the defrost**

 

[johntaves]

I once sat at a table with board members and design consultants of one of the largest German premium auto makers as we discussed what is important in an EV. They already had a 100+ mile EV (well known) built years before anyone even heard of a LEAF concept. They seemed very lost about what to do and when asked how often they drove an EV not one of them had ever even been in an EV! This says it all. If some people making these decisions drove an EV for any time the LEAF would be a different EV. Needed less to say they'll rode in one shortly after and it was quite a moment. I wonder if the woman that was in charge of the NAV system ever used her product.

I agree. It took me about two days of driving my brother's Ford Ranger EV to realize the difference. On my first few trips with the EV I was careful not to use the heat or anything else that might use electricity because my instinct was to preserve the juice to extend the range. After a few trips, I dope slapped myself. There's no point in conserving electricity. The odds that you are taking a trip that requires you to not use the heater or A/C are almost nil. You generally always return to your charger with plenty of juice to spare. I took my boy to some event where I had the option to return home and come back later, or wait in the parking lot. It was cold outside, but I sat in the truck at night with plenty of reading light and silent heat. I suspect that same epiphany completely escaped the Nissan engineers and the design consultants you encountered.

The designers certainly should maximize range, minimize cost, and maximize efficiency when they design the car. However, they should also recognize the bounds. For example, the engineers should mentally separate the drive from the HVAC. These are two entirely different uses of the electricity and only the driver can make the judgement call regarding whether a trade off is necessary. The engineers need to comprehend that the odds that the driver is on a trip where head/cool needs to be sacrificed to complete, is very low. This means that the default behavior of the HVAC system should be to get the interior temperature to the target as fast as possible, and that mode is certainly called "Auto". There are many drivers that would like to conserve their juice even though they are not going to need all the juice to complete their trip, because they simply prefer to put on more clothing layers (or take them off) than spend electricity on the heat/cool. Those drivers have a mode, and it is correctly labeled as "Off".

 

[zarwin]

Maybe this has been mentioned before, but when pre-heating, could there actually be an energy advantage to the way the heat works? If the car has to heat fluid, and this process takes some time, then energy is being stored in the fluid itself. The car is left with a pre-heated interior and some amount of pre-heated fluid in the heating system. Probably insignificant ...

 

[FairwoodRed]

In the meantime there is a TSA from Nissan to fix the heat issue. Here it is:

http://www.thermacare.com/product/back-hip.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You got me with this one... :lol: :lol: