Phoenix Range Test Sept 15, 2012 planning!

[cwerdna]

Might also be poor form for 10 LEAF's taking up space at a Toyota dealer on a busy Sat.

Maybe I have a poor memory, but remind me which Toyota can accept a Blink DC QC?

None that I know of, but oddly in Phoenix, two QC's are at Toyota dealerships, one QC is at a Ford dealership, and the other QC is at Ecotality.

That is really odd given that no Toyotas (not even the upcoming Rav4 EV) and no Fords have CHAdeMO ports. Any idea why they have them? Are they trying to draw i-Miev and Leaf buyers over to look at Toyotas/Fords?

 

[ALLWATZ]

Good luck Tony and can't wait to see the results. Hope you don't run into any haboobs, http://www.azfamily.com/news/Thursday-forecast-Royal-168827706.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, as the season still has 3 more weeks to go.

 

[TonyWilliams]

1. We don't need QC overnight; we need it in the morning, after the test. Every car will get towed back to a charger, so as long as a QC is nearby (2 of them within 5 miles), that will work way better than one.

This was all assuming that the Ecotality site is available on Saturday and is not locked up.

We actually already have a somewhat firm commitment AND INVOLVEMENT from ECTY. If that were not the case, I would agree. Should it not transpire to be the case, then there should be a plan B.

2. Isn't this site central to PHX? I know Scott is coming from the west, TickTock from the east. Isn't the other proposed site well east?

The PADT site is not well east like you think. It's in Tempe which is just east of Phoenix, bordering Phoenix.

Obviously, I'm not the guy to determine this. Let's call this one a toss up for now?

3. This site has two loops. That may be needed to split the difference on calculating ending points. For instance, perhaps one car can do three 20.9 mile loops and one 12.7.

Loops can be easily designated. I'm not sure what the big deal is.

It's not a big deal. What is the loop you propose?

4. The launch point has 6 L2's, and there are tons more nearby.

The PADT site also has 2 L2 there, and the antique mall about 3 miles away has 6 L2's. Regardless, 6 L2s at Ecotality is no good anyway if they're locked out on Friday and Saturday.

Refer to issue one.

5. The launch point is 0.7 miles from the freeway.

The PADT launch point is RIGHT NEXT to the freeway (maybe 0.1 mile).

Ok, it's certainly sounds doable. I did not try to determine a loop, but I will. At worst, this is our backup location.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

Great idea, Tony! Thanks for taking a leadership role on this!

I'm sure you have considered this, but please be sure to have a low-mileage LEAF from a dealer as well as other fairly new LEAFs such as shrink's included as controls.

This!

Looking forward to results.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Great idea, Tony! Thanks for taking a leadership role on this!

I'm sure you have considered this, but please be sure to have a low-mileage LEAF from a dealer as well as other fairly new LEAFs such as shrink's included as controls.

This!

Looking forward to results.

Low mileage LEAFs are lining up. We need some confirmation from multi-bar losers that they will participate. Yes, it might take some effort, and you might have to wake up early on Saturday.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

Great idea, Tony! Thanks for taking a leadership role on this!

I'm sure you have considered this, but please be sure to have a low-mileage LEAF from a dealer as well as other fairly new LEAFs such as shrink's included as controls.

This!

Looking forward to results.

Low mileage LEAFs are lining up. We need some confirmation from multi-bar losers that they will participate. Yes, it might take some effort, and you might have to wake up early on Saturday.

Personally, it would take me weeks to do the road-trip

I really hope you can get some more bar-losers here.

I believe this test is going to be extremely interesting. I read some of the criticisms above about how it could be better. They are fair--but all experiments in the world could be better. You don't need better, though; you need good enough. I think at the absolute least you are controlling for enough variables here that to a critical individual the final results will be quite compelling. There isn't an experiment in the world that couldn't have been better, but you're obviously diligent as heck and this should go well.

What I liked most about the ideas to make this better were the predisposed notions/bias of owners. Here is how I'd solve that:

1) tape a black piece of paper over every single fuel gauge
2) Randomly assign people to different cars

I realize some people may know by plate, or by stickers on a car they've seen pics of or whatever, but ultimately this way with all cars driving at the same time on a convoy spaced well enough apart that there is no wind blocking by front vehicles you can end up with some really useful numbers here. Best of luck! Your control methodology here is going to really lend tons of credence to this test.

Two probable results:
1) Nissan is right; Scott's car and others are pretty close within range. This will be excellent news for everybody.
2) Nissan id wrong; Scott's car and others are suffering range substantially. Nissan will have quite a difficult time ignoring this. The more cars involved the better the experiment, and you'll be picked up on sites like jalopnik--it will get back to Nissan. Then the ball is in their court.

 

[TonyWilliams]

but you're obviously diligent as heck and this should go well.

Many things can go wrong. Any car that can't maintain 62mph will have all the results thrown out. A wind storm or rain will stop things. We wont get to retest cars if the ambient temperautre changes.

I'm also starting a non-profit, which is difficult, and a DC charger business, which is equally difficult. I have a few LEAF projects, house projects, etc. It's getting to be a full time job :shock:

I guarantee every dealer in PHX, and Nissan, will be notified of our results. I have no problem with them leasing it for 24 months with a clear disclaimer of how bad the range could get in hot Phoenix AND a return policy should the range deplete too much FOR THE LEASEE. Not weasel words (never happen). I wouldn't trust these clowns with ANY capacity warranty. The instruments would always be bad.

1) tape a black piece of paper over every single fuel gauge
2) Randomly assign people to different cars

Yes, I intend to cover all instruments. Since one is bad, according it Nissan, they might all be bad. Yes, we hopefully will have different drivers in different cars; ideally guys who don't drive a LEAF.

I realize some people may know by plate, or by stickers on a car they've seen pics of or whatever, but ultimately this way with all cars driving at the same time on a convoy spaced well enough apart that there is no wind blocking by front vehicles you can end up with some really useful numbers here. Best of luck! Your control methodology here is going to really lend tons of credence to this test.

We have to recover the cars, so the cars will be launched in a grid so that we calculate one hitting turtle every 10-15 minutes per available recover truck. No convoys.

2) Nissan is wrong; Scott's car and others are suffering range substantially. Nissan will have quite a difficult time ignoring this. The more cars involved the better the experiment, and you'll be picked up on sites like jalopnik--it will get back to Nissan. Then the ball is in their court.

They aren't going to do a darn thing because of this. It won't even be a hiccup in their campaign. What will impact Nissan is when PHX area folks stop buying the car, and the Industry press runs with stories. I expect a full slander on me from both Nissan, and Nissan's stooges in our ranks. That's when you know you're right :ugeek:

 

[shrink]

So who do have participating in this?

Scott's 4 lost bars car and my 2500 mile, 2-1/2 month old 2012? Anyone else? I hope we have a high turn out. Tony is taking the time to do this and the results will be very interesting.

Tony, assuming Ecotality is good to go, is the plan for people to park at Ecotality overnight to charge at their L2's? if so, I hope spouses or friends can help with transport.

If you guys can also get cars on trailers for transport to the starting point, I live 4-1/2 miles almost due north of Ecotality and have two Blink EVSE's in my garage. If we have a lot of cars, two people can use my two Blinks to charge overnight, as long as someone doesn't mind picking up and transporting them to the starting point in the AM. My Blinks are solar-powered and free

 

[leafkabob]

So who do have participating in this?

Scott's 4 lost bars car and my 2500 mile, 2-1/2 month old 2012? Anyone else? I hope we have a high turn out. Tony is taking the time to do this and the results will be very interesting.

Tony, assuming Ecotality is good to go, is the plan for people to park at Ecotality overnight to charge at their L2's? if so, I hope spouses or friends can help with transport.

If you guys can also get cars on trailers for transport to the starting point, I live 4-1/2 miles almost due north of Ecotality and have two Blink EVSE's in my garage. If we have a lot of cars, two people can use my two Blinks to charge overnight, as long as someone doesn't mind picking up and transporting them to the starting point in the AM. My Blinks are solar-powered and free

I just sent Tony an e-mail saying I want to participate with my 2-bar-loss car. I live close to Shrink and if we use the Ecotality location my car would be ready to go Saturday morning and would just need a tow to the starting point.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Scott's 4 lost bars car and my 2500 mile, 2-1/2 month old 2012? If you guys can also get cars on trailers for transport to the starting point, I live 4-1/2 miles almost due north of Ecotality and have two Blink EVSE's in my garage.

Yes, we can use your car. Email your phone #, and address to the charging stations... TonyWilliams -at- LoveMyLEAF -dot- com

Also, I know some of you are thrifty to an extreme that I would never be able to comprehend :mrgreen: If that's you, and you don't want to pay a few bucks to charge your car, I WILL PAY FOR YOUR CHARGE. I would hate to miss a critical opportunity over a few bucks of electricity. This offer is for two, three or four bar losers LEAFs only.

For others, just be clear, I can't do this as a drop in. So, step up if you want to be on the test. IF YOU HAVE A TWO OR THREE OR FOUR BAR LOSER LEAF, SOMEBODY WILL PICK UP YOUR CAR FRIDAY NIGHT IF YOU CAN'T GET IT AT 805 N. 2nd St, PHOENIX. I will already be doing this for at least one car.

Tony, assuming Ecotality is good to go, is the plan for people to park at Ecotality overnight to charge at their L2's? if so, I hope spouses or friends can help with transport.

Yes. I hope they help , too, but again if you can't get your two, three or four bar loser there, we will find a way to do that.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I just sent Tony an e-mail saying I want to participate with my 2-bar-loss car. I live close to Shrink and if we use the Ecotality location my car would be ready to go Saturday morning and would just need a tow to the starting point.

If the car is at your house, or any location other than 805 N. 2nd St, Phoenix on Friday night, the car needs to be OUTSIDE during it's charge to match the temps of cars charged at the staging point. The charge should be complete by 2am, so that at least 4 hours are available to balance the cells and cool the pack to ambient temperature.

Hopefully, it obvious that any car not at the prestige area will need to be towed there. You can't charge at home, and then drive to the staging area.

 

[leafkabob]

I just sent Tony an e-mail saying I want to participate with my 2-bar-loss car. I live close to Shrink and if we use the Ecotality location my car would be ready to go Saturday morning and would just need a tow to the starting point.

If the car is at your house, or any location other than 805 N. 2nd St, Phoenix on Friday night, the car needs to be OUTSIDE during it's charge to match the temps of cars charged at the staging point. The charge should be complete by 2am, so that at least 4 hours are available to balance the cells and cool the pack to ambient temperature.

I can easily get it to 805 on Friday night. I was just thinking that if Blink space was short because of the number of participants, I could leave it at home and get it there Saturday morning (with some help).

 

[azdre]

Low mileage LEAFs are lining up. We need some confirmation from multi-bar losers that they will participate. Yes, it might take some effort, and you might have to wake up early on Saturday.

We're discussing. I have turtle-fear.

What might tip the scales is where is breakfast to be served afterwards?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Low mileage LEAFs are lining up. We need some confirmation from multi-bar losers that they will participate. Yes, it might take some effort, and you might have to wake up early on Saturday.

We're discussing. I have turtle-fear.

What might tip the scales is where is breakfast to be served afterwards?

This is nearby, but small and crowded: http://www.mattsbigbreakfast.com/menu.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about if we set up tables, chairs, and tent, and have a gourmet roach coach come by ?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I need your car's last 5 digits of the serial number, manufacturer date (from door post), your car's color, approximate miles at time of test Saturday, and your cell phone number. Please email to me so that I have your email also.

TonyWilliams -at- LoveMyLEAF -dot- com

Each car will be identified as "Black123" or "Blue789", identifying the color of the car and the last three numbers of the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN). We will place those three digits on the front and rear windows of each car.



The LEAF's:

..Departure....Turtle ..Color/VIN...Driver...........phone#.........Bars/%.....Gid%...Range/Gid Range

1. 6:00am.....6:57am....xxx....ScottY's wife...602-xxx-xxxx....8/67%.....xx%.......56 / xx miles

2. 6:02am.....7:26am....xxx.......shrink.........602-xxx-xxxx...12/100%...xx%.......84 / xx miles

3. 6:04am......7:10am...xxx......leafkabob......602-xxx-xxxx...10/79%....xx%.......66 / xx miles

4. 6:19am......7:25am...xxx.......TickTock.......602-xxx-xxxx...10/79%....xx%......66 / xx miles

5. 6:34am......7:40am...xxx.....JN-no driver....602-xxx-xxxx....9/79%....xx%......61 / xx miles

6. 6:24am......7:40am...xxx........spooka........602-xxx-xxxx...10/79%....xx%......66 / xx miles

7. 6:24am......7:40am...xxx...azdre/opossum..602-xxx-xxxx...10/79%....xx%......66 / xx miles

8. 6:24am......7:40am...xxx............BT...........602-xxx-xxxx...10/79%....xx%......66 / xx miles

 

[Herm]

This is nearby, but small and crowded

for the "I could have driven a Prius™" crowd, you just bring a breakfast sandwich from home

 

[shrink]

Low mileage LEAFs are lining up. We need some confirmation from multi-bar losers that they will participate. Yes, it might take some effort, and you might have to wake up early on Saturday.

We're discussing. I have turtle-fear.

What might tip the scales is where is breakfast to be served afterwards?

This is nearby, but small and crowded: http://www.mattsbigbreakfast.com/menu.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How about if we set up tables, chairs, and tent, and have a gourmet roach coach come by ?

We'll never get in to that place. Even with the bigger new location, lines are always out the door. However, Bliss/Rebar is a good option. I don't know if the Arrogant Butcher serves breakfast, but they are excellent, too. I can research something. I don't think food trucks are around on Saturdays. Fridays are big for food trucks in downtown Phoenix.

 

[shrink]

I need your car's last 5 digits of the serial number, manufacturer date (from door post), your car's color, approximate miles at time of test Saturday, and your cell phone number. Please email to me so that I have your email also.

Information sent via PM

 

[shrink]

If the car is at your house, or any location other than 805 N. 2nd St, Phoenix on Friday night, the car needs to be OUTSIDE during it's charge to match the temps of cars charged at the staging point. The charge should be complete by 2am, so that at least 4 hours are available to balance the cells and cool the pack to ambient temperature.

Hopefully, it obvious that any car not at the prestige area will need to be towed there. You can't charge at home, and then drive to the staging area.

Hmm...I could easily get to Ecotality Friday night, but my home Blinks are garaged and the cables are not long enough to get outside. I don't mind parking it at a nearby outdoor public L2 overnight if we need the space at Ecotality. Just keep me posted on what to do.

Where's jspearman? If you're reading this, I hope you can join the party!

 

[jspearman]

If the car is at your house, or any location other than 805 N. 2nd St, Phoenix on Friday night, the car needs to be OUTSIDE during it's charge to match the temps of cars charged at the staging point. The charge should be complete by 2am, so that at least 4 hours are available to balance the cells and cool the pack to ambient temperature.

Hopefully, it obvious that any car not at the prestige area will need to be towed there. You can't charge at home, and then drive to the staging area.

Hmm...I could easily get to Ecotality Friday night, but my home Blinks are garaged and the cables are not long enough to get outside. I don't mind parking it at a nearby outdoor public L2 overnight if we need the space at Ecotality. Just keep me posted on what to do.

Where's jspearman? If you're reading this, I hope you can join the party!

Even though I'm the one who came up with the idea of the Leaf and the solar panels for our household, this is still my wife's car and she's become fiercely protective of it. She's not too keen on my running the battery to zero and having it towed. So, I may come for moral support and bring the car for solidarity, I probably won't be driving it in the test.