Opinions: Leasing Batteries

[dgpcolorado]

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/MAGAZINE/ev_battery.html

Interesting, that article explains a lot about the thinking that went into the LEAF battery. And what went wrong: reducing the internal heating of the battery isn't enough to protect it in high ambient temperature conditions. I remain puzzled why they didn't find this out with the Arizona testing before the LEAF was released.

 

[davewill]

... I remain puzzled why they didn't find this out with the Arizona testing before the LEAF was released.

Maybe because it was accelerated testing? The cars didn't spend lots of time just sitting in the heat?

 

[dgpcolorado]

... I remain puzzled why they didn't find this out with the Arizona testing before the LEAF was released.

Maybe because it was accelerated testing? The cars didn't spend lots of time just sitting in the heat?

That seems to be the only thing that makes sense, but wouldn't they at least leave them in the heat for a summer season?

 

[SteveInSeattle]

The main anxiety people have about the Leaf is battery life. I would have been interested in buying the Leaf for $18,000 and then leasing batteries. However, according to my calculations, the monthly cost would be too high and would turn most customers off. All a lease is, really, is a pre-negotiated purchase with the trade-in value already established upfront in the contract.

 

[davewill]

... However, according to my calculations, the monthly cost would be too high and would turn most customers off. ...

Why would the monthly cost be any higher than leasing the whole car? The only difference would be the ability to purchase the car without having to own a degraded battery.

 

[edatoakrun]

... However, according to my calculations, the monthly cost would be too high and would turn most customers off. ...

Why would the monthly cost be any higher than leasing the whole car? The only difference would be the ability to purchase the car without having to own a degraded battery.

A separate battery lease would result in a net transfer of battery costs from those whose batteries did not last as long, to LEAF drivers who's batteries did last longer.

Not quite sure the full implications of such a policy have sunk in to many Posting here.

I would be a great deal if you live in Phoenix, like to charge to 100% during Summer afternoons, and then drive hundreds of miles using multiple QCs.

Not so great a deal, for a Pacific Northwest driver, who just want to use their LEAF for a 50 mile commute, and is completely satisfied with 80% overnight charging, on most days.

The net result, would be to encourage LEAF uses, through subsidies, for the very purposes that they are least capable of.

And by doing so, it would surely raise the total battery costs, for the entire group of LEAF drivers, overall.

 

[GRA]

... However, according to my calculations, the monthly cost would be too high and would turn most customers off. ...

Why would the monthly cost be any higher than leasing the whole car? The only difference would be the ability to purchase the car without having to own a degraded battery.

A separate battery lease would result in a net transfer of battery costs from those whose batteries did not last as long, to LEAF drivers who's batteries did last longer.

Not quite sure the full implications of such a policy have sunk in to many Posting here.

I would be a great deal if you live in Phoenix, like to charge to 100% during Summer afternoons, and then drive hundreds of miles using multiple QCs.

Not so great a deal, for a Pacific Northwest driver, who just want to use their LEAF for a 50 mile commute, and is completely satisfied with 80% overnight charging, on most days.

The net result, would be to encourage LEAF uses, through subsidies, for the very purposes that they are least capable of.

And by doing so, it would surely raise the total battery costs, for the entire group of LEAF drivers, overall.

I'd expect the battery lease price would vary depending on the climate zone in which the lessee lives. So those who live around Puget Sound will pay far less per month than those who live in Phoenix. Why on earth would anyone expect the lease price to be the same regardless of usage conditions? They vary due to annual mileage, and should vary due to climate when that is obviously a major factor in longevity and capacity.

Alternatively, it would encourage car companies to design battery packs capable of lasting out the lease period regardless of the climate in which they were used. Since this would allow them to charge less in high degradation areas than companies who don't have such capabilities, sales would obviously migrate to the former companies.

 

[davewill]

... However, according to my calculations, the monthly cost would be too high and would turn most customers off. ...

Why would the monthly cost be any higher than leasing the whole car? The only difference would be the ability to purchase the car without having to own a degraded battery.

A separate battery lease would result in a net transfer of battery costs from those whose batteries did not last as long, to LEAF drivers who's batteries did last longer. ...

I don't see it as any different than hot weather cars lowering used LEAF values. If Nissan starts taking a bath on lease returns in AZ, you can bet the lease terms will change. Leasing the battery will simply limit the problem to the battery lease instead of affecting the whole car.

 

[Herm]

I'd expect the battery lease price would vary depending on the climate zone in which the lessee lives. So those who live around Puget Sound will pay far less per month than those who live in Phoenix. Why on earth would anyone expect the lease price to be the same regardless of usage conditions? They vary due to annual mileage, and should vary due to climate when that is obviously a major factor in longevity and capacity.

I had an idea how Nissan could fix this Phoenix problem if the rumors of a 25% boost in capacity are true. Nissan could use that extra capacity to reduce the high state of charge in Phoenix.. so even is you requested a full charge all you would really get is about 70% or 73 miles in the summertime, but people in Seattle would be able to access the whole new amount.. the car would know by using GPS or just the ambient temperature. Limiting the state of charge at these high temperatures should increase battery life as some of the studies posted here show. Hopefully they need to stop the foolishness with the GOM and fix it so people will trust it since your range will vary with the weather.

I can just hear the "unfair!" howls from Phoenix Leafers.

 

[davewill]

... I can just hear the "unfair!" howls from Phoenix Leafers.

Only if Nissan didn't disclose the limitation before purchase.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I had an idea how Nissan could fix this Phoenix problem if the rumors of a 25% boost in capacity are true. Nissan could use that extra capacity to reduce the high state of charge in Phoenix.. so even is you requested a full charge all you would really get is about 70% or 73 miles in the summertime, but people in Seattle would be able to access the whole new amount.. the car would know by using GPS or just the ambient temperature. Limiting the state of charge at these high temperatures should increase battery life as some of the studies posted here show. Hopefully they need to stop the foolishness with the GOM and fix it so people will trust it since your range will vary with the weather.

I can just hear the "unfair!" howls from Phoenix Leafers.

This assumes that the battery problems in very hot climates is related to high SOC. My impression from the data thus far is that the heat will damage the batteries regardless of whether or not high SOC is used.

As others have stated, what is needed is a battery chemistry that is substantially less sensitive to high heat or a TMS that will keep the battery at a lower temperature in high ambient temperatures. Otherwise we are back to batteries that have rapid capacity loss in very hot climates, however one chooses to pay for them.

Perhaps it is time to bring back NiMH batteries for hot climates, despite their other disadvantages over Li-ion in charge density, weight, and loss of charge while unplugged.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I had an idea how Nissan could fix this Phoenix problem if the rumors of a 25% boost in capacity are true. Nissan could use that extra capacity to reduce the high state of charge in Phoenix.. so even is you requested a full charge all you would really get is about 70% or 73 miles in the summertime, but people in Seattle would be able to access the whole new amount.. the car would know by using GPS or just the ambient temperature. Limiting the state of charge at these high temperatures should increase battery life as some of the studies posted here show. Hopefully they need to stop the foolishness with the GOM and fix it so people will trust it since your range will vary with the weather.

I can just hear the "unfair!" howls from Phoenix Leafers.

This assumes that the battery problems in very hot climates is related to high SOC. My impression from the data thus far is that the heat will damage the batteries regardless of whether or not high SOC is used.

As others have stated, what is needed is a battery chemistry that is substantially less sensitive to high heat or a TMS that will keep the battery at a lower temperature in high ambient temperatures. Otherwise we are back to batteries that have rapid capacity loss in very hot climates, however one chooses to pay for them.

Perhaps it is time to bring back NiMH batteries for hot climates, despite their other disadvantages over Li-ion in charge density, weight, and loss of charge while unplugged.

it has been brought up in other threads but in a car that relies 100% on the electricity stored in the battery, you must realized that mileage is only a small part of the story. the A/C when it is running is using power which means its using cycles which means its putting hidden miles on the car which really brings us back to the point that the age of the car is just as important as heat, mileage, charging habits, etc.