Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
vrwl said:
Several people have proposed a guaranteed trade-in allowance from Nissan as part of the resolution for this issue. I think that should definitely be a component of any final proposal. There have been many other good ideas (like the free charging cards, etc), but reduced new battery costs will not override the stigma this car has received due to this mess and I don't want that to follow us down the road years from now, even if it is sporting a new battery inside. I want a guarantee that the value of this car will remain high (like a Prius) once it's time to get a new car.

You know that Renault (sister company to Nissan) offers a 75% capacity guarantee on their leased battery? Also, in June, Nissan started a $599 guaranteed buyback option on the LEAF in the Australian market.

There are lots that they can do, and do actually do in the rest of the world.
 
TonyWilliams said:
vrwl said:
Several people have proposed a guaranteed trade-in allowance from Nissan as part of the resolution for this issue. I think that should definitely be a component of any final proposal. There have been many other good ideas (like the free charging cards, etc), but reduced new battery costs will not override the stigma this car has received due to this mess and I don't want that to follow us down the road years from now, even if it is sporting a new battery inside. I want a guarantee that the value of this car will remain high (like a Prius) once it's time to get a new car.

You know that Renault (sister company to Nissan) offers a 75% capacity guarantee on their leased battery? Also, in June, Nissan started a $599 guaranteed buyback option on the LEAF in the Australian market.

There are lots that they can do, and do actually do in the rest of the world.

VERY interesting information! I blame our legal environment in this country for Nissan's behavior (as well as very poor business practices)
 
gaswalla said:
TonyWilliams said:
vrwl said:
Several people have proposed a guaranteed trade-in allowance from Nissan as part of the resolution for this issue. I think that should definitely be a component of any final proposal. There have been many other good ideas (like the free charging cards, etc), but reduced new battery costs will not override the stigma this car has received due to this mess and I don't want that to follow us down the road years from now, even if it is sporting a new battery inside. I want a guarantee that the value of this car will remain high (like a Prius) once it's time to get a new car.

You know that Renault (sister company to Nissan) offers a 75% capacity guarantee on their leased battery? Also, in June, Nissan started a $599 guaranteed buyback option on the LEAF in the Australian market.

There are lots that they can do, and do actually do in the rest of the world.

VERY interesting information! I blame our legal environment in this country for Nissan's behavior (as well as very poor business practices)

They are afraid of getting sued, so they pull sneaky stuff like the 7500 mile undisclosed metric that is guaranteed to get them sued.

It just seems so absolutely amateurish to me, and the more the disclose, the dumber it gets.

They are now making concrete steps to mitigate the current issues. I hope that they can move far enough, and fast enough, to head off the stream of lawsuits.

The regulatory end, now that needs serious attention. They don't put a crazy odometer or speedometer in a car, because regulations prevent it. The same should be true of 100 mile range advertisements (which I think they stopped, although they are telling the Japanese market that the car will go from 200km / 126 miles to 250km!!!... More BS).

THE EV COMMUNITY NEEDS REGULATIONS TO ADDRESS ADVERTISED RANGE EXPECTATIONS AND SPECIFIC GUIDANCE ON HOW LOCAL CLIMATE, TIME, AND HEATER / AIR CONDITIONER AFFECTS RANGE THROUGH 5 YEARS... ON THE CAR'S WINDOW LIKE THE MONRONEY STICKER.

Note, I never mentioned battery degradation above.
 
ttweed said:
I really love this idea, and it would indeed allay my growing fears about battery degradation as an owner, but looking at it from Nissan's viewpoint as well, I still don't see how "premature capacity loss" can be accurately defined to everyone's satisfaction. We all knew going in that the batteries would degrade and that it would be somewhat dependent on the conditions of usage. Nissan was very clear about that, but I think it is also clear to everyone that there is some kind of elevated rate of degradation that is taking place in hot climates beyond what was expected or could be considered acceptable. Where do you draw the line, though, between what is reasonable capacity loss and what is "premature?" Whose expectations regarding performance should prevail in making that decision? Is the customer always right? What objective standard is there that can be used to judge normal and acceptable capacity loss--their previous marketing claims regarding range? I think we are seeing that with careful "spinning" of the data, measurements and statistics, arguments can be made on both sides of the equation.
While this is true, I do think that there is a serious communication disconnect here. Most consumers are not familiar with the particulars of lithium ion chemistries, their lifecycle and aging characteristics. If the disclosure form says "expect 80% capacity remaining after 5 years of use" most people will take it as 4% or 5% degradation per year. We all know now that this is not the case.

I know from my own situation, and I have worked very hard to find and get data from comparable products, that I would have described 8-10% degradation in the first year as excessive. I discussed this with a friend of mine over the course of many months, and we both wondered if capacity loss would hit 5% in the first year, and then level off. As it turns out, about 8% is normal, and Nissan must have simulated this extensively. Although they likely knew upfront, this was not communicated properly.

Likewise with climatic influences. We are all educated consumers, some of us even highly so, and we mean well. How long did it take us to figure out that the battery might be degrading 50% faster in Phoenix than in the rest of the country (and about three times faster than in Seattle)? And we still don't have consensus on it. Had the consumers in Phoenix known that 12% degradation in the first year of ownership was expected, many of them would not have bought. While the sales impact would likely have been significant, the situation we are dealing with could have been averted.

What is the solution to all this? Honestly, I don't know. Apparently, the battery aging characteristic is not quite to the liking of some of the consumers that purchased the vehicle. Can't change that. While there might be many owners that don't need much range for everyday driving, this is not something that can be assumed of everyone.

So what to do? Should the consumers that will not be able to use the vehicle for their commutes be able to return it or get a new battery? How many refreshes would be reasonable in hotter climates? Would more frequent charging (and better infrastructure) be acceptable until better batteries and other Nissan EVs are available? It will be interesting to see what the eventual outcome will be.

As for the future. I don't think that it's appropriate to assume that most consumers will be OK with 10% range drop in the first year. Especially in a tightly range-constrained vehicle. This should be disclosed. Another way of dealing with it would be to include 5% extra battery capacity (2 modules) without advertising it. Assuming slightly understated nominal performance of a new vehicle, consumers would be pleased to have better range than advertised in the first year, and content to see that the degradation curve from nominal down to the projected end point was largely linear and more easily predictable.

Another possibility is to advertise vehicle range in a different way. If the Leaf was sold as a 65-mile car, it would not attract buyers with longer commutes, and owners would not have a reason to complain when the range drops 10% in the second year of ownership.
1
 
Folks, let's keep this topic to the Open Nissan Letter....All other conversation should be taken to other threads....

Thanks....
 
Transcript (with thanks to Felix Cramer of Cal-Cars) of Brendan Jones speaking at the SFO Plug-in Day event. Brendan is reportedly quoted as telling the audience: ""more of our sales come from you guys than come from our sales and marketing efforts"

"I started three years ago on the project. And I'm -- I don't know if you can tell by looking at me. I'm just a traditional car guy. I fell
in love with cars some time before I went into my undergrad program, fell in love with them through grad school, and I've stayed in the
business for over 25 years, 18 of the years with Nissan. I love cars.

But I will tell you after 25 years of experience in the business, I've never found this much energy, enthusiasm, entrepreneurial spirit
and emotion surrounding one vehicle as I have with the Nissan Leaf and all electric vehicles in general. There's more excitement and
passion about changing the way we move, about doing something for the environment, about getting the country off foreign oil, etc., than
there is around the EV movement. It's something different. And it's the first time people can own a car and actually feel good about what
they're doing with it, and that's outstanding.

And when you hear that enthusiasm coming from the public it can't help but rub off. And what I mean by that is more of our sales come
from you guys than come from our sales and marketing efforts. And for that again I have to thank you, because when you go into a parking
lot, or you drive through your neighborhood, and you talk about the vehicle with so much enthusiasm and passion, that just helps to sell
cars. It makes my job very very easy.

And also it makes my job very easy to listen to your stories with the passion. Even the constructive criticism, because I'll tell you, you
guys give the best constructive criticism of any group I've had to be associated with. And I can tell you, it's listened to at the highest
levels of the company. You guys are more important than me. And that's the way it should be."

You can see the video transcribed here on Felix's blog site, drivingelectric.org. Brendan's speech begins at 2:50 into the video:

http://drivingelectric.org/galleries/felixkramer/nissan-exec-confirms-pev-drivers-sell-cars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
surfingslovak said:
Another possibility is to advertise vehicle range in a different way. If the Leaf was sold as a 65-mile car, it would not attract buyers with longer commutes, and owners would not have a reason to complain when the range drops 10% in the second year of ownership.

65 miles is way too far for a daily range, unless you drive slow enough to get a 116 mile "full to turtle" range with a new Leaf. Not very many people do this once. Even fewer do it daily.

Why? EOL and DOD.

EOL is planning ahead until the end of life of the battery, defined as 70% of rated capacity. DOD is the depth of discharge, or the fraction of the capacity used. For good battery life, this should be less than 80%. If the "new Leaf range" is the EPA rated 72 miles, then the daily suggested range should be about 40 miles for 80% DOD, and 30 miles for 60% DOD. The "new Leaf range" should be based on the speeds and climate control usage you might reasonably expect. Modify the "new Leaf range" to match your schedule and climate.

That doesn't mean you can't drive more than 40 or 30 miles, it just means you shouldn't plan on doing this everyday, and especially as the battery nears EOL.

Nissan should be telling people this.
 
Sound like the business model of http://www.betterplace.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is sound better and better all the time...
 
WetEV said:
That doesn't mean you can't drive more than 40 or 30 miles, it just means you shouldn't plan on doing this everyday, and especially as the battery nears EOL.

Nissan should be telling people this.
Agreed, I just didn't want to understate the range too much for fear of getting an emotional response. Personally, I think that Leaf prospects might want to budget on 50 miles roundtrip, all things considered. Perhaps even less in extreme climates. Would it make sense to advertise two figures: nominal range when new and at end of life? Or is one very conservative figure better?
 
TonyWilliams said:
You know that Renault (sister company to Nissan) offers a 75% capacity guarantee on their leased battery?
Yes, but Renault doesn't use the AESC supplied batteries, they are using LG supplied batteries. You know - the same ones used in the Volt that are holding up very well.
 
Renault model is a bit different, you have to lease battery and this lease has limited number of kilometers per year that can be done. You also have to commit for a given time to such lease. In five year that would cost 6300$ with limit of 6210 miles per year.

Edit: Updated price (upwards) and mileage (downwards) to reflect current reality.
 
surfingslovak said:
WetEV said:
That doesn't mean you can't drive more than 40 or 30 miles, it just means you shouldn't plan on doing this everyday, and especially as the battery nears EOL.

Nissan should be telling people this.
Agreed, I just didn't want to understate the range too much for fear of getting an emotional response. Personally, I think that Leaf prospects might want to budget on 50 miles roundtrip, all things considered. Perhaps even less in extreme climates. Would it make sense to advertise two figures: nominal range when new and at end of life? Or is one very conservative figure better?

Personally, I'd expect that giving an understated range and explaining it is probably far better than giving an overstated range and not explaining it.
Look at it this way. Using 80% DOD or 40 miles, when new charging to 80% and never hitting LBW. When at EOL, charging to 100% and just starting to hit LBW on bad days. And yes, you can continue a bit past 70% EOL, however the increasing DOD is doing increasing wear on the battery. Once you are at EOL, you have very little margin for unexpected events.

So, I don't think that new Leaf range * 70% *80% is an understatement. Would you please explain why you think so?

Why 50 miles? Different EOL for the battery? Or different DOD? Or different new Leaf range? Please explain.
 
I've long figured (and stated) that the Leaf had a guaranteed, practical range for daily commuting in temperate conditions such as I have in the S.F. Bay Area, of 40 miles over the long-term, and perhaps only 30 miles in very cold climates, calculated thusly:

EPA cycle range when new, ideal conditions, 73 miles. Battery charged to 80% for longevity, so 73 x .8 = 58.4 miles. Battery shouldn't be discharged below LBW (= quicker degradation, no reserve) for routine driving, so subtract about 10 miles (~17%), for 48.4 miles. Decrease that to no more than 40 miles, to allow for HVAC/Defroster/lights/wipers. Note, I'm assuming that the car will be charged to 80% until that no longer provides adequate range, then a gradually increasing percentage between 80 -100% as needed, until the battery reaches whatever EOL % is acceptable (70-80%). If you want to be able to charge it to 80% of capacity the whole time you're commuting in it, then figure your guaranteed range by multiplying by .64 instead of .8 in the first step, then continue as before.

For really cold temps, I figure ranges will be decreased at least another ten miles owing to greater heat/defrost use and lower capacity due to temperature.

Obviously the range you can achieve will vary depending on your circumstances, but if the car were advertised and sold with realistic, guaranteed minimum ranges instead of ideal unrealistic maximum ranges, it would stop generating all the disappointed owners. This was the procedure I followed when selling AE systems, and while I passed on a fair number of sales I didn't have furious customers marching on my shop with torches and pitchforks, which is the situation Nissan now finds itself in.
 
WetEV said:
Personally, I'd expect that giving an understated range and explaining it is probably far better than giving an overstated range and not explaining it.
You are likely correct.

WetEV said:
Look at it this way. Using 80% DOD or 40 miles, when new charging to 80% and never hitting LBW. When at EOL, charging to 100% and just starting to hit LBW on bad days. And yes, you can continue a bit past 70% EOL, however the increasing DOD is doing increasing wear on the battery. Once you are at EOL, you have very little margin for unexpected events.
One problem Leafs with degraded packs seem to encounter today is the fixed nature of emergency reserves below the low battery warning. With a pack that's at 75% of nominal, the portion of usable range below LBW could approach 30%. Since it's difficult for many drivers to access, you might want to assume 50% of new nominal usable capacity in a degraded pack. This is effectively half of the originally advertised range or about 50 miles. If you wanted to take half of the EPA range, then we are looking at about 40 miles.
 
per GRA my calculations from REAL LIFE are different and I get an effective range of more than 50 miles.

I charge to 80% and get to work and back - 50 miles - with two bars left; this after 17 months and 17k miles.
two bars means 11-14 miles still to go before VLB for me.
The GOM also reads about 18 -22 miles, left when I arrive home.
That is with AC running at around 68 degrees. I dont use the heat much even in darker months, so I cant speak to that very well.

So the actual range at 80% is more like 60 miles.
I could be an outlier but that is my life.
 
thankyouOB said:
per GRA my calculations from REAL LIFE are different and I get an effective range of more than 50 miles.

I charge to 80% and get to work and back - 50 miles - with two bars left; this after 17 months and 17k miles.
two bars means 11-14 miles still to go before VLB for me.
The GOM also reads about 18 -22 miles, left when I arrive home.
That is with AC running at around 68 degrees. I dont use the heat much even in darker months, so I cant speak to that very well.

So the actual range at 80% is more like 60 miles.
I could be an outlier but that is my life.
The thing is, are you sure you will still be able to do so for however long you plan to keep the car? My calcs assume that you expect to keep the car for a minimum of 5 years without having to replace the battery (average U.S. new car kept for 6 years now), and that you won't go below LBW on a routine basis. Most cycle life calcs assume no lower than 80% DoD, which is roughly equivalent to the 17% of usable capacity that LBW is supposed to be.

What cheeses me off is Nissan and other EV companies advertising the cars based on their new battery range, when the batteries are going to degrade significantly. I know that, many people here know that, but Joe and Joan Q. Public probably don't know that.
 
Gra,
I get what you are saying about down the road or EOL.

i didnt see that EOL calculation in your calcs.
Perhaps, it was there and I just lost it in the clutter.

regardless:
80% of current 17-month-old range of 66-70 miles is still more than 50 miles.

As to useful life of the car, I am saving 2k-2.4k a year in gasoline, so if the range drops and drops, -- which it hasnt --i can afford a refreshed battery in 5 years, and with some money left over, I would think.

I am in the perfect climate, however, here along the SoCal coast.
So, I also get that YMMV and new owners should be forewarned about the caveat-emptor thingee and especially that, Leafwise, I am blessed with my usage, climate, location, etc.
 
WetEV said:
surfingslovak said:
WetEV said:
That doesn't mean you can't drive more than 40 or 30 miles, it just means you shouldn't plan on doing this everyday, and especially as the battery nears EOL.

Nissan should be telling people this.
Agreed, I just didn't want to understate the range too much for fear of getting an emotional response. Personally, I think that Leaf prospects might want to budget on 50 miles roundtrip, all things considered. Perhaps even less in extreme climates. Would it make sense to advertise two figures: nominal range when new and at end of life? Or is one very conservative figure better?

Personally, I'd expect that giving an understated range and explaining it is probably far better than giving an overstated range and not explaining it.
Right, no one ever complains if they exceed specs, only when they fall short.
 
GRA said:
Right, no one ever complains if they exceed specs, only when they fall short.
I think this sums up the Leaf situation succinctly. Perhaps it's worth adding that the spec should be conveyed in understandable terms.
 
surfingslovak said:
GRA said:
Right, no one ever complains if they exceed specs, only when they fall short.
I think this sums up the Leaf situation succinctly. Perhaps it's worth adding that the spec should be conveyed in understandable terms.

The whole point to this thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=230863#p230863" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Back
Top