Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

[thankyouOB]

Iletric,
U say u never chrage to 80%.
Does that mean u charge to 100%?
Or do u always charge <80% (less than)?

 

[JRP3]

In fact, there was a >50V difference in voltage at which the Phoenix range-test LEAFs turtled.

I originally said that, but it's not accurate. The two cars that had 350v-ish were just past the voltage "knee" at VLB, but had not made the plunge to 300v-ish at turtle. Therefore, those voltages should not be considered.

When I made the statement, I didn't qualify that important nuance. So, please just magically erase that from your memory!

In his most recent show, Jack Rickard of EVTV took your 50V difference and ran with it, concluding that there is no battery degradation but instead it is in fact a hall effect sensor error, and called it a BMS issue. Just remember, Jack loves to speak with authority on a subject, even if he's completely wrong.

 

[GPowers]

Here in So Cal, I saw a large drop in range when we had the 102 plus days back in August

 

[Nubo]

...
Everyone knows that the issue is the lack of a TMS of any kind in the Leaf.
...

That conclusion isn't universal. Nissan tested the affected AZ cars by removing the battery and testing it as an independent unit. Regardless of the poor communication, I doubt if they would simply lie about those results. The difference between those battery tests and the independent range tests would then seem to lie in --- the rest of the car, which includes the BMS, instrumentation ,sensors, software, etc...

 

[palmermd]

That conclusion isn't universal. Nissan tested the affected AZ cars by removing the battery and testing it as an independent unit. Regardless of the poor communication, I doubt if they would simply lie about those results. The difference between those battery tests and the independent range tests would then seem to lie in --- the rest of the car, which includes the BMS, instrumentation ,sensors, software, etc...

I hope the answer is that simple, that it is just sensors and instrumentation. It should be easy for Nissan to show us some data proving that this is the case, and that they are working on a permanent solution. I realize that a permanent solution may take months to develop and then test to make sure they are not introducing a whole new bunch of issues. A simple statement like this would go a long way to appeasing us.

 

[surfingslovak]

...
Everyone knows that the issue is the lack of a TMS of any kind in the Leaf.
...

That conclusion isn't universal. Nissan tested the affected AZ cars by removing the battery and testing it as an independent unit. Regardless of the poor communication, I doubt if they would simply lie about those results. The difference between those battery tests and the independent range tests would then seem to lie in --- the rest of the car, which includes the BMS, instrumentation ,sensors, software, etc...

Yes, as has been noted earlier, at least two cars (White626 and Red500) were tested in Casa Grande earlier this summer. The range test determined loss of autonomy, which was very close (0.5% - 2.5%) to the battery state of health communicated verbally to owners by Nissan.

Could we please bring this thread back on topic?

 

[gascant]

I would like to see Jeff, Andy, Mark and the whole gang come to Phoenix for a town hall on the issue. I know other areas have problems, but this is ground zero. We have easy airport access for any others who would like to come, and I would be more than happy to house at least one person in our casita.

This is actually a reasonable request, since Nissan engineers / execs / etc do go to Phoenix because they have a corporate facility there. The Dec 3, 2011 meeting of LEAF owners and Nissan principles at the Google headquarters was possible, in part, because the chief engineer was returning FROM Phoenix to sign off on the next EV coming from Nissan. They had a whole cross section of the engineering team, plus execs (I think 17 were from Nissan of the well over 100 people (and over 100 LEAFs) present that day. I flew in from San Diego to join up, and I thought it was awesome.

What is different is that the Google meeting was a huge Love Fest. They might not be quite as excited to have angry, loud, large Americans yelling at them at a proposed Phoenix meeting. Therefore, I think your chances are that if anybody showed up, it would be the folks who are hired to cover Nissan's back on its mistakes (low on engineers, high on lawyers and other "non-specific answer, don't sue us" folks). It's extremely unlikely that anything would be offered that might suggest in any way that there was any issue, which stops any resolution or comfort for you, the LEAF consumer.

Even during our Love Fest, we had the quality guy for Nissan ramble off legal disclaimers and ass-covering statements. That guy would have a heart attack at a Phoenix meet!!! I think there's a picture of he and I standing outside Google somewhere in this forum.

As the organizer of the Google meeting with Nissan's Engineering Team, plus Mark Perry and Tim Gallagher (Corporate Communications), I would hardly characterize it as a love fest. Several people who post here in this thread were in attendance and did not characterize it as such at the time, as you can see here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6049&start=240" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To recap, after starting with an introduction of the guests and appropriate "thank yous" there was a presentation from Chief Vehicle Engineer Hidetoshi Kadota on the testing done to the LEAF prior to its release. Fairly impressive crash test results, wherein the passenger and battery compartments remained largely intact (recall that the Volt crash test/battery fires were all over the news then). Following that, there were three owner presentations that were respectful, but very direct in pointing to some shortcomings: 1) The SOC and Range meters, 2) The IT systems, and 3) The inadequacy of the 120 V charging brick for the mobile, North American market (i.e., the request was to produce a 240V version). After a break to demonstrate owner modifications to the LEAF, we reconvened and Mark Perry conducted a Town Hall style session with Gary Brand, the North American Quality Director for EV's. I think it's fair to say that they got an earful and more on the SOC and Range meters from many passionate owners, who welcomed the chance to talk directly to Nissan.

Did this meeting have an impact? Well, if you go to Carwings, you can now see an Energy Forecast Feature for predicting how much juice you'll use getting from point A to point B (accounting for driving style, altitude variation, and using crowd sourced data from actual drivers). The manager of the IT Office confirmed to me that this project was a direct result of the Google meeting, as was the press release on the topic issued at the New York Auto Show in April. This service is still under development, but plans are to transfer to the LEAF in the future. We were not successful at convincing Nissan to release a 240V brick in North America, and I'm guessing that the alliances they announced in New York with Google and Intel on IT systems were already in the works. So, 1 for 3 on technical improvement suggestions, but validation that their existing plans for IT were on track.

However, Nissan did feel that the Google meeting was worthwhile enough that they decided to participate with us in National Plug In Day in San Francisco. Fast forward to this past weekend, when they sent 13 people to meet with over 300 owners and guests in unscripted one-on-one discussions. Again, I think it's fair to say that they got an earful on the hot topic of the day, especially from some owners that participate in this thread. As well, a manager from the Product Development group in Yokohama told me that, when Kadota-san returned home from the Google meeting, he delivered a very simple message: "Fix Guess-O-Meter". During his remarks, Brendan Jones made a point of recognizing owners for helping to sell LEAFs and was happy to be engaging further with all of us, saying (positively) that LEAF owners are unlike any others he's met in over 25 years in the car business.

The point of this is to say that I think the meeting proposed above is a great idea, and that I doubt it will be filled with legal (or other) platitudes. I'm confident that it will have impact so long as comments made by the participants are carefully thought out and conveyed respectfully. As well, I suggest that all participants respect their fellow participants and allow everyone the chance to speak. It might be good to have a moderator (Chelsea?) that facilitates the discussion and does place some reasonable limits on individual comment times.

 

[evchels]

I think her point is that she is hoping that the capacity issue will be mostly resolved and won't be the "hot topic" once the advisory board is put together. If it is still the hot topic, then Nissan and this advisory board will have their hands full.

Yes, that was essentially my point. There are two main components to the capacity issue as I see it:

1) The "customer service" component is the most urgent. From this standpoint, it almost doesn't matter anymore what is or isn't wrong with the car (no tomatoes yet! ). The overall situation needs to be made right to the extent possible for anyone acutely affected and the concerns of other current and future 2012 owners alleviated through a "guaranteed buyback" plan or other remedy. If a relevant advisory board were already in place, it might weigh in on the appropriate solution. But as it will realistically take a little time for a global advisory board to be assembled and launched, this shouldn't wait on that- which it why I said that I hoped the group didn't have to address it because it had already been resolved, even if not fully executed. It's also why I was asking the questions I was yesterday about the different camps people were in, potential resolutions, etc.

2) The "technical" component may take longer, I don't know- it will depend on the ultimate "what is/isn't wrong with the car" conclusion and how much dialogue it takes to get there. Obviously you all want more information from Nissan than you have, and they may need more from you. But if the "safety net" is in place for 2011/12 drivers, then this piece doesn't have to happen quite so fast.

It's also worth noting (as I've seen is misinterpreted in several articles) that the group is not going to be specifically a technical advisory group, and not all members will come from that background and interest. But I do hope that once organized, it can help Nissan better understand how to talk to potential buyers about range complexities and other technical subjects, as well as communicate about and better manage product or process issues with the drivers so that nothing else ever gets to this point again.

 

[jspearman]

The point of this is to say that I think the meeting proposed above is a great idea, and that I doubt it will be filled with legal (or other) platitudes. I'm confident that it will have impact so long as comments made by the participants are carefully thought out and conveyed respectfully. As well, I suggest that all participants respect their fellow participants and allow everyone the chance to speak. It might be good to have a moderator (Chelsea?) that facilitates the discussion and does place some reasonable limits on individual comment times.

Thanks for the thoughts. I wonder if the School of Sustainability at ASU might be interested in hosting such a meeting? Does anyone know folks down there? I seem to remember a battery engineer guy who knows Opossum who attended. ASU would have plenty of space for a meeting, especially on a weekend, plus Tempe campus is on the light rail and has at least six charging stations.

 

[linkim]

The point of this is to say that I think the meeting proposed above is a great idea, and that I doubt it will be filled with legal (or other) platitudes. I'm confident that it will have impact so long as comments made by the participants are carefully thought out and conveyed respectfully. As well, I suggest that all participants respect their fellow participants and allow everyone the chance to speak. It might be good to have a moderator (Chelsea?) that facilitates the discussion and does place some reasonable limits on individual comment times.

Thanks for the thoughts. I wonder if the School of Sustainability at ASU might be interested in hosting such a meeting? Does anyone know folks down there? I seem to remember a battery engineer guy who knows Opossum who attended. ASU would have plenty of space for a meeting, especially on a weekend, plus Tempe campus is on the light rail and has at least six charging stations.

Gascant made some excellent suggestions on how we handled the meeting with Nissan at Google last December. It would also be helpful if your recommendations/comments were available in document form. This is very important if there are engineers from Nissan Japan because they may not follow the comments by Americans who tend to speak too quickly (especially by enthusiastic/emotional speakers). We provided Nissan with hardcopies (as well as electronic files) of our presentations (some were even translated in Japanese) to facilitate their understanding of the discussion. We also provided Nissan with advance copies of our presentations, as well.

The presentations were made in a respectful manner to help them understand our concerns/recommendations. There were a few testy moments, but the fact we were able to entice them to return in mass for our LEAF celebration on Sept. 23 is a testament to the SF BayLEAF members showing their respect to our Nissan visitors. The LEAF owners in the Bay Area are not (yet?) experiencing the same LEAF issues, so maybe our passions don't rise as high as the owners in the "hot-temperature" regions in interacting with Nissan. Best wishes in your efforts to arrange a meeting with Nissan to address the range/battery capacity problems and
satisfy your problems.

 

[Yanquetino]

As I mentioned in an addendum to my post last week, Mark Perry said in his interview that, starting today, Nissan would be contacting the owners of the seven Leafs analyzed to set up face-to-face meetings. I'm curious to know: did any of those initial contacts take place?

 

[Volusiano]

Iletric,
U say u never chrage to 80%.
Does that mean u charge to 100%?
Or do u always charge <80% (less than)?

My understanding is that he always charges to 100% no matter what/where/when. I think that he even has the opinion that holding 100% charge in the battery a long time is good for it.

When he said charging to 100% "stretches" battery capacity, and 80% "shrinks" it, he's using the analogy of an expandable/collapsible bladder with memory effect. The more you stretch, the more it holds. The more you "shrink" at 80%, the less it holds.

He said that his method is totally contrary to conventional wisdom, but he claims that the unorthodox approach works for him based on his own stellar capacity result to back it up. He also points to the fact that it looks like people in the traditional 80% camp don't achieve having stellar results like he does. Instead, they all run into capacity problems.

At least that's my understanding of what he's saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I personally think there's more to it than meet the eye on his claim. Maybe he's having good results because he doesn't let his 100% sit very long but not realizing this. Maybe he's having good results because he's not affected by hot climate. Maybe he's having good results because of other unknown favorable factors despite of his 100% approach.

So while he's attributing his luck to the 100% charge approach, his luck could have been entirely due to something else. Who knows? The question is, are you willing to try out his claim?

To me, it's like the following analogy. Doctors tell people to keep clean to be healthy. But some people are healthy despite being dirty, in fact, they can be healthier than the people who try to stay clean. So they draw (unscientific) conclusion that being dirty is actually better than being clean, based on their own anecdotal evidence. So are you willing to try and be dirty to see if you will get the same good result?

 

[dsh]

We may have an alternative(see Below Link):

http://nissanleafproblems.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stay Tuned Arizona and California LEAF owners...

So basically, if you aren't one of the seven identified owners, you're screwed. No acknowledgement of other owners with problems in TX, CA, FL and no proposed ensured satisfaction for anyone OTHER than the seven referenced owners. That's really unacceptable.

After reading the letter, it seems to me that only the magnificent seven will get something from Nissan.

 

[surfingslovak]

We may have an alternative(see Below Link):

http://nissanleafproblems.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stay Tuned Arizona and California LEAF owners...

So basically, if you aren't one of the seven identified owners, you're screwed. No acknowledgement of other owners with problems in TX, CA, FL and no proposed ensured satisfaction for anyone OTHER than the seven referenced owners. That's really unacceptable.

After reading the letter, it seems to me that only the magnificent seven will get something from Nissan.

Did you happen to read Chealsea's earlier comment? I believe she might have addressed the concern Vicki raised.

 

[nosuchthing]

The car is driven every day in Marin County/SF. Temps around here range from 50 to 80 with ocassional 90's. For those who don't know. Winter is cooler, of course.

I'm aware of the fact not to keep 100% charge for days on end. So when the car was not driven recently for a week, for example, it was left at a low charge. Obviously.

Otherwise, no matter what SOC it's left at the end of the day it gets charged at night to 100%. My wife, who is the principal driver, won't have it any other way, because Leaf is a one-trick-pony and the recharging takes way too long to turn it around for another longer trip if needed on a short notice. And she never knows how many miles she'll be driving any given day. There is a mild range anxiety factor at play here as well.

Your dirt analogy actually is well known to medicine and dirt exposure is essential to stimulate immune system. It keeps you healthy and prevents overuse of antibiotics in early age which is blamed for developing childhood asthma. So, to burst your bubble, dirt is good.

No magic Leaf formula here, folks. Nothing to speculate about. I get 73 miles at 65, more in slower speeds. I've been zeroing my trip meter when I get to drive the car these days, and keep a keen eye (as I posted earlier) on GOM + trip calculation if it adds up to over 70. So far no problems at 26,500/19 months. I must admit I had no idea heat could kill that battery. On that note, I would never want to live in 100+ F anywhere. So in a way we're lucky here in Bay Area with our natural Pacific refrigeration. It's good for the Leaf...

...as long as you keep that battery stretched at least once a day. Ha! :mrgreen:

And one more thing: I recently upped my tires to 38psi and it increased my lifetime average to 3.7m/kW. It had been sitting on 3.6 all this time and dropped to 3.5 in winter b/c of heater use.

 

[herekittykitty]

"It's not a problem" is not what these people want to hear. Obviously it is a problem for these people. Saying it's not a problem does what exactly? Does it reassure the rest of us? Yeah, it reassures us that Nissan doesn't step up and take action for customers.

Nissans reaction is confusing to say the least. I don't think people want talk. They want Nissan to do something.

+1

 

[herekittykitty]

We may have an alternative(see Below Link):

http://nissanleafproblems.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stay Tuned Arizona and California LEAF owners...

Sadly, not really an alternative. This is just a law firm looking to file a class action lawsuit to line their own pockets.

 

[etracing]

We may have an alternative(see Below Link):

http://nissanleafproblems.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Stay Tuned Arizona and California LEAF owners...

Sadly, not really an alternative. This is just a law firm looking to file a class action lawsuit to line their own pockets.

Agreed........ unless SEVERAL of them at the firm really own a LEAF.... (not just one of the file clerks) :O

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

"Battery stretching" as stated above is not a real thing; any problems not noticed at $26k are in spite of this continual 100% charging, not because of it. It's well known across the industry, for laptops to cars, that a lower peak charge is better on battery life than 100%.

 

[Volusiano]

Your dirt analogy actually is well known to medicine and dirt exposure is essential to stimulate immune system. It keeps you healthy and prevents overuse of antibiotics in early age which is blamed for developing childhood asthma. So, to burst your bubble, dirt is good.

Actually that was exactly why I picked the dirt analogy to begin with, so don't worry, you didn't burst my bubble. I'm fully aware of the view of dirt being good from the perspective that it can help stimulate the immune system.

The question is how much dirt may be good, and when too much dirt is bad. That's why I picked that analogy to make my point.