Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

[NYLEAF]

The Leaf's battery life issue is one that was known before the car was sold. The problem isn't with the car, or the battery, it is with the sales and advertising. Nissan is blowing this big time.

Yep. When I testdrove a Leaf yesterday I couldn't help noticing they advertised 96 - 110 mile range on the window. Even new that's unlikely and after just 20,000 miles the battery will have degraded to the point it's impossible. Nissan is deliberately misleading the public & breaking the law. (They should only advertise the EPA rating/range.)

That 96/110 figure you saw is the EPA's "MPG-equivalent" rating for the Leaf, similar to how a gas-powered car would have MPG figures on the window sticker. That is not the EPA's range estimate for the Leaf, which is 73 miles. Even when the pack is significantly (whatever that means!) degraded, the car will still return these MPGe values.

The problem is that, before the Leaf was in customer's hands, Nissan frequently threw around the "100 miles per charge" claim, as well as all of their claims about capacity loss in 5 and 10 years. The 100 miles per charge figure was based on the L4A test cycle, which produces a range estimate that isn't all that realistic. The 2-cycle test that the 2011/2012 Leaf underwent resulted in a 73 mile range estimate, which is more realistic. The EPA now uses a 5-cycle test, which the Leaf has not get undergone. The Tesla Model S (85kWh version), for example, was rated at 265 miles on the 5-cycle test. Comparing all of these different range estimates is like comparing apples to oranges, at least until all the cars are being given the same test!

 

[evchels]

Nothing personal against Chelsea and Jeff, but the creation of the proposed "advisory board" is a well known smokescreen and delaying tactic....There is absolutely no "communication problem" that needs to be addressed by "advisors". There is only a craven and absolutely unacceptable corporate response to having released a poorly designed and defective product.

The advisory group idea was actually not conceived to address the battery capacity issue, though since it was talked about in Carla's letter I understand why it would seem that way. I am also clearly interested in that discussion and seeing it resolved, but these are separate efforts. Because it will take a little time to get the advisory group together, I really hope it doesn't have to specifically address the capacity issue - at least in the sense of it still being an acute customer service concern. I realize the technical discussion and long-term approach will be ongoing, and it should.

 

[theaveng]

If you only advertise EPA range, you are only telling the story of how far the car can go in the first few months to maybe two years (depending if you live in Seattle / Portland / downtown San Fran / England, or if you live in Phoenix).

Certainly better to advertise EPA range then "96 to 110 miles" like I saw Nissan attach to my testdrive leaf yesterday! BTW if I had a bad battery that could no longer carry me the 60 miles to work, I'd deliberately run it out of range, and then call Nissan Road Service to pick me up and taxi me the rest of the way. Every day. Let the battery issue be as big a hassle for Nissan as it is for me.

 

[copdoc]

+1 on "range to automated nagging to plug in the car"

I charge to 80% regularly per Nissan's recommendation. With occasional highway (3.5 mpkwh), occasional climate control, and fairly careful driving, I can go about 50 miles before I need to recharge for my 25 miles the next day. That's the real number for me. My car has a range of 50 miles. Fortunately for me (and a lot of other people), that's fine. If capacity loss means I will have to charge every night instead of every other night, .... well, there it is. I own and expect to continue to own my car for 10+ years.

As long as I've worked with EVs, the drivers have always wanted more information and the automakers have always worried about giving too much, both for legal reasons and out of fear of overwhelming the less geeky. I think there's a reachable middle ground, and that the flexibility and connectivity of vehicle technology today allows for new drivers to start simple and access more information (whether on the dash, online, or in an app) as they become more comfortable. Those that don't want it don't ever have to have it.

You've got a great platform already for making this happen: add menus under the Energy Economy stuff on the nav computer. People who want to dig into all the numbers can and those who don't want to can ignore them.


My question for Nissan:
Instead of warrantying the car, can you give us a "not-to-exceed" cost for the replacement battery? And assurance that when you've built a better battery we'll be able to upgrade our cars?

My question for all of you:
Do you really think Nissan has the answers you're looking for? All the statistics you can run on X cars in the lab or in construction will NOT tell you what 10,000X cars will behave like all over the world. We were so excited to get the cars as fast as possible. Engineering design is all about what you can do within real world limits. Limits like cost and time and sub-contracted parts manufacturers who don't really know about their parts to the precision you need to give your own clients the precision they want. We knew we were first adopters (read guinea pigs). And we also knew that many Americans are litigious and will go after a company who talks. Why exactly are you surprised?

Consider the number of variables Tony tried to deal with in his range test or ElectricVehicle mentioned for the heater test. Compound this with the sensor Ingineer has discussed repeatedly.

Every number you will ever get from Nissan will be an average. It will never be exactly what you need since your situation is guaranteed to be different than the average. If one in a zillion babies die from a disease, but that one is yours, ......

 

[downeykp]

Really? You would? Wouldn't you want some of these issues fixed before you would possibly put someone in the position that many who are having capacity issues are in?
I have not heard that there is even a problem from Nissan. Check me if I am wrong, but trade-in values can't be good. I would rather err on the side of caution before recommending to anyone.

The Leaf's battery life issue is one that was known before the car was sold. The problem isn't with the car, or the battery, it is with the sales and advertising. Nissan is blowing this big time. Admit the issue, give the owners in hot places an escape from their lease or purchase, publish a battery replacement pack price, add a warranty on the batteries and perhaps Nissan can recover some of the goodwill they have lost.

I would recomend a Leaf to someone in Seattle or similar climates. I would caution someone in Arizona to plan on 70% loss of capacity in 35,000 miles (maybe more, maybe less).

So you would with a caveat? How is that a recommendation?

 

[vrwl]

OPEN LETTER TO THE LEAF COMMUNITY
From Carla Bailo

... We identified seven LEAF owners in the Phoenix area who had reported concerns with their vehicles. With their agreement we brought the cars to Nissan’s Arizona test facility, where we removed the batteries for evaluation, measured capacity, and conducted voltage testing on individual battery cells. These tests were diagnostic only; no modifications were performed to the battery packs themselves.

... This week, we will meet with these LEAF owners to share our findings on their individual vehicles.

... As we work with individual owners to ensure their satisfaction, we are appreciative of your continued support of both the Nissan LEAF and the electric vehicle movement, overall.

Best Regards,
Carla Bailo
Senior Vice President, Research & Development – Nissan Americas

So basically, if you aren't one of the seven identified owners, you're screwed. No acknowledgement of other owners with problems in TX, CA, FL and no proposed ensured satisfaction for anyone OTHER than the seven referenced owners. That's really unacceptable.

 

[Nubo]

I do not currently own a Leaf, but was on the verge of buying one when I stumbled upon this forum and the news about the capacity losses.
.
.
.
I suggest that ALL Leaf owners contact their local congressman/woman and apply some pressure for governmental action, given that the Obama administration used $1.4 billion of taxpayers' money to subsidize Nissan's Tennessee Leaf factory.

(See http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/nov/27/nissans-99-mpg-smugmobile/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

Yeah, I can see from your "smugmobile" source reference that you were right on the cusp of buying a LEAF... :roll:

 

[theaveng]

Thanks Nubo for highlighting that article, which otherwise I would have missed. "The true costs - the billions in subsidies - and the true emissions - those at mostly coal-fired power plants - are concealed from the end user. Washington state Gov. Chris Gregoire announced in June that taxpayers around the country would subsidize the nation’s first “true electrified highway” to support the Leavespassing through the Evergreen State. This is part of a broader effort to install chargers along the 1,350-mile length of Interstate 5 from the Canadian to the Mexican border. In a lowcost [$13,500] Ford Fiesta, it would require two fuel stops and $105 to complete the 20-hour journey.

"By contrast, the Leaf could make the same trip using subsidized electricity paid by the taxpaper. Yet it isn’t so simple. The Leaf would require 18 recharging stops lasting eight hours each, according to Nissan’s own figures using the type of chargers planned for I-5. That means the “environmentally responsible” trip would take six days and cost hundreds of dollars for stays in roadside motels of dubious quality."


Read more: EDITORIAL: Nissan's 99 MPG smugmobile - Washington Times http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/nov/27/nissans-99-mpg-smugmobile/#ixzz27VEQyb00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

 

[Nubo]

Yes, I love how they thought maybe they hadn't driven their point home quite totally, and decided they could put an even finer edge on it with the "motels of dubious quality"... :lol:

 

[NYLEAF]

"By contrast, the Leaf could make the same trip using subsidized electricity paid by the taxpaper. Yet it isn’t so simple. The Leaf would require 18 recharging stops lasting eight hours each, according to Nissan’s own figures using the type of chargers planned for I-5. That means the “environmentally responsible” trip would take six days and cost hundreds of dollars for stays in roadside motels of dubious quality."

Simply not true. Those are QCs, not Level 2. Shame on whoever wrote that article.

I guess the real question here is, why isn't Nissan building higher-quality roadside motels in the Pacific NW?

 

[theaveng]

No the real question is: Why am I being forced to fund refueling stations along I-5? Gas stations are privately-owned. The electric stations should be as well.

I don't expect taxpayers to give me free gasoline in my insight just because it has a battery in it, and nor should I have to fund their joyride in the Nissan "dying battery" vehicle. I'm tired of busting my butt to earn money & then have it used to give other people free or cheap stuff. If THEY want something then THEY should pay for it, not me. Furthermore: I hope this debacle puts Nissan into bankrutpcy like GM, and the Japaense are focred to bail them out (or better yet: just let them die). I hate corporations; always trying to screw the citizen with shoddy product or theft from the public treasury.

Yeah yeah I know: "You're making a big deal out of nothing." I hear the same thing when people claim the 16 trillion dollar debt is nothing to worry about (add another 3 trillion for state debt). People act as if money grows on trees and you can just spend, spend, spend without any consquences. Maybe they've never experienced what it's like to be poor, as I have, and the annoyance of the government taking your last dollar in order to study monarch butterflies (or similar nonsense).

"Adding 4 trillion dollars to the debt is unpatriotic!" - Candidate Obama in 08

 

[thankyouOB]

can we please eliminate the troll, or send him back to the fantasy land he claims to be from?
he is spamming numerous posts with his ideological BS.

 

[charge]

Nothing personal against Chelsea and Jeff, but the creation of the proposed "advisory board" is a well known smokescreen and delaying tactic....There is absolutely no "communication problem" that needs to be addressed by "advisors". There is only a craven and absolutely unacceptable corporate response to having released a poorly designed and defective product.

The advisory group idea was actually not conceived to address the battery capacity issue, though since it was talked about in Carla's letter I understand why it would seem that way. I am also clearly interested in that discussion and seeing it resolved, but these are separate efforts. Because it will take a little time to get the advisory group together, I really hope it doesn't have to specifically address the capacity issue - at least in the sense of it still being an acute customer service concern. I realize the technical discussion and long-term approach will be ongoing, and it should.

What, what what??? IMHO the battery issue has to be addressed first then we can move on to other topics. I think we'll have a hard time getting folks to focus on other points until this issue is resolved.

 

[palmermd]

The advisory group idea was actually not conceived to address the battery capacity issue, though since it was talked about in Carla's letter I understand why it would seem that way. I am also clearly interested in that discussion and seeing it resolved, but these are separate efforts. Because it will take a little time to get the advisory group together, I really hope it doesn't have to specifically address the capacity issue - at least in the sense of it still being an acute customer service concern. I realize the technical discussion and long-term approach will be ongoing, and it should.

What, what what??? IMHO the battery issue has to be addressed first then we can move on to other topics. I think we'll have a hard time getting folks to focus on other points until this issue is resolved.

I think her point is that she is hoping that the capacity issue will be mostly resolved and won't be the "hot topic" once the advisory board is put together. If it is still the hot topic, then Nissan and this advisory board will have their hands full.

 

[eclecticflower]

@ theaveng: You are a troll, trying to incite hate. That attitude isn't needed here. B'bye, troll...

 

[cwerdna]

To start, on Thursday we will have a chance to sit down and talk with Andy Palmer while at the Paris Motor Show. Andy has agreed to take questions and to answer them in a video that we will post no later than Friday. We will begin to solicit questions via our Facebook page. I invite you to send your questions.

FWIW, on the Nissan Leaf page at https://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf/posts/461744220515043" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, they're soliciting questions and people are asking them.

What would you ask Nissan Executive Vice President, Andy Palmer, about the 100% electric Nissan LEAF?
...
Nissan Executive Vice President, Andy Palmer, will be answering some of your questions about the 100% electric Nissan LEAF in a video from the floor of the Paris Motor Show. Submit your questions now in the comments and check back later this week for the answers!

 

[theaveng]

@ theaveng: You are a troll, trying to incite hate. That attitude isn't needed here. B'bye, troll...

What's with the name-calling? You certainly wouldn't like it I called you "ass" or "dick" but you think it's okay to call me "troll" or "idiot"??? I'm sorry you dislike my opinion buit I'm not changing just because you resort to grade-school insults/names. Corporations suck. Watch Rachel Maddow sometime.... she agrees.

 

[MrIanB]

@ theaveng: You are a troll, trying to incite hate. That attitude isn't needed here. B'bye, troll...

What's with the name-calling? You certainly wouldn't like it I called you "ass" or "dick" but you think it's okay to call me "troll" or "idiot"??? I'm sorry you dislike my opinion buit I'm not changing just because you resort to grade-school insults/names. Corporations suck. Watch Rachel Maddow sometime.... she agrees.

Guys, this is not a political forum, it is about the Nissan Leaf.

Please stay on topic for everyone's sake.

Thanks,

Ian B

 

[Yanquetino]

Recently, we’ve asked Chelsea Sexton, a passionate advanced technology advocate, to convene an independent global advisory board. Members would be selected by Chelsea, not Nissan, and they would recommend their own mandate, but our hope is that they would hold up a mirror to us and help us to be more open and approachable in our communication and to advise us on our strategy. We should have more information on the advisory board in a few weeks.

Best Regards,
Carla Bailo
Senior Vice President, Research & Development – Nissan Americas

Chelsea: I would like to enthusiastically nominate to serve on your advisory board... Phil Sadow, aka "Ingineer," the talented visionary who has enhanced so many of our Leafs with his 240V cordset upgrade, his control-your-heater modification, and hopefully someday his turbo "long ranger” trailer.

His intelligence, knowledge, and skills are unassailable, his commitment to the Leaf in particular and the EV movement in general is unwaivering, and... he is a genuinely thoughtful, helpful, friendly, open person.

I'm sure others will second my motion without hesitation.

 

[gsleaf]

Agreed. I second that notion as well. Phil is amazing. He is exactly the type of person you would want on the advisory board.

Chelsea: I would like to enthusiastically nominate to serve on your advisory board... Phil Sadow, aka "Ingineer," the talented visionary who has enhanced so many of our Leafs with his 240V cordset upgrade, his control-your-heater modification, and hopefully someday his turbo "long ranger” trailer.

His intelligence, knowledge, and skills are unassailable, his commitment to the Leaf in particular and the EV movement in general is unwaivering, and... he is a genuinely thoughtful, helpful, friendly, open person.

I'm sure others will second my motion without hesitation.