Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

[evchels]

How cool would it have been if Nissan could have reinvented the distribution channel? Build out one really cool dealer in the middle of the city, where you can see the car inside and out, where the salesman doesn't work on commission, where there are just a few enthusiastic, well-paid, well-informed people who can and will tell the full truth about the car.

Yup. Even without new or specialized dealers, this is one of the biggest areas of potential improvement, for any automaker in the EV world. And it's one I've always been passionate about, having worked in a retailer myself and then training and working with dozens of them. It's not a perfect system, but the knees we skinned then can be helpful now.

In the meantime, if anyone knows how to clone guys like Brendan and Paul...

 

[EdmondLeaf]

How cool would it have been if Nissan could have reinvented the distribution channel? Build out one really cool dealer in the middle of the city, where you can see the car inside and out, where the salesman doesn't work on commission, where there are just a few enthusiastic, well-paid, well-informed people who can and will tell the full truth about the car.

I thought I was the one to help Nissan to sell/market Leaf in my area and I was ready to do that for free. In fact I helped local dealer to sell first two Leafs in my area. My enthusiasm was a bit diminished when my request for promo material was ignored, and further diminished when I requested more info on temperature effect on batteries. I understand that I was one of many Leaf owners, but for a long time I was the only one in my area. I still think Leaf is very cool car, but it is a victim of lack of communication between Nissan and owners, as well as, indifference of dealers that in some cases may know less about the Leaf ,than people that want to buy it.

 

[downeykp]

So I guess at this point, who is satisfied with Nissan's response? Additionally, is there anyone out there who would recommend a Leaf or any Nissan product to anyone? This is not standing by a customer!!
We went out on a limb and trusted Nissan and believed all of their BS. We paid a lot of money to try and help foster the real ev movement and this is the thanks we get. This really pis*es me off because I actually purchased this piece of Sh*t.
I have no choice. Something better from Nissan had better be coming.

Sorry, downeykp, but I disagree with your comment that the Leaf is a "piece of Sh*t

Maybe piece of sh*t was the wrong word. My decision making at the time was sh*t. I bought into the hoopla of Nissan and what the cars capabilities were. Buying at the time seemed like a good idea. I buy and then drive into the ground. Leasing has never been good business sense.

I would agree that the Leaf is a neat car. But I do not feel like Nissan cares (and I do not have any range loss). Like many, I am hoping that Nissan comes clean and makes all of this right, but they are in cya mode now.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

In the meantime, if anyone knows how to clone guys like Brendan and Paul...

There are many of them, I really want to help market Leaf in my area, but I had strong feeling that Nissan really did not need/want my help - look my previous post.

 

[LEAFer]

... it's about how far you can drive the car.

:shock: Quote of the month !
And the problem with the hot-area cars is ... they are a LOT worse than the milder climate cars.


An idea that came to me in the shower ( just a short while ago ;-) ) ... which I immediately dismissed, but then reconsidered.

@Chels: Get yourself one of the degraded LEAFs. Buy it, take over the lease, whatever. It must be made clear that you are NOT in Nissan's pocket and that Nissan made no contribution to your ownership of a LEAF. Now you have a strong position on the advisory board !

How about jspearman's LEAF ?

HTH.

Off to NPID in Folsom ...

 

[spooka]

For those of you who don't follow the Nissan FB page, they posted at https://www.facebook.com/Nissan/posts/443432732375883" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We at Nissan are committed to our customers and our products. After concerns arose about battery capacity loss in Phoenix-area LEAFs, Nissan tested the vehicles and has concluded that loss is consistent with usage.

Thanks for that heads up.. I just posted a snarky comment.

My FB response...

"Loss is consistent with usage." My LEAF "usage" in Phoenix for 13 months was 13,500miles, 10% highway driving/90% city, zero quick charges (to that point) AND I STILL EXPERIENCED A "LOSS" OF 2 CAPACITY BARS. My annual Nissan battery pack test from last week stated (with my LEAF at 14,500 miles) that my scores were "very high and good" for my battery in all categories tested. I spoke with the Nissan LEAF service specialist at the dealership and asked what the percentage loss of capacity 2 bars equated to as a numerical value. He referred me to Nissan's EV support team. When I called them and asked, I was told by the EV rep I would not be able to get that number. Where is the commitment if you are withholding basic battery info from owners? Don't we have a right on a $38,000 purchase to have basic battery info? If "loss is consistent with usage", why have I lost the same amount of capacity bars at 13,500 miles while others have lost their second bar at 26,000 miles? Please explain your statement further Nissan. It makes no sense to this owner.


Happy National Plug In Day everyone. I'd be there but I'm currently in the middle of an 18 hour L1 charge right now with the goal of diminishing my capacity loss further...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Holy crap, I am busting a gut here. I want the life size MP cutout for my living room!!!

I'm guessing that Nissan means they will physically stand beside the Leaf and their owners. Each complaint will result in a technician being sent to the person's house, a photo taken with them, the technician, and the car. Then it's posted to Facebook for proof that they are truly standing beside their owners. Maybe Azdre will get a photo of their car at Casa Grande, with several Japanese engineers giving them the thumbs up. Escalated complaints will get a Mark Perry life-sized cutout they can place next to their cars, along with a battery-powered fan to cool themselves as they drive through Arizona heat with no air-conditioning in order to make it to work and back on one charge.

Thanks for standing by me, Nissan! I feel so much better now.

 

[evchels]

In the meantime, if anyone knows how to clone guys like Brendan and Paul...

There are many of them, I really want to help market Leaf in my area, but I had strong feeling that Nissan really did not need/want my help - look my previous post.

You're right. While my comment was in jest, I didn't mean to overlook that.

I will ask about marketing materials. Every owner should have a stack of brochures in his/her car, and know how to easily to get more.

I'd actually also like to see periodic "new owner clinics" held at the dealers (yes, hails from my Saturn roots!), though facilitated by current owners. When someone buys a brand new car, the last thing they want to hear - or will retain - is conservative driving tips required to get the most range. I'd tell new buyers to go enjoy their LEAF for a few weeks, and to expect X range in that time for that region (say, 70ish here in SoCal). Then invite them back to learn from experienced drivers all the little nuggets you guys have discovered over time about how to make that experience even better and how to connect with forums like these and orgs like PIA if they haven't already.

Similarly, I'd like more utilities or cities to host workshops for those thinking of getting an EV. SMUD has done a good one- they get local owners and dealers to bring out the different examples of available plug-ins, and give presentations about EVs, infrastructure, rates, etc. It's agnostic as to type of vehicle or charger, and gives people a centralized place to just come learn, and to talk to actual drivers.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Similarly, I'd like more utilities or cities to host workshops for those thinking of getting an EV. SMUD has done a good one- they get local owners and dealers to bring out the different examples of available plug-ins, and give presentations about EVs, infrastructure, rates, etc. It's agnostic as to type of vehicle or charger, and gives people a centralized place to just come learn, and to talk to actual drivers.

SDG&E does a great job in this area, and recently opened their "Innovation Center" with a million dollar (of my rate payer money) solar tracking and DC Chademo charger (PUC won't allow utilities to offer charges for public consumption).

I really like drees' suggestions. What would a proposed Nissan range chart look like, that would be different from mine? Simplified?

I love the dealer workshops, provided they are trained uniformly. I would put the real range data on the car's window in the dealer's lot. I would send "the Commision" to every dealership for a hands on frank discussion about LEAF and the greater future EV transition. Plenty of sales people are full of it (they rightly want to make a sale, and sometimes will say anything to do that) so including the data on the car cuts out the surprise in the back office (like the 80% charging thing, I learned about in finance).

And don't do it once and think everything will be ok. It needs periodic hammering, until EV's are mainstream.

Let's not continue with the LEAF is sh*t comments, and continue to offer Chelsea ideas to use moving forward (unless you want to see EV's fail).

 

[EdmondLeaf]

When someone buys a brand new car, the last thing they want to hear - or will retain - is conservative driving tips required to get the most range. I'd tell new buyers to go enjoy their LEAF for a few weeks, and to expect X range in that time for that region (say, 70ish here in SoCal). Then invite them back to learn from experienced drivers all the little nuggets you guys have discovered over time about how to make that experience even better and how to connect with forums like these and orgs like PIA if they haven't already.

In case of Leaf I think great idea is to give prospective owner demonstrator car for extended drive/daily routine drive so it will fill comfortable with it, or same what GM is doing - "you do not like it, bring it back within first month". I also feel it is very important to give prospective owner upfront, honest and accurate info about car performance, range, and battery care and degradation/performance.

this is from "GRA"

When nurturing a new technology, under-promise and over-deliver rather than the opposite.

 

[downeykp]

I think that is the point. EVs will fail if Nissan stays in cya mode. They need to get out in front of this. Will it cost them a lot of money to fix this? Yes!!! But think of the money they will lose if they don't. This car is going nowhere without our support. If they lose us they lose the EV market.

 

[Nubo]

I'm willing to give Nissan the benefit of the doubt as regards their battery-only testing at Casa Grande.

But, if the batteries are not as bad off as it seems, then something else IS.

This is where Tony's holistic approach to range-demonstration was well thought-out. And timely it now appears.

Nissan still need to address the range degradation whether it's due to battery, instrumentation, fudged coulomb-counting, or Tribbles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm willing to give Nissan the benefit of the doubt as regards their battery-only testing at Casa Grande.

But, if the batteries are not as bad off as it seems, then something else IS.

This is where Tony's holistic approach to range-demonstration was well thought-out. And timely it now appears.

Nissan still need to address the range degradation whether it's due to battery, instrumentation, fudged coulomb-counting, or Tribbles.

I think we got a little lucky with our demonstration timing, but I really want Scott's four bar loser in the test (which he turned in that afternoon... I'll bet the battery is already off to Nissan for study).

RANGE, RANGE, RANGE !!!! The mass consuming doesn't give a hoot about how that's done. If it goes down without explanation, they will be unhappy. Telling the consumer it's normal; dumb.

 

[walterbays]

I always expected there would be gradual range loss even in my mild coastal climate, though I never guessed range loss could be as rapid nor as severe as in Arizona. But I also expected that the EV Project would build a recharging network in the project areas. Thus I thought that range loss would be just a matter of increasing operating cost. A new car might run for 2 cents a mile. After a few years, depending on your usage patterns, you might have to visit the public charging stations occasionally raising your overall operating cost to 3 cents a mile. A very old car might have to charge regularly raising cost to 5 cents or 10 cents a mile. And by the time an old EV clunker had to recharge so often that its operating cost was up to gasoline levels of 20 or 30 cents a mile, it would be time to replace the battery.

But instead L2 charging infrastructure is a small fraction of what was planned, and more importantly in many areas like mine quick charging is non-existent. So loss of range equates not to marginally increased operating costs but to complete failure of the car to meet owners' needs. So here's how I think Nissan should respond to the battery problem:

In Phoenix and Tuscon install enough of their own $10,000 Chademo chargers to bring the total up to double what was promised by the EV Project. Operate them on a break-even basis. Have dealers quantify owners' capacity loss versus expected loss for their time and mileage, and offer discounted quick charging rates for drivers affected by premature battery degradation. In a few years with EV's widespread and when public and private charging networks finally catch up to where they ought to be, Nissan would probably want to sell their chargers and get out of the charging business, as they'd no longer be needed.

It wouldn't be as nice as a brand new battery that was immune to heat degradation. But it would shift the problem from one of functional failure back to one of increased operating costs as the car ages.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

this statement although alluding to some sort of resolution for "some" AZ owners is still disappointing and lacking.

what is this committee's role in all this? are they going to determine what will be done for the AZ owners or are going to help with the policy on how to inform future EV owners of the effect of heat and range?

 

[shrink]

Chelsea,

Whether he wants it or not, I think Tony Williams should receive strong consideration for the advisory board. His efforts thus far exhibit a passion above and beyond that of most for this effort to succeed - the range chart, owning a LEAF and leasing another, the BC2BC trip, the range test. He is dedicated to providing more practical knowledge about the car and wants to make the LEAF and all EV's better.

That said, I'm very annoyed with Nissan. First, the high mileage claim is outright BS. Second, if they knew batteries would degrade faster in the desert, where was the hot climate disclosure to owners in southern AZ, parts of Texas, and CA? Third, if they have data about capacity on all cars, as Mr. Perry implied, via Carwings or battery inspections, why did they have to test the Casa Grande 7? Fourth, they must know about all the cases reported on the wiki, as well as those not reported on the wiki - since again, they said they have that information. Will Nissan be doing anything for those owners or just focus on the Casa Grande cars, one of whom I believe terminated the lease. Fifth, if this is normal, why did they replace one Phoenix area owners battery in 10/2011 after that car lost a capacity bar? Sixth, since they have the information, why don't they state publicly just how much battery capacity remains on the cars. Consumers deserve to know such basic information about their cars.

Personally, I'm glad I sold when I did. I'm also annoyed I leased another if this is how they treat customers, but I'm relieved I have the shortest possible lease. I'm done with Nissan, but not with EV's. Can't wait to see what's out there when my LEAF lease expires in 6/2014. Who knows how many capacity bars I'll have by then, but I'm sure it will be "normal."

 

[rickbecker]

Chelsea,

Whether he wants it or not, I think Tony Williams should receive strong consideration for the advisory board. His efforts thus far exhibit a passion above and beyond that of most for this effort to succeed - the range chart, owning a LEAF and leasing another, the BC2BC trip, the range test. He is dedicated to providing more practical knowledge about the car and wants to make the LEAF and all EV's better.

...

+1

 

[JRP3]

Regarding future LEAF's, if pack degradation cannot be improved with a better battery then the solution might be to install a larger pack with a larger buffer. Software would then allow a larger percentage of the pack to be used as capacity drops, keeping useable mileage the same, or at least less severe. Or switch to a more durable chemistry.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Chelsea,

Whether he wants it or not, I think Tony Williams should receive strong consideration for the advisory board. His efforts thus far exhibit a passion above and beyond that of most for this effort to succeed - the range chart, owning a LEAF and leasing another, the BC2BC trip, the range test. He is dedicated to providing more practical knowledge about the car and wants to make the LEAF and all EV's better.

...

+1

If asked, I will seriously consider it. I would need to know the goals, limits, etc, and be reasonably assured that this isn't a PR stunt.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Regarding future LEAF's, if pack degradation cannot be improved with a better battery then the solution might be to install a larger pack with a larger buffer. Software would then allow a larger percentage of the pack to be used as capacity drops, keeping useable mileage the same, or at least less severe. Or switch to a more durable chemistry.

You mean like Volt already does?!?!?!