Official Toyota Prius PHEV thread

[Train]

People take longer trips all the time, I do. People with kids do. It's here, then there, then camping, a soccer or softball tournament. These kinds of demands will put a crimp on a car that gets 100 miles in optimum conditions.

I'm sure the Tesla is great to be out there 175 miles at highway speeds. It's also $100,000.

A $10,000 Versa will go 300+ miles.

Again, when the price is reasonable for a reasonable range, people will consider them.

$33k LEAF isn't much more or less than what most people pay (which is apparently around $30k) so I would argue that it's not really all that expensive.

For 33K, you can buy a few cars that give you extremely good range and mpg, the Prius being one of them, the Jetta diesel, another. They can also get a lot of car for that amount, a BMW 328i, a Camaro SS w/426 hp, Ausi A3, etc. Early adopters have no problem with the Leaf. Mainstream America will.

If someone's going to pay $600 a month for a car, many are going to want more than 100 mile range and waiting 8 hours to charge. They're going to want more than what's basically a slightly bigger Versa. (You can say the Leaf is an independent design, fine. It still resembles a plump Versa).

Just saying that's it's going to be a tough sell when the early adopters have their cars.

 

[evnow]

For 33K, you can buy a few cars that give you extremely good range and mpg, the Prius being one of them....

Leaf is 25K - not 33K. Equivalent Prius is 28K.

I just looked at your earlier posts. Can you explain your interest in in this Leaf forum - looks like you are anti-Leaf. You just repeat myths about EVs and their usage.

 

[evnow]

Toyota hasn't released the actual PRODUCTION PHEV range, yet. The fleet of 160 DEMO verhicles in the US for the last year for testing have the 12 mile range, with 3 battery packs.

We can only go by what we know so far.

To repeat something I wrote (but probably didn;t submit) - the way tax credit is structured, there is a bias towards higher capacity batteries.

For eg. you could go from 4kwh to 8kwh - with no increase in post tax credit price. Assuming $500/kwh - the $2K increase in price will be offset be increased tax credit. That is why Toyota wasn't happy when GM got this tax credit structure pushed through during Bush presidency.

But, does Prius have enough space for more battery ? What will Toyota do ?

 

[mitch672]

Toyota hasn't released the actual PRODUCTION PHEV range, yet. The fleet of 160 DEMO verhicles in the US for the last year for testing have the 12 mile range, with 3 battery packs.

We can only go by what we know so far.

To repeat something I wrote (but probably didn;t submit) - the way tax credit is structured, there is a bias towards higher capacity batteries.

For eg. you could go from 4kwh to 8kwh - with no increase in post tax credit price. Assuming $500/kwh - the $2K increase in price will be offset be increased tax credit. That is why Toyota wasn't happy when GM got this tax credit structure pushed through during Bush presidency.

But, does Prius have enough space for more battery ? What will Toyota do ?

See this post on PriusChat, look at what "pEEf" has done, with making his own Lion batery pack with A123 cells, making his own "BMS ECU" replacement, and it fits in the Prius trunk. He replaced the factory pack with a larger Lithium pack and manages the SOC (State Of Charge) of the pack, to allow EV usage, and when its exhausted, he manages the SOC in a narrow range for standard hyrbid usage. If an engineer can take a Gen 2 Prius and do all of that on his own, I have to believe Toyotas engineers can do the same, or at least hire pEEf to assist them He's getting 25-30 miles of EV range, from his homebrew PHEV conversion.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-technical-discussion/86836-update-technical-details-my-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-project.html

 

[Jimmydreams]

For 33K, you can buy a few cars that give you extremely good range and mpg, the Prius being one of them, the Jetta diesel, another. They can also get a lot of car for that amount, a BMW 328i, a Camaro SS w/426 hp, Ausi A3, etc. Early adopters have no problem with the Leaf. Mainstream America will.

I am trading in a BMW to get the Leaf. The Leaf isn't for everyone, but it IS an option for many more people than most realize.

Just saying that's it's going to be a tough sell when the early adopters have their cars.

And when gas hits $5/gallon, the 'tough sell' will turn into a 'tough to get' vehicle. I, for one, remember the high gas prices of a year ago....do you remember how hard it was to sell an SUV when gas was $4/gallon? The early adopters are mostly the ones who 'remember'. The rest of the country will be forced to remember when gas continues to rise.

High gas prices will force America to face what it wants vs needs in a vehicle. All the advertising in the world won't make that 426hp Camaro SS look attractive when people realize it'll cost $50 just to drive around the block . Cool and fast is just that....until it becomes cost prohibitive.

 

[Train]

Leaf is 25K - not 33K. Equivalent Prius is 28K.

I just looked at your earlier posts. Can you explain your interest in in this Leaf forum - looks like you are anti-Leaf. You just repeat myths about EVs and their usage.

Anti-Leaf? You seem rather sensitive. My interest is like everyone elses, to discuss the Nissan Leaf. What myths do you speak of?

Not everyone will get the entire $7500 tax credit so the car will most certainly not be 25K for everyone. And adding in the cost of an EVSE up to $2000 and the Leaf is the same as the Prius or more.

 

[evnow]

He's getting 25-30 miles of EV range, from his homebrew PHEV conversion.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-technical-discussion/86836-update-technical-details-my-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-project.html

He is using 6.5kwh (80% would be some 5kwh) and gets "25 miles on the highway to 40 miles in the city" ? That would be an incredible 8miles/kwh in the city and 5miles/kwh on the highway.

It's 6.5kwh, and has 72 blocks each containing 12 A123 26650's. Each block has it's own tiny management module with a microcontroller that monitors block temperature, voltage, and has a selectable shunt to allow balancing during charge.
....
On this new pack, I can run anywhere from 25 miles on the highway to 40 miles in the city in all electric mode using zero fuel.

Even 80% DOD will not allow Toyota give a long warranty needed in carb states.

 

[evnow]

Anti-Leaf? You seem rather sensitive. My interest is like everyone elses, to discuss the Nissan Leaf. What myths do you speak of?

Being a moderator makes you sensitive to trollish posters ...

Your interest is not like everyone else. For eg., do you even have a reservation ?

ALmost everything you write is EV myth that mainstream media keeps repeating and we have dealt with in great detail in many threads. I suggest you do more reading ...

 

[Train]

And when gas hits $5/gallon, the 'tough sell' will turn into a 'tough to get' vehicle. I, for one, remember the high gas prices of a year ago....do you remember how hard it was to sell an SUV when gas was $4/gallon? The early adopters are mostly the ones who 'remember'. The rest of the country will be forced to remember when gas continues to rise.

Do I remember the high prices of gas a year ago? I used to wait in line for an hour for a maximum 8 gallon fillup during the late 70's and early 80's. Gas stations would close by noon and there would no gasoline till the next morning or a couple days later. Many states had odd/even days to buy gas. Lines would snake for a quarter mile down the road with people waiting for gas.

The price of gas doubled during the 70's in a very short time. So I'm well aware of the price fluctuations of fuel. The situations back then were far more difficult to deal with than just an increase in the price of gasoline.

As far as the other examples, my point was that for Leaf's MSRP, even with tax credits and higher fuel prices may be a tough sell to the general public.

The Leaf is an extraordinary technical achievement. Once the range of the Leaf and similar vehicles are increased dramatically, the general motoring public will take a closer look. At this point, the Prius may make more sense to many drivers but five years from now, this could change.

 

[Train]

Being a moderator makes you sensitive to trollish posters ...

Your interest is not like everyone else. For eg., do you even have a reservation ?

ALmost everything you write is EV myth that mainstream media keeps repeating and we have dealt with in great detail in many threads. I suggest you do more reading ...

I did not know that a reservation was needed to discuss the Leaf.

Again, what did I write that you consider myths?

 

[darelldd]

Until they solve this issue, and the long charge times, EV's will remain urban commuters. And expensive urban commuters at that.

And if EVs remain "urban commuters" forever, then we've solved a HUGE part of the problem with private automobiles. The vast majority of car trips are very short. I don't know how many millions of cars NEVER drive more than 100 miles in a day. Using a 500 mile car to drive intra and interurban distances is as logical as using a sledge hammer to drive a tac. Yes, I get the idea of "but if you only have one car." But again... let's get the low-hanging fruit now - put EVs to use where they shine and where they do the most good: Commuting. And let's NOT look at that as some sort of EV detraction when it is such a huge benefit.

Expensive? Even when you account for all the expenses of gasoline instead of just the paltry bit you pay at the pump?

 

[mitch672]

He's getting 25-30 miles of EV range, from his homebrew PHEV conversion.

http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-technical-discussion/86836-update-technical-details-my-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-project.html

He is using 6.5kwh (80% would be some 5kwh) and gets "25 miles on the highway to 40 miles in the city" ? That would be an incredible 8miles/kwh in the city and 5miles/kwh on the highway.

It's 6.5kwh, and has 72 blocks each containing 12 A123 26650's. Each block has it's own tiny management module with a microcontroller that monitors block temperature, voltage, and has a selectable shunt to allow balancing during charge.
....
On this new pack, I can run anywhere from 25 miles on the highway to 40 miles in the city in all electric mode using zero fuel.

Even 80% DOD will not allow Toyota give a long warranty needed in carb states.

He's using more than %80 of the pack, he writes on 1 trip he came home and his SOC was @ %12

I'm not saying Toyota will do exactly what pEEf has done, its just possible to get more than 12 miles of EV range, and fit the pack in the trunk, especially if you elliminate the factory pack and have that as part of the main pack. I don't see why 8KW of Lithium can't fit in a standard Prius. As for his KW/mile, maybe he has a very light foot, and is/was a hypermiler, all I can tell you is, the Prius uses a similar amount of energy per mile to move as a Leaf, the Prius is actually a lighter car than the Leaf. PICC's kit is 12.5KW and has a 40-60 mile EV range, so perhaps he is getting 25-40 miles in the city.. .certainly not at 70mph, but at a more modest 55-60 who knows what he could get. my point is, it has been and is being done with existing Prius hardware, so I see no reason Toyota can't do the same on a factory PHEV. He's also working on a "blended" mode that favors EV, but uses the ICE when accelrating to highways speed, once at HW speed, it can go back to pure EV mode... of course there is a lot of wind resistance at high speed, so using some fuel is the better way to go on a PHEV and save your EV only range for lower speed to moderate speed driving.

 

[darelldd]

Even then, that's not really "worst case" since you could just sit in the car without moving with the heater blowing and eat up all your power without moving an inch - in which case no amount of energy storage will help you.

So we compare this to sitting in a gas car with the engine and heat on getting zero MPG? I think I missed the point?

 

[TomT]

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

 

[mitch672]

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

As opposed to sending that 5 billion to countries we buy oil from and want to kill us, and our way of life?

I'll take the $5 billion electrical infrastructure upgrade, Alex.

 

[darelldd]

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

That would be mighty interesting if it were at all relevant. Did the article mention the likelyhood (or maybe we should say timeframe) of this happening? It'll be a while before we have that many cars spread throughout the country much less just in LA.

What if one in five new homes being built in LA had a pool and AC units installed? How much do we have to spend on infrastructure to handle THAT?

When gas cars came out there were no gas stations. Gas refineries and stations sprouted up when needed and kept pace with the growing demand. Growing the electric infrastructure has happened the same way as a never-ending supply of new, power-hungry larger homes are built. My neighbors have two AC units (4 tons each), two full-size refrigerators, two full-size freezers a pool and a hot tub. My home (not including my solar off-set) uses 1/8 the electricity of my neighbor... and that DOES include my EV being charged and driven 11,000 miles a year. Add in my solar offset, and I basically use nothing of course.

But anyway... yeah, infrastructure is expensive. How much does liquid fuel infrastructure cost us as 100% of the cars use liquid fuel now?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

See this post on PriusChat, look at what "pEEf" has done...

...http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-ii-prius-technical-discussion/86836-update-technical-details-my-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-project.html

i have followed him as well and i think he has something, but Toyota is concerned more with longevity, reliability and cost. i have serious doubts that his project will stand the test of time.

 

[darelldd]

An interesting sidebar in today's Daily News: LADWP estimates that if 1 in 5 vehicle owners in L.A. were to purchase an EV, they would need to spend $5 billion to update their infrastructure to handle it...

As opposed to sending that 5 billion to countries we buy oil from and want to kill us, and our way of life?

I'll take the $5 billion electrical infrastructure upgrade, Alex.

Great point. And I'll add that we send almost $2 billion outside of our economy for oil EVERY DAMN DAY. It is our biggest bit of trade deficit. Yeah, I'll choose "keep money and jobs in the US" as well, Alex!

 

[evnow]

I don't see why 8KW of Lithium can't fit in a standard Prius.

You mean 8kwh ?

I hope it does. I'm all for higher range. When I asked the question (don't remember where) why Toyota isn't putting a larger pack - the answer was space.

 

[evnow]

Again, what did I write that you consider myths?

Talking about need for long drives - without acknowledging that 60% of Americans have multiple cars, to start with.