Official Tesla Model S thread

[Boomer23]

So RegGuheert, which prize are you going to opt for, the expired Wendy's Baconator coupon or 20% of some forum member's net worth?

 

[surfingslovak]

So RegGuheert, which prize are you going to opt for, the expired Wendy's Baconator coupon or 20% of some forum member's net worth?

I think the Baconator coupon could be a better deal ;-)

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tesla Model S UMC disassembled. It's a bit difficult to disassemble because they used two plastic exterior shells and filled it with a black plastic material. There's really no air in there (or a place for water).

The aluminum top piece (with TESLA on it) is just glued on, and pops off easily, but probably not without bending. The six holes you see in the black exterior shell directly under the aluminum bit are what I drilled "looking for screws". Of course, they don't use any!

Those holes were where they injected the black plastic that you see all around all the wires. Even the circuit card for the J1772 proximity switch and the remote control for the charge port door is "glued in" with this black plastic.

Wire colors:

1) Red - Neutral or L2
2) Black - Hot L1
3) Green with Yellow strip - apparently how the Chinese make a green ground/earth wire
4) Purple - pilot signal
5) Blue - 3.3 volts to power remote control transmitter from UMC "box"
6) Green - probably ground for the remote control transmitter (this does not leave the UMC plug handle)
7) Orange - probably an antenna for the remote control transmitter? (this does not leave the UMC plug handle)

S1 is the switch for the J1772 proximity circuit. R1 is the 150 ohm resistor that signals the proximity pin is connected to the car. When the S1 switch is pressed (closed), the 330 ohm resistor R2 is added in series to R1, creating 480 ohms to ground (150 + 330) which signals to disconnect. Yep, that simple.

S2 is the switch for the transmitter that opens the Model S charge port. It is powered from the UMC with 3.3 volts from the blue wire.

Left to right, proximity pin, ground pin, pilot pin

Aren't these beautiful? They feel SOLID! They don't have any anti-rotating devices. Industry standard 4 indent crimp. No seals around these pins; they just sit in the plastic holder.

The other pins except the two power pins do have seals around them. Those parallel conductors in each power pin are about 12 gauge (sorry, I don't know the metric equivalent)

See the lining in the socket of the lower power pin? I don't have a very good picture of the center coaxial pin in the socket. It's made out of a different material than the socket, which is likely a copper alloy.

 

[surfingslovak]

See the lining in the socket of the lower power pin? I don't have a very good picture of the center coaxial pin in the socket. It's made out of a different material than the socket, which is likely a copper alloy.

Super cool! Thanks for posting. Perhaps REMA should have sent a team to help you study this very impressive plug design. I always wondered if Tesla coated the pins with silver. To me, that would be about the only material that made sense for this type of application.

 

[TonyWilliams]

See the lining in the socket of the lower power pin? I don't have a very good picture of the center coaxial pin in the socket. It's made out of a different material than the socket, which is likely a copper alloy.

Super cool! Thanks for posting. Perhaps REMA should have sent a team to help you study this very impressive plug design. I always wondered if Tesla coated the pins with silver. To me, that would be about the only material that made sense for this type of application.

These are impressive; more impressive than I imagined, to be honest. It does make the SAE J1772 plug look like a ridiculous toy, and clowns like REMA nothing more than sponges of tax payer money.

 

[donald]

I saw a Model S yesterday, and immediately started asking the tech guy questions about the plug design. How the heck does that carry 280A, which is what he was saying it was capable of?

Parallel 12AWG (~3.5mm^2) surely are only rated to 60A (30A each), continuous (AFAIK)?

And silver, or unobtanium/whatever, with a contact resistance of a couple of mOhm (which would be remarkably low for any connector system after a few hundred insertions) would still result in I^2R heating of 150 W!

:shock:

I looked at the connector, and asked the guy, dead-pan, if it was water a water cooled connector system, or a con trick? He didn't seem to be worried about the claim.

Thanks for the tear-down. Nice work.

3) Green with Yellow strip - apparently how the Chinese make a green ground/earth wire

IEC 60446

 

[TonyWilliams]

I saw a Model S yesterday, and immediately started asking the tech guy questions about the plug design. How the heck does that carry 280A, which is what he was saying it was capable of?

Since the plug is rated for 120kW in the Supercharger, that means 400 volt DC pack voltage * 300 amps.

Parallel 12AWG (~3.5mm^2) surely are only rated to 60A (30A each), continuous (AFAIK)?

This is from the portable UMC, which only carries AC power at 40 amps (250 volts * 40 = 10kW). The conductors are indeed much bigger for 300 amps, and I would imagine that the pins outer shell would be thicker.

And silver, or unobtanium/whatever, with a contact resistance of a couple of mOhm (which would be remarkably low for any connector system after a few hundred insertions) would still result in I^2R heating of 150 W!

I don't think anybody has complained of a hot plug on a Tesla.

 

[DaveEV]

I don't think anybody has complained of a hot plug on a Tesla.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/15268-High-Power-Wall-Charger-Tesla-recommends-temporarily-cutting-amps/page8?p=326644#post326644" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My HPWC has never blown a fuse or anything, but before the update limited it to 60A, if I went to unplug it while it was still charging or just completed charging, I would burn my hand.

I'm impressed that Tesla is able to push 225A through the plug, let alone the 300A they are planning on when they bump the power up to 120 kW from 90 kW.

225A 90C rated wire requires 3/0 copper - this is 10.4 mm in diameter.
300A 90C rated wire requires 300 Kcil copper - 13.9 mm in diameter.

Imagine you have two of those sitting side-by-side - not to mention the ground. That's a fat cable!

 

[donald]

Imagine you have two of those sitting side-by-side - not to mention the ground. That's a fat cable!

This is exactly what I said to the tech guy answering questions about the car, seeing as the lead from the plug was of much the same thickness you'd get for a L2 6.6kW charger (and may well have been a bundle of 12 AWG lines).

He just shrugged and repeated '280A', as if I should not even be thinking to argue that Tesla was so superior it was able to ignore the laws of physics.

It's a car! And if they are really getting 85kWh all into the floorpan alone then it is brilliant. But after having someone tell me that plug and cable can take 280A then I have to hesitate on the other details I get to hear about.

The interior trim was nice, but felt to me more like the interior a custom shop would put together. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but I was expecting to see something that looked a little more like a production standard of fit and continuity in its design and finish.

The version I saw had material on the dashboard that I was told was 'a wood finish'. It looked more like a piece of old drift wood, with a rough appearance!! Very strange choice of material - I guess Elon likes it ...

 

[DaveEV]

Imagine you have two of those sitting side-by-side - not to mention the ground. That's a fat cable!

This is exactly what I said to the tech guy answering questions about the car, seeing as the lead from the plug was of much the same thickness you'd get for a L2 6.6kW charger (and may well have been a bundle of 12 AWG lines).

He just shrugged and repeated '280A', as if I should not even be thinking to argue that Tesla was so superior it was able to ignore the laws of physics.

I wouldn't be surprised if they used two smaller wires per conductor in the supercharger cable the same as they do with their UMC to help keep things flexible. 280A seems low for 120 kW - the Tesla pack maxes out around 410V IIRC, so 280A would only be 115 kW max.

The version I saw had material on the dashboard that I was told was 'a wood finish'. It looked more like a piece of old drift wood, with a rough appearance!! Very strange choice of material - I guess Elon likes it

All a matter of opinon - there's 4 different dash material options - piano black, obeche wood, lacewood and carbon fiber - the obeche wood is available in both gloss and matte finishes.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... 280A seems low for 120 kW - the Tesla pack maxes out around 410V IIRC, so 280A would only be 115 kW max.

They might be pulling the 'ole Tesla "not quite the obvious truth", like the $500 car payment, the 300 mile range, and the 10kW onboard charger.

I suspect that because there are 12 of the "10kW" chargers in a Supercharger, that the power draw from the grid is 120kW. Note: each charger will be drawing 277 volts and 36 amps on a standard 480 volt commercial three phase circuit in the USA.

 

[smkettner]

Like the 20kW home charging... 250v x 80a = 20kW but where do you get 250 volts?
I think the Elon marketing team just likes to talk in round numbers.

 

[palmermd]

I'm also not certain whether the 120kW supercharger will really do anything for the car. Each supercharger feeds two plugs. The supercharger splits the power between the two cars if there are two connected. As the full vehicle tapers, the less full one is allowed to pull more, but if they both want full power it will be split at 45kW each. I believe that the 120kW supercharger just allows for 60kW to be sent to each car thus making the station faster at filling multiple cars, but the cars don't really draw any more since the speed is governed by the cars BMS. It could be that the cars would allow more than 90kW and it could benefit with the 120kW capacity, but I've not seen any posting directly stating this.

This might explain why the cable is rated at 90kW max while the station is rated at 120kW.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Like the 20kW home charging... 250v x 80a = 20kW but where do you get 250 volts?
I think the Elon marketing team just likes to talk in round numbers.

240 volts plus 10 volt allowable tolerance.

 

[mitch672]

I'm also not certain whether the 120kW supercharger will really do anything for the car. Each supercharger feeds two plugs. The supercharger splits the power between the two cars if there are two connected. As the full vehicle tapers, the less full one is allowed to pull more, but if they both want full power it will be split at 45kW each. I believe that the 120kW supercharger just allows for 60kW to be sent to each car thus making the station faster at filling multiple cars, but the cars don't really draw any more since the speed is governed by the cars BMS. It could be that the cars would allow more than 90kW and it could benefit with the 120kW capacity, but I've not seen any posting directly stating this.

This might explain why the cable is rated at 90kW max while the station is rated at 120kW.

If your the only car at the paired SuperChargers, and you have the firmware 5.0 update in your Model S, you will now get the full 120KW, before it starts tapering. It's already been seen over on TMC.

 

[palmermd]

If your the only car at the paired SuperChargers, and you have the firmware 5.0 update in your Model S, you will now get the full 120KW, before it starts tapering. It's already been seen over on TMC.

Thanks. Good to know. By the way, if the pack is nearly fully discharged, how long will it stay at 120kW?

 

[TonyWilliams]

If your the only car at the paired SuperChargers, and you have the firmware 5.0 update in your Model S, you will now get the full 120KW, before it starts tapering. It's already been seen over on TMC.

Thanks. Good to know. By the way, if the pack is nearly fully discharged, how long will it stay at 120kW?

While we will obviously get the definitive answer soon, I suspect it starts tapering somewhere above 50% SOC, like the LEAF.

Two major differences:

1) LEAF battery has no cooling, Tesla has robust active cooling
2) LEAF is charging at "2C" (48kW on a 24kWh battery) while Tesla is still limping at 120kW at 1.4C

I expect 100kW+ batteries soon and 200kW rates.

 

[N952JL]

Like the 20kW home charging... 250v x 80a = 20kW but where do you get 250 volts?
I think the Elon marketing team just likes to talk in round numbers.

I think it like the computer field. 1K is really 1024. 1 meg is not 1000K but really 1024K then the marketing people start in and 5 meg becomes 5 and a quarter meg at 5,242,880 bytes.

 

[tbleakne]

So if your Model S is off, but plugged in to charge the TMS doesn't run to keep the battery at optimal temperature? That would be a surprise to me.

A surprise to me too.
It's off and plugged in and sitting there after being charged to 80%. At times when I enter the garage, I hear what sounds like A/C running. I don't think that's just computers and I don't understand Franck's comment.
I consider the losses from computers etc. the real vampire loss. I don't consider the loss from the BMS activating to cool or warm the pack "vampire". Also, I expect the pack energy lost due to cooling to be very small. But, we'll see when the FW update arrives.

A forum member who lives in the desert has told me he has never seen his Model-S activate battery cooling while unplugged, and he has only seen it activate battery cooling while plugged-in twice. His location regularly gets over 100 F in the summer.

This is a huge improvement in battery chemistry over the Roadster experience, which would aggressively cool the battery both plugged-in and unplugged. Further improvements in high-temperature performance would be great, as long as they don't come at the expense of battery energy density. Even with further high-temperature improvements, I would still want an active TMS for cooling during high-temperature driving and Supercharging. I believe the energy cost of cooing the battery in addition to the motor and inverter is not excessive.

 

[mitch672]

If your the only car at the paired SuperChargers, and you have the firmware 5.0 update in your Model S, you will now get the full 120KW, before it starts tapering. It's already been seen over on TMC.

Thanks. Good to know. By the way, if the pack is nearly fully discharged, how long will it stay at 120kW?

Unknown by me, I've never used a SuperCharger yet, also I'm still on the 4.5 firmware.
I believe it starts tapering the charge at about 3/4 full, the last %20 of the charge takes as long as the first %80. Eventually there will SuperChargers closer to me (Providence RI and one on the Mass Pike [I90] due soon)