Official Ford Focus Electric Thread

[DaveinOlyWA]

And it is also cheaper and with shorter E range than the Volt.

Will GM, Ford, or Toyota ever put fast charge ports on any of their PHEVs?

If they do, I think the majority of those PHEV drivers will start using them, and figure out how much superior an alternative it would be to buy a BEV, instead of another PHEV.

Ed; both the Pip and the C-Max are marketed for emotion. they have token plugs at best. Only the Volt has a usable EV range and I mean usable in that its easy to drive electric as much as most people want to or need to. Neither Toyota or Ford makes a hybrid that qualifies.

Now, why they do this? the value of emotion in purchasing vehicles has always been there and sales associates have been playing that up for years. that is the reason why most states allow a 3 day return. its because sales associates are trained to play that emotion but EVs have increased the role of emotion in the purchase decision

add to that; the army of enablers, namely the State of CA. next time you are stuck behind a slow moving PiP in the HOV lane, think about this

 

[GRA]

And it is also cheaper and with shorter E range than the Volt.

Will GM, Ford, or Toyota ever put fast charge ports on any of their PHEVs?

If they do, I think the majority of those PHEV drivers will start using them, and figure out how much superior an alternative it would be to buy a BEV, instead of another PHEV.

Ed; both the Pip and the C-Max are marketed for emotion. they have token plugs at best. Only the Volt has a usable EV range and I mean usable in that its easy to drive electric as much as most people want to or need to. Neither Toyota or Ford makes a hybrid that qualifies.

Now, why they do this? the value of emotion in purchasing vehicles has always been there and sales associates have been playing that up for years. that is the reason why most states allow a 3 day return. its because sales associates are trained to play that emotion but EVs have increased the role of emotion in the purchase decision

add to that; the army of enablers, namely the State of CA. next time you are stuck behind a slow moving PiP in the HOV lane, think about this

I see things differently. I've said that I believe the only way mainstream consumers will accept BEVs is via PHEVs first, because the latter get them used to plugging in without requiring it, and with no range anxiety. Assuming I'm correct (and Ford/GM/Toyota etc. seem to agree), then it's necessary to provide a range of price points. The Volt is for people who are truly committed to replacing as much gas as possible, but it's too expensive for anyone who doesn't qualify for most/all of the full federal rebate, especially when compared with the ICE/HEV competition. The PiP is for those for whom low MSRP is all, and the C-Max Energi, Fusion Energi, Accord etc. are for those who are willing to pay a bit more for extra range and features and/or have short enough commutes that they can do it on electric (especially if they can plug in at work), but equal or greater utility than the Volt provides at much lower MSRP.

A 15-20 mile AER provides enough range for most stop and go and urban driving, while using the ICE for higher speed freeway driving which gets better mileage and produces less GHGs and other pollution. As battery prices come down the AER can be increased without raising the MSRP, or the MSRP can drop to lower the premium over a comparable ICE/HEV. The point is to get as many individuals transitioning from ICEs to PEVs as possible, not to get a much smaller number of individuals using the most efficient car, which is unaffordable for most people. Much greater numbers will trump individual advantages for a long time to come.

 

[ztanos]

And it is also cheaper and with shorter E range than the Volt.

Will GM, Ford, or Toyota ever put fast charge ports on any of their PHEVs?

If they do, I think the majority of those PHEV drivers will start using them, and figure out how much superior an alternative it would be to buy a BEV, instead of another PHEV.

Ed; both the Pip and the C-Max are marketed for emotion. they have token plugs at best. Only the Volt has a usable EV range and I mean usable in that its easy to drive electric as much as most people want to or need to. Neither Toyota or Ford makes a hybrid that qualifies.

Now, why they do this? the value of emotion in purchasing vehicles has always been there and sales associates have been playing that up for years. that is the reason why most states allow a 3 day return. its because sales associates are trained to play that emotion but EVs have increased the role of emotion in the purchase decision

add to that; the army of enablers, namely the State of CA. next time you are stuck behind a slow moving PiP in the HOV lane, think about this

I see things differently. I've said that I believe the only way mainstream consumers will accept BEVs is via PHEVs first, because the latter get them used to plugging in without requiring it, and with no range anxiety. Assuming I'm correct (and Ford/GM/Toyota etc. seem to agree), then it's necessary to provide a range of price points. The Volt is for people who are truly committed to replacing as much gas as possible, but it's too expensive for anyone who doesn't qualify for most/all of the full federal rebate, especially when compared with the ICE/HEV competition. The PiP is for those for whom low MSRP is all, and the C-Max Energi, Fusion Energi, Accord etc. are for those who are willing to pay a bit more for extra range and features and/or have short enough commutes that they can do it on electric (especially if they can plug in at work), but equal or greater utility than the Volt provides at much lower MSRP.

A 15-20 mile AER provides enough range for most stop and go and urban driving, while using the ICE for higher speed freeway driving which gets better mileage and produces less GHGs and other pollution. As battery prices come down the AER can be increased without raising the MSRP, or the MSRP can drop to lower the premium over a comparable ICE/HEV. The point is to get as many individuals transitioning from ICEs to PEVs as possible, not to get a much smaller number of individuals using the most efficient car, which is unaffordable for most people. Much greater numbers will trump individual advantages for a long time to come.

Aren't the two almost the same price?

 

[GRA]

Aren't the two almost the same price?

Which two? And with or without government incentives?

 

[surfingslovak]

Sunnyvale Ford is offering a 39-month lease at $249 + tax with zero down on a 2012 FFE. The EV game just got a lot more interesting.



Click to open

 

[redLEAF]

Sunnyvale Ford is offering a 39-month lease at $249 + tax with zero down on a 2012 FFE. The EV game just got a lot more interesting.



Click to open

A 'factory' rebate of $12K !!! I can se them taking the $7.5K fed tax credit and what the $2.5K CA one as well as another $2K off is that from Ford or the dealer?? either way it's a cheap lease if indeed no out of pocket for the customer.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

10,500 mile lease would not even come close to working for me

 

[edatoakrun]

Poor Ford. It must be averaging a four-figure loss on each one of these they move off the lot.

A direct competitor to the LEAF, but mostly available for sale (?) in markets that are beginning to get CHAdeMO stations.

Not available in many regions with no DC charging in sight (like mine) where the (less-slow) 6.6 kWh L2 could be a real selling point.

Sunnyvale Ford is offering a 39-month lease at $249 + tax with zero down on a 2012 FFE. The EV game just got a lot more interesting.



Click to open

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

doubtful. i think the automotive industry in general has taken advantage of outrageously high DIY based battery prices to justify very high sticker prices. it seems more than a bit unusual that everyone is leasing these vehicles at such attractive rates.

for GM and Nissan, its easy to understand since they have significant resources devoted to high volume manufacturing, so what is Ford's excuse?

why are they rushing a VERY limited production run out the door? or is it that the $40,000 sticker price was greatly inflated (as if we couldnt tell) and this ploy is a thinly disquised (since it does not take much to sway most consumers) attempt at building false brand loyalty?

or maybe the thought of marketing a 100% EV is so distasteful to Ford that they just want to get it over with ASAP

 

[GRA]

doubtful. i think the automotive industry in general has taken advantage of outrageously high DIY based battery prices to justify very high sticker prices. it seems more than a bit unusual that everyone is leasing these vehicles at such attractive rates.

for GM and Nissan, its easy to understand since they have significant resources devoted to high volume manufacturing, so what is Ford's excuse?

why are they rushing a VERY limited production run out the door? or is it that the $40,000 sticker price was greatly inflated (as if we couldnt tell) and this ploy is a thinly disquised (since it does not take much to sway most consumers) attempt at building false brand loyalty?

or maybe the thought of marketing a 100% EV is so distasteful to Ford that they just want to get it over with ASAP

What seems more likely to me is that they need to meet their CAFE quota, so move them they must. And with the Leaf now getting equal or greater incentives from Nissan, the Focus has to compete. Ford has more room, because they've said all along that the Focus price would allow them to make a profit, while Nissan has made no such claim re the Leaf's MSRP - ISTR them saying they wouldn't for some time (just as GM said they didn't expect to make a profit on the 1st-gen Volt).

As to a greatly inflated price, every BEV for sale now has an MSRP ~ twice what a comparable ICE costs, so I don't see any 'great inflation' on the Focus.

I'm personally very interested to see a large sample of Focus EVs sold in the Phoenix area ASAP; depending on how long the class action suit drags on, we may well have some rather interesting comparative stats by then (although the Volt is already providing some, but undoubtedly Nissan will claim that since it's a PHEV it doesn't count).

 

[HairyCairy]

Saw my first Focus EV in the wild today on I90. :mrgreen:
I would not have recognized it if the driver had not been giving me a green thumb up.
I must say the Focus EV is a good looking car. That grill on the front bumper gives the whole car a great first impression, "Hey that looks different," and separates it's self from the Focus we are used to seeing.
Good job Ford!, now start pumping these things into the market so we can get some more EV drivers on the road. All you got to do is have really good advertising and a lease that works for the majority of the commuters out there.

 

[planet4ever]

Sunnyvale Ford is offering a 39-month lease at $249 + tax with zero down on a 2012 FFE. The EV game just got a lot more interesting.

A 'factory' rebate of $12K !!! I can see them taking the $7.5K fed tax credit and what the $2.5K CA one as well as another $2K off is that from Ford or the dealer?? either way it's a cheap lease if indeed no out of pocket for the customer.

I chatted with a salesman at the Morgan Hill Ford Store last night, and got the same story. He insisted the $12K was in addition to the CA rebate and the federal tax credit. I didn't press him much on details, because I'm not really interested right now in breaking my Nissan lease to switch to a Ford. Like redLEAF, I suspect the $7.5K tax credit is involved, in the same way it is for a LEAF lease. It seems clear that the salesman was confused, since you really can't get the $7.5K separately if you lease. If they want to call it a $12K manufacturer rebate I guess they can, since Ford is (presumably) giving the $7.5K credit as well as a true $4.5K rebate.

I didn't spend a lot of time in the car, but my initial reaction was that Ford has an advantage over Nissan on the dash/console user interface. There are more things you can do from the steering wheel, and less need to use the touch pad and buttons on the console. I found the front quite roomy, and easy to get in and out of. I'm not tall, and I am a bit wide, and my 74-year-old bones are getting creaky, so comfort matters to me. The LEAF and Focus both pass. The Volt fails. Based on a short drive, the Focus seems about as nimble and easy to control at low speeds as the LEAF. I expect that people who come from automatic transmissions (and not the Prius) will find the familiar PRNDL gearshift more natural. I didn't have a chance to play with accelerator vs. brake pedal regen in D vs. L.

I never thought I would say this, but right now the lack of CHAdeMo is a deal breaker for me.

Ray

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm personally very interested to see a large sample of Focus EVs sold in the Phoenix area ASAP; depending on how long the class action suit drags on, we may well have some rather interesting comparative stats by then (although the Volt is already providing some, but undoubtedly Nissan will claim that since it's a PHEV it doesn't count).

Tesla Roadster already has many summers in Tucson and Phoenix. They are doing well.

 

[GRA]

I'm personally very interested to see a large sample of Focus EVs sold in the Phoenix area ASAP; depending on how long the class action suit drags on, we may well have some rather interesting comparative stats by then (although the Volt is already providing some, but undoubtedly Nissan will claim that since it's a PHEV it doesn't count).

Tesla Roadster already has many summers in Tucson and Phoenix. They are doing well.

True, but that's a very different chemistry, confusing the issue. I believe the Focus EV is using LG Chem LMO cells?

 

[surfingslovak]

True, but that's a very different chemistry, confusing the issue. I believe the Focus EV is using LG Chem LMO cells?

Yes, that's true, and as we have learned even cells of the same or similar chemistry type (LMO or NMC) can have varying properties. That said, the Roadster sample is relevant, simply because there aren't that many lithium-ion EVs and long enough out there. We already know what to expect from NiMH batteries in automotive applications thanks to the first generation of EVs and the wide deployment of this technology in the Prius, but there simply isn't much field data available for lithium-ion. It's relatively new to the automotive world.

I looked extensively for any available real-world data last year, and the closest thing to the Leaf was the MINI-E, which allegedly used an NMC cell from Molicel. The battery pack had no thermal management to speak of, with the exception of a fan. Tom Moloughney put 70K miles on his MINI-E and reportedly saw less than 5% degradation after 2.5 years of ownership in Montclair, NJ.

Contrast that with the Leaf, where Steve Marsh is allegedly seeing twice that amount of range loss after 55K miles in a significantly cooler climate in Kent, WA, which should be more conducive to battery health. There is a former MINI-E driver in SoCal, and she feels that her Leaf is losing range much faster than her previous EV with the same usage pattern in the same climate. She lost a capacity bar after 13,000 miles and 16 months of ownership, which is apparently not what she expected based on her MINI-E experience.

It's difficult to compare batteries from different manufacturers, even if they use the same underlying chemistry. I honestly thought that the Leaf will do much better than what we saw this summer, and it looked like the sparse field data I found would support that. Unfortunately, this does not appear to be true. While it makes perfect sense to do comparative research, what we will see in other vehicles will likely not be transferable to the Leaf, especially when it comes to battery performance and longevity.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

TMS is an attraction that more potential EV owners will find relevant now and as soon as Ford includes a QC port, even frankenplug, even with no infrastructure, the car will suddenly be in the running, IMHO.

 

[surfingslovak]

TMS is an attraction that more potential EV owners will find relevant now and as soon as Ford includes a QC port, even frankenplug, even with no infrastructure, the car will suddenly be in the running, IMHO.

Agreed. We need more choices, the sooner, the better.

 

[GRA]

TMS is an attraction that more potential EV owners will find relevant now and as soon as Ford includes a QC port, even frankenplug, even with no infrastructure, the car will suddenly be in the running, IMHO.

Agreed. We need more choices, the sooner, the better. This should compel Nissan to clean up their act more than our complaining ever would.

I've been very surprised at the number of Leaf owners who got rid of their owned Leafs owing to concerns with the battery, and then turned around and leased another one. I'm definitely in favor of a 'voting with your feet' philosophy. Admittedly, the Leaf lease prices have been incredibly low compared to just a short time ago, but Ford is now competing with them. Are there any FFE owners/lessees who've switched from a Leaf?

Re the SAE plug, I swear that thing looks like something the Borg would cook up - One wonders if every time you plug in, a mechanical voice intones "Resistance is futile, or E over I".

 

[saintyohann]

Are there any FFE owners/lessees who've switched from a Leaf?

I'm definitely considering a FFE or a RAV 4 EV when and if Nissan buys back my super lemon.

 

[wiltingleaf]

TMS is an attraction that more potential EV owners will find relevant now and as soon as Ford includes a QC port, even frankenplug, even with no infrastructure, the car will suddenly be in the running, IMHO.

Agreed. We need more choices, the sooner, the better. This should compel Nissan to clean up their act more than our complaining ever would.

I've been very surprised at the number of Leaf owners who got rid of their owned Leafs owing to concerns with the battery, and then turned around and leased another one. I'm definitely in favor of a 'voting with your feet' philosophy. Admittedly, the Leaf lease prices have been incredibly low compared to just a short time ago, but Ford is now competing with them. Are there any FFE owners/lessees who've switched from a Leaf?

Re the SAE plug, I swear that thing looks like something the Borg would cook up - One wonders if every time you plug in, a mechanical voice intones "Resistance is futile, or E over I".

I put in an order for the FFE. Unfortunately, there are none available here in AZ. I'm hoping it will be here in a couple of months. I'll let you know what I think once it arrives. If I don't like it, I'm seriously considering a Tesla S. Just can't justify the price of the Tesla, but love it's look and design. I can't consider a lease as I put too many miles on my cars to do that. I had 23,100 miles on my leaf when it was repurchased by Nissan.