Official Ford C-MAX Energi PHEV thread

[GetOffYourGas]

I'm really having a hard time believing how Ford could have screwed up the Energi to get the EPA fuel economy rating so much lower than the Hybrid unless the Hybrid's numbers are inflated...

From reports I've read of real-world driving, the Hybrid's numbers are inflated. This implies to me that Ford "gamed" the EPA tests in order to maximize MPG rating, at the expense of the real world. Maybe something about the extra weight in the Energi made their game harder to play?

Automakers gaming the EPA tests to boost their numbers? I'm shocked, shocked!

I know, right?

Although it seems to be getting worse. I used to consistantly beat the EPA rating of cars, now I have a hard time matching it. And that's after they made the EPA test harder! Maybe this is the plan to get to the new 54.5MPG CAFE standards - just make the paper numbers higher, which makes the real ones lower. Maddening!

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I'm really having a hard time believing how Ford could have screwed up the Energi to get the EPA fuel economy rating so much lower than the Hybrid unless the Hybrid's numbers are inflated...

First thing that crossed my mind. I figured it had to be a mistake. But I guess we'll see!

I believe the quoted figure is how much MPG the C-Max Energi gets when driving with a depleted battery; i.e. gas only with no hybrid assist. This is the steady-state mileage when you drive past the plug-in's battery-only range, and also happens to approximate the mileage you get if you buy a plug-in and never actually bother to plug it in.

John K.

Yes, John. That's exactly what it is. drees was referring to the fact that the non-plug-in C-Max is rated at 47 combined, and the Energi is at 43. This seems to be a large penalty for what amounts to a couple hundred pounds of extra battery.

 

[jackncoke]

I believe the quoted figure is how much MPG the C-Max Energi gets when driving with a depleted battery; i.e. gas only with no hybrid assist. This is the steady-state mileage when you drive past the plug-in's battery-only range, and also happens to approximate the mileage you get if you buy a plug-in and never actually bother to plug it in.

John K.

Yes, John. That's exactly what it is. drees was referring to the fact that the non-plug-in C-Max is rated at 47 combined, and the Energi is at 43. This seems to be a large penalty for what amounts to a couple hundred pounds of extra battery.

If you're running a plug-in hybrid discharged, you get no mileage benefit from the battery pack, except incidental charge from regenerative braking. So the mileage is lower than a standard hybrid not just because of some extra weight but also because you're getting no opportunity to run on battery.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

So the mileage is lower than a standard hybrid not just because of some extra weight but also because you're getting no opportunity to run on battery.

This is flat-out wrong. The standard hybrid only gets charge in the battery through regen and capturing excess energy from the ICE. The plug-in gets the same exact boost. Running a plug-in discharged is exactly the same as running a non-plug-in. The difference is in the vehicle - the Energi is heavier, and probably has a few other design tweaks. It is a slightly different vehicle. But not different enough to expect a drop from 47MPG to 43MPG.

 

[Herm]

You can recapture a lot more regen energy, that has to account for something.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Yes, John. That's exactly what it is. drees was referring to the fact that the non-plug-in C-Max is rated at 47 combined, and the Energi is at 43. This seems to be a large penalty for what amounts to a couple hundred pounds of extra battery.

you are comparing a hybrid against an extended range plug in in CS mode. they should not be the same since the hybrid has the battery advantage and CS mode does not

 

[GRA]

From reports I've read of real-world driving, the Hybrid's numbers are inflated. This implies to me that Ford "gamed" the EPA tests in order to maximize MPG rating, at the expense of the real world. Maybe something about the extra weight in the Energi made their game harder to play?

Automakers gaming the EPA tests to boost their numbers? I'm shocked, shocked!

I know, right?

Although it seems to be getting worse. I used to consistantly beat the EPA rating of cars, now I have a hard time matching it. And that's after they made the EPA test harder! Maybe this is the plan to get to the new 54.5MPG CAFE standards - just make the paper numbers higher, which makes the real ones lower. Maddening!

I'm still able to exceed the original EPA hwy ratings on my 2003 Forester (rated 27, I typically get 28-31), which would now be rated 25 under the 2008 standard. Can't speak from experience on how newer cars do, but I see the current heavier but I believe less draggy Forester is also rated at 27 hwy.

 

[DrInnovation]

So the mileage is lower than a standard hybrid not just because of some extra weight but also because you're getting no opportunity to run on battery.

This is flat-out wrong. The standard hybrid only gets charge in the battery through regen and capturing excess energy from the ICE. The plug-in gets the same exact boost. Running a plug-in discharged is exactly the same as running a non-plug-in. The difference is in the vehicle - the Energi is heavier, and probably has a few other design tweaks. It is a slightly different vehicle. But not different enough to expect a drop from 47MPG to 43MPG.

If I were to hazard a guess I would say the difference is mostly gearing, not weight. The Energi is geared so EV can do 85mph. That means changing the split in the epicyclic gearing so the smaller motor won't have to spin too fast. That would put it at a less than ideal gearing for the 45-65mph range. The hybrid does not need 85mph EV so can use a different setup. Pure speculation on my part, but seems more rational than a few 100lb dropping 4mpg.

 

[redLEAF]

Well, I got to test drive what they have now (hybrid version) earlier today and came away fairly impressed. This dealer had 7 in stock, mostly SE's but drove a fully loaded white SEL with the pano roof, etc. Even with the sunroof tons of head room (but of course it doesn't open so perhaps that's why), 5 level heated seats, auto wipers, etc., etc. Car was very quiet, much more so than a Prius V I had driven back a few months. Driver's seat has very good cushioning and feels like it would be great on long trips. Very solid and HEAVY doors (they added a lot of insulation) that feel quite solid. Very easy to spin the front tires as this thing wants to get up and go. The Ford voice controls seem to be working fine (at least for basic commands) and even though you could see a fair amount of hard plastic, the car seemed very well built. Lot's of hidden storage areas, the one in the back 'bump' shelf I knew about but those under the floor areas behind the front seats (like Dodge Caravans) was a surprise. As I had mentioned earlier the C-Max is small on the outside (actually a few inches shorter than the Focus) but is actually quite roomy inside - the back hatch with the seats folded looked like it could handle most of the 'stuff' we carry home in all but the most extreme conditions (still struggle a bit if we can give up the minivan it would need to replace). Also have to question the actual MPG rating as it showed a 33.5 MPG average while I took the test drive ... others before me could have been lead foots. Lastly, I asked when the Energi version was coming and the sales rep was told January as others have mentioned but would call me if they came in sooner. Overall, I think Ford has a great car and as gas prices continue to go crazy this thing should sell pretty well ... With the Fed Tax Credit on the plug-in it would be crazy not to see if you could live with the loss of storage as well as longer range

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

nice write up Red and pay no mind to the MPG's. people come to look at the car, the salesman will "butterfly" the car which means pull it off the line and open up all the doors and hatches. this means a lot of sitting and idling. also the salesman will "line up the lot" arranging the cars so they look neat and all that stuff is a mileage sucker

 

[redLEAF]

nice write up Red and pay no mind to the MPG's. people come to look at the car, the salesman will "butterfly" the car which means pull it off the line and open up all the doors and hatches. this means a lot of sitting and idling. also the salesman will "line up the lot" arranging the cars so they look neat and all that stuff is a mileage sucker

thanks, on the MPG quite true ... plus it's a brand new car (didn't check the miles on it) so was not yet broken in. On my short trip I managed to raise the average to almost 35. as an aside, this dealer (Arlington Heights Ford) also had just one Ford Focus EV which I also could have taken out but passed as we don't need two fully electrics w/o a long trip car which this C-Max would replace. Was curious of the talk of the charge port opening by itself on the FFE and its not very robust but flips around and appears to 're-latch' OK. Our rep didn't know about the IL EPA and EVSE rebates and was genuinely pleased to hear about them -- a surprise look with some interest as I'm sure they would like to move some of these. Unfortunately (as I already checked) no IL EPA rebate for the C-Max Energi as its 'motor' isn't a generator like in the Volt (at least at this point, perhaps they'll reconsider once it comes out we'll see). It would be great as others have mentioned to see a few more plug-in vehicles with a bit more utility but the C-Max is a great start (once we see the Energi!). My last Ford was a '93 Ford Taurus SHO so would be interesting that my next one could be 20 years later with a '13 C-Max Energi.

 

[redLEAF]

Here is a quick photo of the main display (of course no phone configured as well as SD card for Navi wasn't inserted yet); would have taken a few more photos but was raining and overcast:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

also interested in Energi. based on current offerings and pricing the C-Max Energi is the only vehicle i would consider replacing my Prius with. it would be a bit of a challenge to charge two cars on one plug but as it stands now, the LEAF spends 2/3rds of its time not charging or already done charging so time wise its easy.

guessing the Energi would charge in under 2 hours on 240 volts

 

[redLEAF]

also interested in Energi. based on current offerings and pricing the C-Max Energi is the only vehicle i would consider replacing my Prius with. it would be a bit of a challenge to charge two cars on one plug but as it stands now, the LEAF spends 2/3rds of its time not charging or already done charging so time wise its easy.

guessing the Energi would charge in under 2 hours on 240 volts

I would agree on the amount of time for an L2 charge; as we have a fixed rate per kWh (6.6 cents) and my wife gets home mid afternoons (works at a high school) I figure the C-max could be fully charged before I came home with our LEAF; but in our case we could alternate days as my commute is 30-32 miles R/T and hers is only 7 miles. We 80% charge a few week days a week and 100% on the weekends (yesterday we started at 111 miles to empty on the GOM and ended up at 12 by the end of the day -- didn't check the miles driven but had to use the defrost with our rainy weather) --- definitely would like to get the additional usage out of our EVSE but after rebates this thing only cost us $625 with the install so we'll recoup the costs fairly quickly. If you haven't already I would take a test drive of the hybrid version and post some comments as well, if you drive a Prius now it will make for a great comparison.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

So the mileage is lower than a standard hybrid not just because of some extra weight but also because you're getting no opportunity to run on battery.

This is flat-out wrong. The standard hybrid only gets charge in the battery through regen and capturing excess energy from the ICE. The plug-in gets the same exact boost. Running a plug-in discharged is exactly the same as running a non-plug-in. The difference is in the vehicle - the Energi is heavier, and probably has a few other design tweaks. It is a slightly different vehicle. But not different enough to expect a drop from 47MPG to 43MPG.

If I were to hazard a guess I would say the difference is mostly gearing, not weight. The Energi is geared so EV can do 85mph. That means changing the split in the epicyclic gearing so the smaller motor won't have to spin too fast. That would put it at a less than ideal gearing for the 45-65mph range. The hybrid does not need 85mph EV so can use a different setup. Pure speculation on my part, but seems more rational than a few 100lb dropping 4mpg.

Thank you for sharing. Although speculation, this is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for - something that could explain the difference other than "you get no boost from the battery" - which is just wrong since I'm comparing Energi to Hybrid not charged Energi to discharged Energi.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

guessing the Energi would charge in under 2 hours on 240 volts

According to Ford, a fully depleted battery will charge in about 3 hours at 240 volts.

 

[redLEAF]

guessing the Energi would charge in under 2 hours on 240 volts

According to Ford, a fully depleted battery will charge in about 3 hours at 240 volts.

The latest on the Ford site actually states 7 hours @ 120V and 2.5 hours at 240V but this listing also left the EV range as 'TBD' so this could chang yet again before they start rolling off the assembly line for actual customers (and not just prototypes)

http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/specifications/view-all/

EDIT: the dealer I test drove the hybrid version has a plug-in Energi on order and it also states a 2.5 recharge time at 240V ... perhaps these will show up sooner around the country as this sticker clearly shows a VIN so has to be in the pipeline soon; I also found out that I should be able to get X level pricing (Ford Partner Program) for sure on the hybrid and perhaps on the plug-in although they didn't offer it on the FFE so may not on the plug-in as well:

http://www.inventory.ford.com/services/inventory/WindowSticker.pdf?vin=1FADP5CU3DL507588

 

[redLEAF]

Wow, you mean it gets 79 MPG !!! Not sure how a C-Max Energi could go 100 miles (combined electric/gas) on a single gallon of gas ... perhaps they mean, drive 21 miles on electric; recharge it, drive another 21 miles; recharge it; drive another 21 miles; recharge it and THEN finish up the final 37 miles using gas?? I really like the car but exaggerations are what got the LEAF in a bit of trouble:

http://ens-newswire.com/2012/10/17/new-fuel-sipping-ford-plug-in-hybrid-erases-range-anxiety/

"Never has a hybrid traveled so far on so little gas – the C-MAX Energi goes 100 miles on just one gallon."

I do suppose that over say a week where you're driving a daily 21 mile R/T commute and charging nightly get something much more than 100 MPGe but not on a single trip --- many Volt owners can go for weeks (or even months) without needing to use any gas but it's still a bit misleading to see statements like this.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Wow, you mean it gets 79 MPG !!! Not sure how a C-Max Energi could go 100 miles (combined electric/gas) on a single gallon of gas ... perhaps they mean, drive 21 miles on electric; recharge it, drive another 21 miles; recharge it; drive another 21 miles; recharge it and THEN finish up the final 37 miles using gas?? I really like the car but exaggerations are what got the LEAF in a bit of trouble:

http://ens-newswire.com/2012/10/17/new-fuel-sipping-ford-plug-in-hybrid-erases-range-anxiety/

"Never has a hybrid traveled so far on so little gas – the C-MAX Energi goes 100 miles on just one gallon."

I do suppose that over say a week where you're driving a daily 21 mile R/T commute and charging nightly get something much more than 100 MPGe but not on a single trip --- many Volt owners can go for weeks (or even months) without needing to use any gas but it's still a bit misleading to see statements like this.

you are really really REALLY deluding yourself if you think that car manufacturers are going to get a burst of empathy for the weak conscious of the general public any time soon.

 

[Herm]

Wow, you mean it gets 79 MPG !!! .

Dont be obtuse.. "The EPA certifies the C-MAX Energi for 108 miles per gallon equivalent in city driving and 92 MPGe on the highway, for a 100 MPGe combined rating."