NYTimes would do a Ford Focus

[thankyouOB]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/automobiles/autoreviews/the-battery-driven-car-just-got-a-lot-more-normal.html?_r=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

mikey likes it and the price comparison an intelligent EV consumer will make (including gas savings) to its sister ICE Focus shows it make CENTS. DOLLARS AND CENTS.

Too bad, the author totally flubbed that comparison, calling it 3:1.
My Leaf has an 8:1 ratio on cost per mile to my ICE.

does the ICE get 75 mpg?

 

[garsh]

I'd like to see the numbers you used to come up with the 8:1 cost comparison.

I ran my own personal numbers and got 5:1.

As for the article, the author states their source: the fueleconomy.gov website. If you drive your car without regard to efficiency, I can see 3:1 being quite likely.

 

[thankyouOB]

my ice got 22-24 mpg.
CA $4.30 gasoline = $4.30 to go 24 miles.
(leave aside that I produce all my power with PV solar and TOU metering, but compute my costs using the EV 2.5-cent per kWh discount on the base rate.)
I pay 8.3 cents or 8.7 per kWh for power - depending on the time of year with LADWP, as long as I charge at after 8 pm or on weekends.
over the past year of Leaf ownership that works out to 2 cents a mile or 48 cents to go 24 miles.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Depends on gas prices vs electric rates and what ICE car you deem to be comparable. I figure I'm about 5:1 assuming the Leaf would get 30mpg if it were burning gas @3.70 a gallon instead of electricity @ 11 cents/kWh. The ratio is 16:1 for a Hummer

 

[mwalsh]

Right on the mark about the 6.6kW charging. Have gone through both the "leave it at home" and the "patience tried" scenarios my own self. Even keeping in mind most people's charging habits, 3kW charging was still the wrong choice for the LEAF. No two ways about it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Piss Poor Math has become all too common even among EV supporters. Yesterday in my annual display of EVs at the Lacey Alternative Fuel Fair and Electric Car Rally i was browsing the booths on slack times and came across the Puget Sound Energy Booth where they stated they have driven Leafs 36,000 miles and had a net savings of $1500 over a 30 mpg Gas car or $300 over a Hybrid.

well, i asked them if they EVER drove the Leaf under 85 MPH because they would have to drive that fast to get #'s that poor. I also pointed out that i was saving between $49-52 per thousand miles of travel over my 48 MPG Prius. They did review my spreadsheet and take a few notes.

as far as the 3.3 verses 6.6 charging; we only complain because the rollout of public charging options would be non-existent if other companies not involved with the DOE had not stepped in. Ecotality was a HUGE mistake and its causing 2nd guessing from Leaf owners, but lets make sure we are pointing in the right direction.

if we were currently enjoying the 15,000 L2's and 400 DCFCs as was planned, the charging speeds would not even be a topic for discussion. can we blame Nissan for that? they have adjusted every single model year to something better and better and with knowing that, would i trade about 20-25,000 miles of EV cruising and a few grand to get those 2013 perks? no way, no how. it is simply not worth burning gas an additional two years.

the question; knowing back in April 20,2010 what you know now; would you have bought a 2011 Leaf?

my answer; without a doubt

 

[ENIAC]

Right on the mark about the 6.6kW charging. Have gone through both the "leave it at home" and the "patience tried" scenarios my own self. Even keeping in mind most people's charging habits, 3kW charging was still the wrong choice for the LEAF. No two ways about it.

And what if 6.6kW charging had resulted in an MSRP increase of $500 or so? The vast majority of drivers would never benefit from 6.6kW charging because they only charge at home and at night. Do they care is their LEAF is finished charging by 3:00am or 5:00am? No, as long as it's charged before they need to leave in the morning.

 

[mwalsh]

And what if 6.6kW charging had resulted in an MSRP increase of $500 or so?

If offered as a factory or dealer installed option, I would have opted for it in a heartbeat.

 

[TomT]

As unlikely as that is (Nissan has stated that the chargers cost about the same), I still would have bought it absolutely. It makes a huge difference in opportunity charging and flexibility of the vehicle.

And what if 6.6kW charging had resulted in an MSRP increase of $500 or so?

 

[Stoaty]

well, i asked them if they EVER drove the Leaf under 85 MPH because they would have to drive that fast to get #'s that poor. I also pointed out that i was saving between $49-52 per thousand miles of travel over my 48 MPG Prius.

I drive my Leaf very conservatively, my brother drives his gen 3 Prius very conservatively. Here is a comparison of fueling costs:

Leaf - (15 cents per kWh / 5.7 miles per kWh) / .83 efficiency of charging = 3.17 cents per mile *1.1 utility tax = 3.49 cents per mile

Prius - ($4.25 per gallon / 51.5 miles per gallon) = 8.25 cents per mile

Difference in cost per mile = 4.76 cents per mile

So this is a difference of $47.60 per thousand miles. It would have been even better, but I pay 15 cents per kWh to get green power from LA DWP instead of 12 cents per kWh for non-renewable power.

Conclusion: my calculation matches yours almost exactly.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

well, i asked them if they EVER drove the Leaf under 85 MPH because they would have to drive that fast to get #'s that poor. I also pointed out that i was saving between $49-52 per thousand miles of travel over my 48 MPG Prius.

I drive my Leaf very conservatively, my brother drives his gen 3 Prius very conservatively. Here is a comparison of fueling costs:

Leaf - (15 cents per kWh / 5.7 miles per kWh) / .83 efficiency of charging = 3.17 cents per mile *1.1 utility tax = 3.49 cents per mile

Prius - ($4.25 per gallon / 51.5 miles per gallon) = 8.25 cents per mile

Difference in cost per mile = 4.76 cents per mile

So this is a difference of $47.60 per thousand miles. It would have been even better, but I pay 15 cents per kWh to get green power from LA DWP instead of 12 cents per kWh for non-renewable power.

Conclusion: my calculation matches yours almost exactly.

i actually have a meter inline with the circuit that charges my Leaf so i have it down to the penny. my Green Power is a lot cheaper than yours (about 10.6 cents) but i have weather to deal with which lowers my performance somewhat this past winter, i simply used free charging a lot more to offset cost...but not in the way most people would think.

i have days off in middle of the week so had a tendency to pile up appointments on those days. unfortunately, times were not always the best so found myself frequently finishing an appointment downtown with another one an hour later just a mile away. no sense in spending 20 mins to drive home to sit 20 mins then drive back so i would go to public charging, plug in and turn on climate control and warm up the car and cruise the net on my phone. so in that regard, my costs are a bit misleading so i tracked my "savings" which is easy to do since i can log online and it tells me how much Kw's i got and i just use that against my LT wall to wheel average (about 84%) keeping in mind, higher Kw rate (16 public verses my 12 Kw for Phil Mod) means higher efficiency of 88-90% but in a month where i purposefully charged publicly as much as was reasonably possible, i only got less than $6 worth

but my average on the Prius was 47-48 MPG but gas is somewhat cheaper at $3.95-$4.02

now, posted this but bears repeating

April stats; Prius drove 1387 miles gas cost $121.53 averaged 46.3 MPG (i dont drive the car much and person who does has time management issues so frequently drives near 70 mph in order to make it to work on time, like today...)

Leaf drove 1322 miles cost $31.27. 14 public charging events totaled 31.28 Kwh. no charge.

so basically, i paid $90 to drive an extra 60 miles in my Prius. all i can say is

Thank God its a Prius!!

 

[thankyouOB]

i would have paid $500 for the faster charger option, but prolly used it infrequently. 1k--prolly not.

I would not have waited two years to get off gasoline and say enough to the oil corps and their client states and nations.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i would have paid $500 for the faster charger option, but prolly used it infrequently. 1k--prolly not.

I would not have waited two years to get off gasoline and say enough to the oil corps and their client states and nations.

there is only one time that i actually sat somewhere waiting while the car was charging to make it home and that was Feb 2011 when we did the Seattle Leaf Owners meetup and the BIGGEST reason was a lack of public charging because we did go somewhere to hang up, swap stories and eat. if there would have been a lowly slow pathetic 3.3 kw charging option there, then there would be zero times i sat around waiting for a charge to get home.

but as it was, the only charging stations i knew of in the area (unlike Olympia which has had public charging stations for MONTHS at that point) were the 2 Nissan dealerships i used.

but this is all really back to the discussion of the QC port. i paid extra for it despite me not really thinking i would use it except for the unusual circumstance so it was nice to have it so i see anyone's wanting to get a 6.6 kw charging option just in case.

 

[nosuchthing]

My ratio is also 3:1 on a cost comparison of my 26 mpg ICE vs Leaf. PG&E juice is expensive in SF Bay Area. Just like gas for that matter (the two are in cahoots in market pricing/fixing). Above amounts to savings of about 120 bucks a month. I was hoping for at least 5:1 ratio when I bought the Leaf.

Still, there are other advantages: Zero repair bills. No oil changes at about 100 bucks a year. No headaches. That's worth something too. I still can't believe Nissan had pulled it off. They deserve a Nobel price for pioneering and trailblazing.

 

[eHelmholtz]

And what if 6.6kW charging had resulted in an MSRP increase of $500 or so? The vast majority of drivers would never benefit from 6.6kW charging because they only charge at home and at night. Do they care is their LEAF is finished charging by 3:00am or 5:00am? No, as long as it's charged before they need to leave in the morning.

That would be brilliant - I'd pay a lot more than $500 for that upgrade (though it's not likely to be available)! Not only is it more convenient for charging during a trip but also, I drive a bit and sometimes have to leave home in the morning before the charging is done or charging runs into non-off peak prices.

 

[SanDust]

I think the focus is wrong. This quote is more important than whether the savings are 3:1 or 8:1: "The extra benefit of quieting the 107-kilowatt (143 horsepower) motor is a reduction of all road noise to ultraluxury levels, whether on city streets or while briskly accelerating to the maximum speed of 85 m.p.h."

The reviewer didn't think the Leaf was as quiet, but the Leaf is quiet, which is why all the Leaf vs. Versa comparisons don't wash. The Leaf is something of an econobox but it delivers a luxury level ride. The Infiniti EV, which should at least equal the interior of the Focus EV , will make the luxury quality ride more apparent. I just don't know whether the limited range will put a cap on how much people will spend. (The Model S should give us a feel for this). But overall you get a lot more from an EV than you'd think just looking at the exterior and interior.

 

[Leon]

I would pay for more battery modules. I would pay for the 6.6 charger. I don't even care about the price, I just want the option. I would not wait for the option.

When you figure the savings. Do you count the $7,500 fed tax credit? I also got a $6,000 state tax credit. What about the $760 it cost me to get the car shipped from CA to CO? 17,000 miles in and I would do it all over again. Ford is all talk. They keep comparing the MY13 Focus to the MY11 LEAF. Thank you Nissan for ignoring them. Get that battery factory open and build more. I'm ready to trade up.