Not being in initial 7 states ...

[charlie1300]

As a proud member of the "forgotten 36", I am disappointed to a degree at the roll out pace. However, I never expected to get a Leaf before mid-2011, even when I first made the reservation. And as I look at the 30 mph winds whip the 18" of snow into a whiteout, I am very content to wait until Nissan gets the cold weather package right.

Please, Please tell me who other than Nissan is going to be able to sell me a production EV (not a hybrid) by the first half of 2012. I don't see it. They are the only game in town if you want EV. I don't consider a Volt or a Prius as an alternative. They might be an option to replace my long distance ICE when it's up for replacement in 2013.

 

[mitch672]

I am comming to the conclusion that in cold weather climates, like Boston where I live in, EVs may just be inpractical... and a PHEV is probably the way to go, until the battery pack can hold substantialy more charge/mileage/time. We need heat out here, thats going to kill the range, we have long traffic jams, again, a range killer with heat/AC... It might just be best to settle for a PHEV for now, and live with a 15-30 mile EV range, and have the ICE backup. We are not in a fair weather area and don't have the EV infrastructure of the EVP states, and probably never will.

I'm happy to convert my PRIUS to a PHEV, that will be "good enough" for now, I don't believe the timing is right yet for a full EV in non ideal conditions - yet.

 

[LEAFfan]

I am comming to the conclusion that in cold weather climates, like Boston where I live in, EVs may just be inpractical... and a PHEV is probably the way to go, until the battery pack can hold substantialy more chare/mileage/time. We need heat out here, thats going to kill the range, we have long traffic jams, again, a range killer with heat/AC... It might just be best to settle for a PHEV for now, and live with a 15-30 mile EV range, and have the ICE backup. We are not in a fair weather area and don't have the EV infrastructure of the EVP states, and probably never will.

I'm happy to convert my PRIUS to a PHEV, that will be "good enough" for now, I don't believe the timing is right yet for a full EV in non ideal conditions - yet.

I would think with the 'cold weather package' (battery pack heater) that it would operate just like in mild weather.

 

[mitch672]

I am comming to the conclusion that in cold weather climates, like Boston where I live in, EVs may just be inpractical... and a PHEV is probably the way to go, until the battery pack can hold substantialy more chare/mileage/time. We need heat out here, thats going to kill the range, we have long traffic jams, again, a range killer with heat/AC... It might just be best to settle for a PHEV for now, and live with a 15-30 mile EV range, and have the ICE backup. We are not in a fair weather area and don't have the EV infrastructure of the EVP states, and probably never will.

I'm happy to convert my PRIUS to a PHEV, that will be "good enough" for now, I don't believe the timing is right yet for a full EV in non ideal conditions - yet.

I would think with the 'cold weather package' (battery pack heater) that it would operate just like in mild weather.

The "battery pack heater" uses battery power to generate the heat! except when connected to the J-1772 EVSE... the heat/AC in the vehicle uses battery power. You get stuck in one of our typical traffic jams or one of our famous 3-4 hour winter commutes, you're going to have to shutoff the heat, to have any chance of making it. What I am saying is, even though an EV could work here, drivers will have to make a lot of compromises, and many are not willing to - yet. $4,$5, or $6 gasoline, maybe more will, but larger packs would also help

 

[planet4ever]

in my humble opinion (IMHO), they wanted to gage interest in the entire country, even though they full well knew that deliverys of Leafs wouldn't happen until sometime in 2012 for people outside of the EV Project states.. They have not released the results, but I do wonder how many reservationists there are outside of the intial 7 EVP states.

I don't know why it bugs me so much, Mitch, but I get irritated every time you say "EV Project states". California is an initial launch state, but only a tiny fraction of us, in a very few local areas, were eligible for the EV Project.

Yes, I am sympathetic to your frustration. At this point I'll be waiting more than six months after ordering the car before I get it, and I'm frustrated. To not even be able to order for a year must be extremely frustrating.

 

[mitch672]

Yes, well LA was added, and San Diego was an EVP city to start with.

Nissan will be delivering cars in the STATES that have the EVP in them, in other words, its easier for them to support Sacremento and other CA cities, than deliveries to totally new states. Yes, I know not every city is in the EVP in CA, or AZ, or WA, etc, but the cities not in the project will still benifet and get their Leafs by end of Summer 2011

We can't even place order until "Fall/Winter 2011", so its still quite a difference.
6-12 months to get your Leaf? try 18 months from now, out here (more than 24 months total)... Summer of 2012 if we are lucky.

Nissan and AV wouldn't even let me order an EVSE, cash & carry, because on the dashboard, AV is not performing "Home Assesments" in my area, so they had no way to bypass that, even though the Nissan person on the phone did set the "flag" for no home assesment wanted... so I couldn't even get the EVSE from AV, and take advantage of the %50 fed tax credit... I looked at Clipper Creek, but $2300 for the CS-40 (or $2600 for the CS-100), is just way too much to spend for something so far out. $800 for the AV EVSE-RS wouldn't have been too bad, with a $400 fed credit.. but it's just not to be.

 

[DaveEV]

The "battery pack heater" uses battery power to generate the heat! except when connected to the J-1772 EVSE... the heat/AC in the vehicle uses battery power. You get stuck in one of our typical traffic jams or one of our famous 3-4 hour winter commutes, you're going to have to shutoff the heat, to have any chance of making it.

Mitch, the car will go 50 miles in 8 hours of stop and go traffic in the winter cold with the heat on. The winter package (with more efficient steering wheel/seat warmers) will let you go farther in cold conditions with similar comfort.

The heater appears to use a very reasonable amount of energy - it's certainly not as drastic as you seem to like to make everything appear.

There's a good reason why Nissan is focusing on EV project areas and in states which have committed to funding charging infrastructure. If you don't like it, well, tough. Your constant complaining and whining here isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

[mitch672]

drees, I'm not worried about the Leaf, I am only taking a very casual interest in it now, as I will never own one. Its a real EV for me (homebuilt), or a PHEV Prius (converted or factory), I don't feel the Leaf will do well in cold weather environments, a pig is a pig, even with lipstick.

 

[qwk]

Please, Please tell me who other than Nissan is going to be able to sell me a production EV (not a hybrid) by the first half of 2012. I don't see it. They are the only game in town if you want EV. I don't consider a Volt or a Prius as an alternative. They might be an option to replace my long distance ICE when it's up for replacement in 2013.

Tesla will.

 

[kmp647]

Oh good Tesla, now where is that spare $110k I had laying around

 

[mitch672]

Oh good Tesla, now where is that spare $110k I had laying around

The real issue (besides the price of course), is the roadster is only a 2 seater, who knows when the model S will be out, that's supposed to bs much more reasonable, only about $55K or so

 

[charlie1300]

Please, Please tell me who other than Nissan is going to be able to sell me a production EV (not a hybrid) by the first half of 2012. I don't see it. They are the only game in town if you want EV. I don't consider a Volt or a Prius as an alternative. They might be an option to replace my long distance ICE when it's up for replacement in 2013.

Tesla will.

OK, I stand corrected. I should have said an EV I could afford. Approximately $30,000 or less after tax credit.

 

[tps]

Oh good Tesla, now where is that spare $110k I had laying around

I'd rather not have an EV which runs on laptop batteries...

 

[SanDust]

I am comming to the conclusion that in cold weather climates, like Boston where I live in, EVs may just be inpractical... and a PHEV is probably the way to go, until the battery pack can hold substantialy more charge/mileage/time.

Disappointing but probably realistic. In addition to the range issues attributable to increased losses and auxiliary heating demands there is the additional problem of battery performance. Lithium batteries don't perform well when it's below 0C and it's not clear how the Leaf pack would heat itself if the temperature were colder than the operating range of the battery. Cold temperatures per se won't reduce battery life but using the pack below its operating range could result in plating which would. This latter effect would obtain regardless of the pack size, so a larger pack would not by itself address the problem.

No doubt an EV could work. It's just a question of how much trouble you're willing to go to.

 

[mitch672]

I am comming to the conclusion that in cold weather climates, like Boston where I live in, EVs may just be inpractical... and a PHEV is probably the way to go, until the battery pack can hold substantialy more charge/mileage/time.

Disappointing but probably realistic. In addition to the range issues attributable to increased losses and auxiliary heating demands there is the additional problem of battery performance. Lithium batteries don't perform well when it's below 0C and it's not clear how the Leaf pack would heat itself if the temperature were colder than the operating range of the battery. Cold temperatures per se won't reduce battery life but using the pack below its operating range could result in plating which would. This latter effect would obtain regardless of the pack size, so a larger pack would not by itself address the problem.

No doubt an EV could work. It's just a question of how much trouble you're willing to go to.

It's not below zero here that often, like it would be in more northerly states (like MN, ND etc) but we so have plenty of misserable weather, that even affects my Prius mileage. The heat issue is really a range issue here, we sometimes have very long weather related commutes, the worst was a few years ago during an afternoon commuting snowstorm, took me 5 hours to drive home 17 miles, last week we had one as well, 2 hours for the drive.. I'm not saying these are show stoppers, especially if you can charge at work, but it does get you thinking about the issue.

 

[sjfotos]

I am comming to the conclusion that in cold weather climates, like Boston where I live in, EVs may just be inpractical... and a PHEV is probably the way to go, until the battery pack can hold substantialy more charge/mileage/time.

Disappointing but probably realistic. In addition to the range issues attributable to increased losses and auxiliary heating demands there is the additional problem of battery performance. Lithium batteries don't perform well when it's below 0C and it's not clear how the Leaf pack would heat itself if the temperature were colder than the operating range of the battery. Cold temperatures per se won't reduce battery life but using the pack below its operating range could result in plating which would. This latter effect would obtain regardless of the pack size, so a larger pack would not by itself address the problem.

No doubt an EV could work. It's just a question of how much trouble you're willing to go to.

It's not below zero here that often, like it would be in more northerly states (like MN, ND etc) but we so have plenty of misserable weather, that even affects my Prius mileage. The heat issue is really a range issue here, we sometimes have very long weather related commutes, the worst was a few years ago during an afternoon commuting snowstorm, took me 5 hours to drive home 17 miles, last week we had one as well, 2 hours for the drive.. I'm not saying these are show stoppers, especially if you can charge at work, but it does get you thinking about the issue.

At o degrees Celsius, or 32 degrees Fahrenheit, there would be major sections of the country, most certainly Pennsylvania and points north, that would experience issues, if what SanDust describes is applicable.

 

[mitch672]

ah. thought he meant 0F, 0C never mind

it's often below 32F many many days here during the winter.

I guess those lithiums don't like cold. makes sense, slows down or stops the chemical reaction, and thats all any battery is.

of course if you keep the car in a garage at home, and park in an enclosed garage at work, it's less of an issue, you then have the time the car is outdoors actually being used, and the pack heater could hopefully keep them above freezing, and just the use of the battery will cause some heat to be generated as it is discharged.

I would say if you park outdoors, for an extended period below freezing, yes, you could have a problem.

 

[sjfotos]

ah. thought he meant 0F, 0C never mind

it's often below 32F many many days here during the winter.

I guess those lithiums don't like cold. makes sense, slows down or stops the chemical reaction, and thats all any battery is.

of course if you keep the car in a garage at home, and park in an enclosed garage at work, it's less of an issue, you then have the time the car is outdoors actually being used, and the pack heater could hopefully keep them above freezing, and just the use of the battery will cause some heat to be generated as it is discharged.

I would say if you park outdoors, for an extended period below freezing, yes, you could have a problem.

Yes, this is going to be interesting and is the topic I have been most curious about. I guess i will have to wait to see what the Cold Weather Package is about. Having lived in Minnesota, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Boston and New York, I can testify, they all FREEZE

 

[tps]

Nissan's "The LEAF Story" video shows them doing cold weather tests at a Hokkaido test facility, so I have no doubt that Nissan understands what they have to do to make the car run in cold weather.

 

[evnow]

Looks like the posts have gone completely off topic ... I suggest a separate thread.