Nissan: We Can Match Bolt

[desiv]

Except it would need new suspension and other modifications and it would also be an even slower of slow EVs with all the extra weight and the under powered motor it already has.

Which is another reason I doubt it will happen.
Too bad, because my wife and I are apparently in the minority in that we like the car, except the range.
Actually, my main reason that I might not choose another Nissan for my next EV is that I am worried that they will change the look too much.. ;-) ;-)

desiv

 

[tkdbrusco]

I really love my Leaf as well. I like everything about the car except for the range. The car is designed as a roomy and effective form of around town transportation and it serves these purposes very well. My plan is still to sell it when our Model 3 arrives, but I'd love to be able to keep it if I can. I think the only thing that would convince me to do so would be a 30kwh affordable replacement pack option. Without that, I just can't justify keeping it knowing that a degraded battery will impact its use in 3-4 years time.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Some of you seem to be assuming Nissan hasn't already been working on the next gen Leaf.

I expect we will see something from them in dealer lots within 6 months of the Bolt hitting the GM dealer lots.
Likely 2 months.

Agreed. My bet is that Nissan will unveil the new Leaf before the Bolt hits the showrooms. Probably sometime this fall. It will be available to buy within 6 months of the Bolt, and well before the Model III.

Nissan invested a lot to be in the EV game early. They haven't just been sitting around doing nothing.

 

[Nubo]

I really doubt that the Leaf can support much bigger than the 30kwh pack without major modifications. The weight and size difference would dramatically change the car. There's no way that they can push it much more than 30kwh in that same vehicle. The only way that they can remain competitive to the Bolt is to embrace the lower range, decrease the price and sell it as a commuter type vehicle.

Not so long ago, there was 'no possible way' to put the 24KWh battery in a vehicle of the LEAF's size. Some of the hopes for larger storage capacity presume that the battery technology itself will improve.

This. The Gen1 LEAF pack has rather poor volumetric efficiency to begin with. One would hope that increased capacity would come with size and weight improvements.

 

[evnow]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

 

[user 10599]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

Excellent point!

 

[GRA]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

Lack of advertising, lack of updating, lack of cargo space, lack of QC are all factors. Fix at least those last two, and I expect the Focus would have equalled or outsold the (24 kWh) LEAF. It's the best looking affordable BEV out there, and its driving qualities are also better than the LEAF. The LEAF's a better people/cargo hauler.

 

[dhanson865]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

Which FFE? The Ford Fusion Energi or the Ford Focus Electric? Or is there a third FFE you were thinking of?

Either way I think the answer is because one is a hybrid not a pure EV and the other is only sold in a few states so it's basically a compliance car that they don't want to sell a ton of.

and for the record I didn't ad hyperlinks to this post, the forum software won't let me type either FFE without turning it into a link.

 

[GRA]

Nissan would have to prove to me that the 60kWh battery will be as durable as the Bolt in hot climates.

The jury remains out on how well the Bolt's pack will hold up, given that they've altered the cooling somewhat, and also are pushing the usable SoC range up to very near the total SoC range. One of the things I liked about the Volt is that Chevy was so conservative with the battery, employing a belt and suspenders approach to make sure the battery would be durable and show no noticeable degradation (to the customer) for years. We'll just have to wait and see with the Bolt, but I don't expect its battery to hold up as well as the Volt's. I do expect it to hold up better than any BEV completely lacking any TMS.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

Unlike Nissan, Ford doesn't stock them around here, you have to special order and no EV techs at dealers. Plus no QC.

Can Nissan pull off a 60 kWh pack without TMS, especially when QC goes to 100 kW? Kinda doubt it.

 

[smkettner]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

FFE has 200+ mile range? My comment was based on longer range even 60kWh that was tossed out.

If FFE had 60 kWh same as LEAF there is a good chance the FFE battery reputation would be a real advantage over LEAF.

 

[kmp647]

Gotta figure that the 60kwh Nissan battery will have to have some sort of cooling . I would think a system like the ENV-200 uses could work if engineered properly. Might be less expensive than some of the other mfr solutions
then just heating elements that are more active than the current Leaf IE dont let the pack bascially freeze before activation :?:

 

[evnow]

FFE has 200+ mile range? My comment was based on longer range even 60kWh that was tossed out.

If FFE had 60 kWh same as LEAF there is a good chance the FFE battery reputation would be a real advantage over LEAF.

Well, neither FFE, nor Leaf has 200 mile range now. So their comparison is very, very valid. Infact, the longer the range, less of an issue any battery degradation would be. So, battery degradation issues should be stronger with a 80 mile EV, than with a 200 mile EV. If Bolt could sell 10:1 over Leaf 2, FFE should be selling 20:1 over Leaf.

There is more to it than longevity of the battery when it comes to selling EVs - since longevity issues can be easily set aside (like most of us have done) with leasing instead of buying.

 

[edatoakrun]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

Lack of advertising, lack of updating, lack of cargo space, lack of QC are all factors.,,.

Maybe also, the fact that the 2013 FFE ATM battery packs seem to provide inferior performance to The Nissan LEAF packs in very hot climates, such as Phoenix?

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

At last report, the FFEs' average loss of ~10.2% of baseline capacity after ~14 months and ~11,600 miles driven, doesn't look all that much better than the results for the 2013 LEAFs (or the 2015 Soul EVs) also being tested.

However, the lower efficiency of the Four Focus E's, using ~21% more Wh per mile than the LEAFs, and ~17% more Wh per mile than the Souls, seems to show just how poorly thermally managed packs can perform in a hot climate.

Back on topic:

I would expect the Bolt's thermal management system will not impose such large efficiency penalties, to achieve such minor gains in battery longevity, as the FFE seems to in very hot climates.

Though I think you still should expect the Bolts ATM pack will increase operating costs overall, over the costs for passively thermal managed pack BEVs, in the cooler climates where most American BEV owners live and drive.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I just want to point out that while temperature does account for a large amount o degradation, the other major impact comes from cycle count. A 60kwh pack with have 50% of the cycles for similar miles to a 30kwh Leaf pack, and if a 30kwh leaf pack is improved enough compared to the 24kwh that Nissan will put an 100K capacity warranty on it, we can assume that even with no TMS, a 60kwh pack would be at least 50 better at retaining capacity. If Nissan thinking that even in the most extra climates, a 30kwh is good for 70% capacity at 100K miles, then a similar 60kwh pack should be good for 70% capacity at 200K miles. Maybe they figure that this is "good enough" and just forget ahead without TMS.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

RE: cycle count on a 60 kWh pack, would you wait until it was low to recharge, or top off once it got down to ~50%?

 

[GRA]

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

Lack of advertising, lack of updating, lack of cargo space, lack of QC are all factors.,,.

Maybe also, the fact that the 2013 FFE ATM battery packs seem to provide inferior performance to The Nissan LEAF packs in very hot climates, such as Phoenix? <snip>

The number of potential customers for either car who are aware of those tests is minuscule, so I very much doubt that it has a significant effect on sales. If anything, knowledge of the FFE's ATM without having knowledge of the INL test data would tend to bias people who are at least aware of the potential benefits of ATM towards the FFE.

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

At last report, the FFEs' average loss of ~10.2% of baseline capacity after ~14 months and ~11,600 miles driven, doesn't look all that much better than the results for the 2013 LEAFs (or the 2015 Soul EVs) also being tested.

However, the lower efficiency of the Four Focus E's, using ~21% more Wh per mile than the LEAFs, and ~17% more Wh per mile than the Souls, seems to show just how poorly thermally managed packs can perform in a hot climate.

Yes, it shows that the FFE's ATM let's the pack get and stay much too hot (and the Soul's maybe also). That's a matter of a poorly designed ATM, not the failure of ATM in general. GM and Tesla did it right.

Back on topic:

I would expect the Bolt's thermal management system will not impose such large efficiency penalties, to achieve such minor gains in battery longevity, as the FFE seems to in very hot climates.

Though I think you still should expect the Bolts ATM pack will increase operating costs overall, over the costs for passively thermal managed pack BEVs, in the cooler climates where most American BEV owners live and drive.

Most (or at least a plurality - 40+ %) of American BEV owners live in California, predominantly coastal regions, and we've seen degradation well above what Nissan claimed in both SoCal and the Bay Area. While both of those regions have areas which are much hotter than the average across the region, they also have areas where the temps are very moderate, and we've still seen excessive degradation. Add owners in the Inland Empire and the Central Valley, plus pretty much anywhere south of the 36th parallel in summer, and its clear that LMO batteries without ATM just can't hack summer temps over the majority of the U.S. Unless you consider 3 years average to 70% to be acceptable in a vehicle that has a $30k+ MSRP.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

RE: cycle count on a 60 kWh pack, would you wait until it was low to recharge, or top off once it got down to ~50%?

Roughly speaking, a 1/2 cycle is less than 1/2 as tough on a battery as compared to a full cycle. So if a battery is rated for 1000 cycles, it should be good for >2000 half cycles (all else being equal). It's better to avoid extreme SOCs anyway, so keeping the battery between 25-75% is much better than waiting for it to get down near 0, and then topping it off just to avoid "cycles".

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Thanks Brian. Charge vs range needs should be much easier to manage with a 60 kWh pack..

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

All people have to do is ask around what battery will perform better as the vehicle approaches 100,000 miles and the Bolt could outsell Nissan 10 to 1.

Then, why isn't FFE outselling Leaf 10 to 1 ?

same reason as any car. price and availability