Nissan to double US sales of electric Leaf: Ghosn

[tps]

You can make all the rational arguments you want about people driving 40 miles a day or less, but a car that one can't just jump into and drive to New York or wherever is a tough sell (that's why the Chevy Volt fans are so smug). Never mind that 60% of households have two or more cars and they could just use the other one (or rent a car for longer trips).

This isn't about reason, it is about having a country full of drivers trained to think that any car should go hundreds of miles and then be refueled in five minutes from one of the vast network of gas stations.

Funny you should use New York as your example. Ironically, except in the Hertz rental LEAF, whose home is New York City, I've never driven there; I always take the train.

But back to the problem of range, Nissan has this one exactly right. Most people don't really need that much range. What we need is charging infrastructure. Quick charging for longer trips, and destination L1/L2 charging for normal trips. It's a paradigm shift: the EV paradigm is that most cars spend most of their time parked. If they can be charging whenever parked, then range problems go way down. EV charging needs to be more common than parking meters. But many people aren't good at understanding new things in new terms, they try to fit new things into what they already know, the gas station paradigm.

I had a cellular phone back in the 1980's; huge battery, very limited talk time, very few cellular towers. But fast forward to today; we got there. EVs are in the same place as cellular was 25-30 years ago. We will get there, maybe not in 5 years. Some of us may not still be driving in 25 years. I'll be 81 then, which is why I don't want to wait. I don't even want to wait a few years until today's LEAFs come off lease or have reasonable availability on the used market I want to have the EV experience now while I can still enjoy it for several years, even if I have to put up with the limited infrastructure, just as I did with cellular phones 25 years ago.

Back then, people thought I was crazy for having a phone with expensive, unreliable, spotty service, a phone which had to be charged very regularly. But I used its wireless, go (most) anywhere property to my advantage, although I have to admit the "follow me" roaming of those days was sort of a pain. Right around 2000, I got rid of my landline, switching exclusively to cellular with a national plan that was automatic and much better than the follow-me roaming of the old days, and I've never looked back. And I just got a nice Samsung Galaxy 2 phone.

I see EVs coming in similar to cellular, with one possible advantage. Young people these days are used to rapid technological change, it's all they've ever known. To them I probably seem like a dinosaur in many ways. Gazing into my crystal ball, so to speak, I think that it may be a combination of steady infrastructure buildout coupled with younger folks moving into a phase of their life where they can afford the latest automotive technology that may bring EVs to popularity. Not sure if this is the future the Ghosn sees, but this is what I predict.

 

[lpickup]

...
This isn't about reason, it is about having a country full of drivers trained to think that any car should go hundreds of miles and then be refueled in five minutes from one of the vast network of gas stations.

...

But many people aren't good at understanding new things in new terms, they try to fit new things into what they already know, the gas station paradigm.

...

Young people these days are used to rapid technological change, it's all they've ever known.

So last night I was out at dinner with a big group of people. One of those people was a 14-15 year old boy and we got to talking about the LEAF.

He pretty much had two questions for me:

1) What do you do when it runs out of power?
2) How long do you have to wait for it to charge?

This is a kid who doesn't even drive yet and is only thinking about things in terms of the gas station paradigm!

I had to tell him (in a voice to make sure it was overheard by the rest of the group) that he had to stop thinking about it in gas station terms (I didn't use the word paradigm, but that's a great term!) and that (a) I start every day off with a full tank and always have enough in that tank for wherever I'm planning on going in the LEAF that day and (b) I NEVER wait for it to charge. I take 20 seconds to plug it in at the end of the day and 20 seconds to unplug it in the morning. I'm usually sleeping when it's actually charging.

Who knows if I got through to him or not, but that just goes to show you, even the young kids are not immune to falling into the gas station paradigm!

 

[Train]

If the price of the Leaf were $15,000-$20,000, some people (typically familes that have two cars) may not have a problem paying for what's basically a commuter car. The ROI would be much sooner and they could see the savings in fuel in a few years. But to question why most others would not pay almost $40K for a car that gets 70 miles per charge makes me think some here have lost all objectivity.

For tens of millions of people, it would be their only car. They have to have a car that can go short distances and long distances. Why is this so hard to understand? Because most here are affluent enough to own two cars, have a house with a garage and wired for 220. A significant portion of others don't live in homes, they live in apts with no charging opportunities. Many will have to park on crowded urban streets. What are they supposed to do, fish a wire out the window two floors and out to the street?

Cities and communities can't tear up hundreds of miles of sidewalk to install charge stations just "in case" someone has an electric vehicle to charge. The alternative is to install as many "quick" charging stations at gas stations. But people will not wait 30 minutes to charge their vehicle. What are they supposed to do? Hang out, buy Starbucks and talk about weather? Meanwhile, the person waiting now has to wait an hour or more because they're waiting for someone else who's waiting on their car to charge.

We're asking people to drop nearly $40,000 for a car that gets significantly LESS range and takes a lot longer to "fill up." Oh, and it's a couple thousand more for the home charge station if you want to charge in 8 hours or less. Nissan's going to sell 150,000 of these when they get the Tennessee plant up and running? Some are in for quite a disappointment.

Many people won't come close to qualifying for a $7500 tax credit. Many are in their twenties entering the work force for their first career oriented job. They don't want to borrow $40,000 (including fees, taxes and charging station). And for others, their paid off beater saves them $400 a month.

People will not spend more money for less car. And it matters not one whit if there were thousands of charge stations across their community.

The EV will succeed or fail on its own merits. But the talk of "forcing people" to choose a certain car and think the way you do is quite scary. How about discouraging swimming pools because I think that's a waste of water? Water needs to be conserved. Pools aren't a need, just a luxury. Maybe we need to ban them! Is someone going to tell me how many square feet of home to buy now? How many boats I can own? Jetskis? Private aircraft? Just one widescreen or can I have two?

And most Christians I know don't believe the earth is 6000 years old. They believe the earth is billions of years old as scientists and geologists believe it to be. A small portion of evangelicals believe in a young earth. I'm sure there's a percentage of people that believe all cars, ICE's and EV's alike should be banned and everyone return to walking and oxcarts. Should we listen to them, too?

It's quite simple. When EV's have a range of 300+ miles, can charge in 10 minutes, and have a price comparable to petrol vehicles, they will sell many of them. But when the price is $10,000 more, has a range of 70 miles, have to wait hours to charge for additional miles, and you need to spend a couple grand more to sufficiently charge at home, it's quite understandable that most people will say "No, thanks."

 

[Train]

I think the only thing that will take to get to 150K a year is sales is to have 150K cars to sell available. Once Smyrna comes online and Nissan can make 150K a year, they will sell that many, without any changes to the car.

And the Cubs will win the World Series next year.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

1. I think you have missed the point that the battery on an EV is a refillable glass that gets refilled mainly when the car sits idle. I’ve put a couple of hundred miles on my car in a day without waiting for it to charge. As has been said, cars spend much of their time parked while we do what we do.
2. Our first 11,000 miles cost us around $300 in electricity. The ROI on a Leaf will quickly exceed that of a hybrid.
3. Quick charging will likely take less than an half an hour on the rare occasion it will be needed because few folks run the battery all the way down. DC quick charging is so fast, even 10 minutes of charging makes a substantial difference.
4. No one is planning on forcing anyone to buy anything, banning swimming pools or going back to ox carts. This is all still within the context of a largely free market economy… well, except for the heavy subsidies to oil/gas/ICE driving and the minor subsidy to EV’s, which will expire soon enough. If EV’s are going to make it, it will ultimately be on their own merits, you are correct there.
5. This technology will come in waves. We’ve seen the high end luxury variants spear head the trend, now we are seeing the medium priced versions and with economy of scale we will see low cost economy versions (the i-Miev is already available for around $20 after tax credit) and with each step of the way the battery technology will improve, giving more range for less $$. Also, with time, a wider variety of every shape, type and size vehicle will eventually be available.
6. The people who don’t qualify for the tax credit will be able to take advantage of the tax credit by seeing lower cost used EV’s on the road. We will likely sell ours and pass on the savings soon enough. Having paid no sales tax, being eligible for the full tax credit and adding up what we are saving by not buying gas, we will be able to afford to pass on the Leaf into the used market at a reasonable depreciation and upgrade to a new one. For folks who need to save money, it is surely a better bet to buy used, that will never change.
7. The cost of home charging is not necessarily thousands, it can be hundreds. Many folks are having great luck with http://evseupgrade.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, having the extension chord that comes with the Leaf upgraded for much less than a typical home charging station.

If the price of the Leaf were $15,000-$20,000, some people (typically familes that have two cars) may not have a problem paying for what's basically a commuter car. The ROI would be much sooner and they could see the savings in fuel in a few years. But to question why most others would not pay almost $40K for a car that gets 70 miles per charge makes me think some here have lost all objectivity.

For tens of millions of people, it would be their only car. They have to have a car that can go short distances and long distances. Why is this so hard to understand? Because most here are affluent enough to own two cars, have a house with a garage and wired for 220. A significant portion of others don't live in homes, they live in apts with no charging opportunities. Many will have to park on crowded urban streets. What are they supposed to do, fish a wire out the window two floors and out to the street?

Cities and communities can't tear up hundreds of miles of sidewalk to install charge stations just "in case" someone has an electric vehicle to charge. The alternative is to install as many "quick" charging stations at gas stations. But people will not wait 30 minutes to charge their vehicle. What are they supposed to do? Hang out, buy Starbucks and talk about weather? Meanwhile, the person waiting now has to wait an hour or more because they're waiting for someone else who's waiting on their car to charge.

We're asking people to drop nearly $40,000 for a car that gets significantly LESS range and takes a lot longer to "fill up." Oh, and it's a couple thousand more for the home charge station if you want to charge in 8 hours or less. Nissan's going to sell 150,000 of these when they get the Tennessee plant up and running? Some are in for quite a disappointment.

Many people won't come close to qualifying for a $7500 tax credit. Many are in their twenties entering the work force for their first career oriented job. They don't want to borrow $40,000 (including fees, taxes and charging station). And for others, their paid off beater saves them $400 a month.

People will not spend more money for less car. And it matters not one whit if there were thousands of charge stations across their community.

The EV will succeed or fail on its own merits. But the talk of "forcing people" to choose a certain car and think the way you do is quite scary. How about discouraging swimming pools because I think that's a waste of water? Water needs to be conserved. Pools aren't a need, just a luxury. Maybe we need to ban them! Is someone going to tell me how many square feet of home to buy now? How many boats I can own? Jetskis? Private aircraft? Just one widescreen or can I have two?

And most Christians I know don't believe the earth is 6000 years old. They believe the earth is billions of years old as scientists and geologists believe it to be. A small portion of evangelicals believe in a young earth. I'm sure there's a percentage of people that believe all cars, ICE's and EV's alike should be banned and everyone return to walking and oxcarts. Should we listen to them, too?

It's quite simple. When EV's have a range of 300+ miles, can charge in 10 minutes, and have a price comparable to petrol vehicles, they will sell many of them. But when the price is $10,000 more, has a range of 70 miles, have to wait hours to charge for additional miles, and you need to spend a couple grand more to sufficiently charge at home, it's quite understandable that most people will say "No, thanks."

 

[Herm]

Train, when gas is $9 a gallon people will look at that 240V drier socket in their garages and that $40k Leaf and conclude that its a better deal than putting $270 worth of gas in the old paid-for Explorer. I'm not sure what the people in the apartments will do, probably complain to the landlord to install sockets in every parking spot... or take the electric bus.

You may retort that people then will be driving $40k very small and very slow diesels that get 70mpg, perhaps.. but they will look with longing at the large and powerful Leaf as it whirs by. Perhaps you will look back at Tesla, GM and Nissan with admiration for taking the big leap in 2010.

 

[tps]

Train -- I agree that EVs are not an obvious choice for everybody today. But the change that makes them so will not come overnight; it will take years, just as it did with cellular phones, the internet, home video, etc.. Your arguments are firmly rooted in "what is", not what will be. I think everybody here understands that EVs will not be a smash hit this year or even next, but they are a serious possibility, even a probabilty for the future. Rather than an overnight sensation, I see momentum building slowly and steadily until EVs are commonplace, just as many of the technological things we take for granted today. It just takes a good look at history to see the pattern.

 

[cwerdna]

2. Our first 11,000 miles cost us around $300 in electricity. The ROI on a Leaf will quickly exceed that of a hybrid.
3. Quick charging will likely take less than an half an hour on the rare occasion it will be needed because few folks run the battery all the way down. DC quick charging is so fast, even 10 minutes of charging makes a substantial difference.

You're lucky that you're blessed with very cheap electricity in Seattle (I lived in WA state for ~9 years) vs. ripoff PG&E. It is NOT cheap in CA (I went thru some numbers at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155508#p155508" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and some people followed up). Based on the way gasoline is priced, the ROI is much longer and for some states, there isn't any. Take a look at http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/fig7p5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

As for quick charging, it'd be nice we had any operational public ones in the Bay Area. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=154852#p154852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; from 12/1/11.

I agree w/much of what Train says, unfortunately. For much greater adoption, it's going to take a few these: lower prices, significantly longer range, fewer compromises, skyrocketing gasoline prices, gasoline shortages, WAY more EV education, cheaper electricity for EV owners, etc.

Heck, if the Leaf's range was say 150 miles after the EPA downgrade, I'd have one now. (I've posted numerous times here about why I don't have a Leaf yet...)

 

[planet4ever]

For tens of millions of people, it would be their only car. They have to have a car that can go short distances and long distances. Why is this so hard to understand? Because most here are affluent enough to own two cars, have a house with a garage and wired for 220. A significant portion of others don't live in homes, they live in apts with no charging opportunities. Many will have to park on crowded urban streets. What are they supposed to do, fish a wire out the window two floors and out to the street?

According to the 2010 Census, there were 116.7 million occupied housing units in the United States on Census Day and only about one third of those were rentals. Even allowing for condos without garage access, there must be more than 70 million families who would be able to charge their car at home. But let's restrict ourselves to families with two or more cars. A study by Experian Automotive found that about two thirds of all US households have two or more automobiles, and I would certainly expect that percentage to be even higher for people living in a home they own. But let's be generous and exclude 25 million of the above homes that might have a single car.

That means, economic issues aside, that the "niche" market for presently available EVs in the US must be at least 45,000,000.

Granted, the current economics knock a lot of people out of that number, but if you lease the numbers are less daunting. Your monthly payment is lower and you don't have to worry about eligibility for the tax credit. I'd be willing to bet the TCO will be significantly lower than what most people spend on SUVs.

Ray

 

[cwerdna]

Granted, the current economics knock a lot of people out of that number, but if you lease the numbers are less daunting. Your monthly payment is lower and you don't have to worry about eligibility for the tax credit. I'd be willing to bet the TCO will be significantly lower than what most people spend on SUVs.

Yet an enormous % of American car buyers unfortunately, opt for SUVs or "crossovers" (I hate the vague term) rather than cars which would have a lower TCO. See http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. The amount of monstrosity class (full-sized) SUVs (usually driven solo or w/minimal cargo and passengers) I see running around in my area is insane.

Take a look at how many monstrosities class SUVs (e.g. Tahoe, Yukon, Suburban, Escalde, etc.) GM moved last year at http://media.gm.com/content/dam/Media/gmcom/investor/2012/0101Deliveries.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Add in some of the not so efficient SUVs and "crossovers"...

Side note: I've often heard the media say "fuel-efficient crossovers". :roll: GM moved 193K Equinoxes (which GM calls "Fuel-Efficient Crossover SUV" at http://www.chevrolet.com/equinox-crossover-suv/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false last year but I wouldn't be surprised if many are disappointed w/their real world mileage (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/02/why-the-chevy-equinox-epa-mileage-numbers-dont-add-up/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

 

[Smidge204]

A significant portion of others don't live in homes, they live in apts with no charging opportunities. Many will have to park on crowded urban streets. What are they supposed to do, fish a wire out the window two floors and out to the street?

If someone lives in a city apartment, chances are they: (1) Have a place off the street to park it, such as a parking facility that is part of or close to the apartment building, in which case charging is probably not that big a deal provided the building owner is amicable to the idea, or (2) Don't own a car in the first place, because they live in the city and don't really need one to get around.

Some cities even have laws requiring you to have a place to park off the street before you're allowed to own one, or charge fees for parking permits allowing you to park in the street overnight.
=Smidge=

 

[lpickup]

Train, your line of thinking assumes that we are out of ensure that every car bought from here on out is an EV.

Speaking for myself that is simply not the case! I understand perfectly that the following people would not be ideal candidates for BEVs and wouldn't expect them to buy them:

1) Single car individuals (or families)
2) Those that live in rental units or townhomes that could not install adequate charging facilities at home (I suspect there is a lot of overlap here with #1)
3) Those that live in rural areas with considerably longer drives and lack of infastructure
4) Those that truly do have a need to haul a lot of "stuff" in their trucks on a regular (or even monthly/quarterly basis) (by the way, I think this number is somewhat less than the number of trucks out there)
5) Those that live in very cold climates for which the range does dip down to an unacceptably low figure and when extreme temperatures can get to the point where you start worrying about the batteries freezing
6) Those that truly do need 6 or more passenger seating in all of their cars (I do think most multi-car large families could probably get by with one smaller car, but okay).
7) Probably most important: those that cannot afford to buy a new car or who do not think that new cars are worth the significant investment.

I also would not want to be at the end of 2012 and have a significant number of the vehicles on the road be BEVs. The infrastructure needs time to grow with the EV. We need to figure out things like how are we going to handle 25 EVs in a parking lot with 8 charging stations? How are we going to pay for public charging? How are we going to finance road projects if there is suddenly a lot less gas tax $$ being collected? What kind of real impact will this have on the grid and energy generation and hopefully give us enough time to transition more and more of our supply to renewables. And it will give car manufacturers a chance to scale up their manufacturing at a sustainable pace so that prices do come down before the tax credits terminate. I am perfectly happy with a strong growth rate, not a ridiculous one!

Even taking these things into account, I look at all the commuters driving around my area and all the multi-car houses in neighborhoods. And while I haven't done the math, I do have a feeling that after taking all the cases above into account, and figuring that only 10-20% of people would be up for a new car anyway in 2012 (maybe it's even more--I'm assuming new car every 5 to 10 years with that figure, but I know plenty that buy more often), you may be down to just a small fraction of a percent of people that would be candidates for BEVs this year. But that's still significant! Even just a tenth of a percent nationwide would be far more cars than we're even talking about here. And that's what I would consider an overwhelming victory!

 

[adric22]

I have absolutely no problem with the person who says "An electric car just won't work for me because..." then list out some reason like they drive 200 miles per day, or need to haul a horse trailer, or whatever. What ticks me off are the people on the internet who attack proponents of electric cars saying that "Electric cars are useless because.." and assume that because the car won't work for them, that it also won't work for anyone else. The way I see it right now, I bet 25% or more of the US population could drive an electric car as their only car and never have a single drawback. As the range improves, charging infrastructure grows, and apartment buildings start allowing installation of level-2 chargers, then I think that number could easily double or triple.

And yes.. the gas station paradigm still irritates the heck out of me. I've had many people converse with me and tell me they are just not willing to wait around for 8 hours to charge their car. Then I have to explain that I have had my Leaf for almost a year and there has never been one single instance where I had to wait around for my car to charge. I just don't understand why people can't think beyond the idea of a gas station. Most of these people have cell phones, surely they must understand the concept.

 

[lpickup]

So last night I was out at dinner with a big group of people.

Oh, I forgot to mention--and this isn't directly related to the discussion--but as the waitress brought out our bills, I tried to conspicuously get my phone out and say "time to preheat the car". Of course it kind of backfired because 3 other people at the table said "Oh yeah" and all got their remote car starters out and clicked them. But since it was such a large party, they screwed up everyone's bills and it took about 20 minutes to get it straightened out, so I was able to recover a bit and check my phone to see that the HVAC had turned off and restart it as they brought out the bills a second time, whereas everyone else was left wondering if their timers had expired (although I suppose to them it didn't matter--their cars were basically warm by then).

 

[coqui]

You really have to analyse what your true driving habits are. When I was younger (a lot younger :shock: ) I just had to have a jeep. Well turns out I really only used 4 wheel drive less than 5% of the time, so why have such a low mileage vehicle. Doesn't make sense, jeeps were just "cool" back then.

Today, my commute to work is well within the Leaf's range...so the Leaf is both cool AND cost effective.

 

[thankyouOB]

train,
that is an ugly story you are telling.
no one is saying the Leaf or EV configurations as pick ups, sedans, station wagons or whatever will be something everyone will want, need or must have appeal across renters, young folks, one-car owners, etc.

given all your logical arguments, can you explain why so many people in my urban neighborhood drive pickups that are marketed via ads that show them driving through muddy creeks or up rocky outcrops?
what about all those moms in SUVs who I see driving around alone or with two 40-pound kids in a 6000- 8000-pound vehicle? these are emotional decisions.
and the topline mercedes and audi and lexus and mbw and infiniti do they need to have $$$ appeal to clerks and school teachers and cops and shopkeepers? these are niche products.


this is a car with a target market, and a mode of power that can be adopted to many body styles. If it were going nowhere why is every manufacturer putting one in its line up?
Do you think BMW knows noting about the car business? ditto Nissan, Ford, etc.

as an aside, if you dont qualify for the tax credit, you either earn less than 60k or you make way too much to really care about it.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Don't you get an off peak discount? Just to be clear, I'm paying around 10 cents a kWh due to my participation in the green up program which offsets all our household use with renewables, excluding mass hydro. I'm getting over 4 MPkW year round, and even at your prices, it's still pretty darn economical. We are fortunate that residents have resisted the move to privatize the grid here. It does look like some things are going to have to change to make DC quick charging work in some places. I am very curious to see how we deal with issues as they come up with the DC network... mostly I'm just very excited that it appears to be happening quickly. Fortunately, our state is squarely behind doing what it takes to make this work. In the mean time, I believe there are a lot of people who will support this technology once they really trust it, even in areas where it's not so much cheaper.

2. Our first 11,000 miles cost us around $300 in electricity. The ROI on a Leaf will quickly exceed that of a hybrid.
3. Quick charging will likely take less than an half an hour on the rare occasion it will be needed because few folks run the battery all the way down. DC quick charging is so fast, even 10 minutes of charging makes a substantial difference.

You're lucky that you're blessed with very cheap electricity in Seattle (I lived in WA state for ~9 years) vs. ripoff PG&E. It is NOT cheap in CA (I went thru some numbers at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155508#p155508" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and some people followed up). Based on the way gasoline is priced, the ROI is much longer and for some states, there isn't any. Take a look at http://www.eia.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/fig7p5.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

As for quick charging, it'd be nice we had any operational public ones in the Bay Area. See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=154852#p154852" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; from 12/1/11.

I agree w/much of what Train says, unfortunately. For much greater adoption, it's going to take a few these: lower prices, significantly longer range, fewer compromises, skyrocketing gasoline prices, gasoline shortages, WAY more EV education, cheaper electricity for EV owners, etc.

Heck, if the Leaf's range was say 150 miles after the EPA downgrade, I'd have one now. (I've posted numerous times here about why I don't have a Leaf yet...)

 

[cwerdna]

Don't you get an off peak discount? Just to be clear, I'm paying around 10 cents a kWh due to my participation in the green up program which offsets all our household use with renewables, excluding mass hydro.

No. I'm on the E-1 schedule which is not time of used based.

Per http://www.pge.com/rateoptions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, the other choice is E-6 (for TOU) and I believe one can choose E-9, if you have an EV. Take a look at the rate insanity and if you choose E-6 or E-9 and don't install a 2nd electrical meter at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

For now, w/no Leaf, it would be crazy for me to switch to TOU based billing as I'm not working at the moment and most of my electricity use is during the day (as confirmed by checking my usage online, thanks to the Smart Meter that was installed). All it would do is make my rates skyrocket.

PG&E has an estimator if I were to switch to some of other the schedules but it doesn't work for me yet as they need 9 months of data.

Seattle City Light has really cheap electricity. Puget Sound Energy is still cheap vs. ripoff PG&E.

Just for kicks, try putting in your last month's electricity usage into http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Select Winter, zip code 95120, gas and no for CARE. I'd be curious to know your # of kwh used and your charges vs. what the PG&E calculator says. Then, I'd think you'd understand....

 

[Nekota]

Don't you get an off peak discount? Just to be clear, I'm paying around 10 cents a kWh due to my participation in the green up program which offsets all our household use with renewables, excluding mass hydro.

No. I'm on the E-1 schedule which is not time of used based.

Per http://www.pge.com/rateoptions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, the other choice is E-6 (for TOU) and I believe one can choose E-9, if you have an EV. Take a look at the rate insanity and if you choose E-6 or E-9 and don't install a 2nd electrical meter at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ERS.SHTML#ERS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

For now, w/no Leaf, it would be crazy for me to switch to TOU based billing as I'm not working at the moment and most of my electricity use is during the day (as confirmed by checking my usage online, thanks to the Smart Meter that was installed). All it would do is make my rates skyrocket.

PG&E has an estimator if I were to switch to some of other the schedules but it doesn't work for me yet as they need 9 months of data.

Seattle City Light has really cheap electricity. Puget Sound Energy is still cheap vs. ripoff PG&E.

Just for kicks, try putting in your last month's electricity usage into http://www.pge.com/myhome/myaccount/charges/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Select Winter, zip code 95120, gas and no for CARE. I'd be curious to know your # of kwh used and your charges vs. what the PG&E calculator says. Then, I'd think you'd understand....

I'm on zone X of PG&E and drive about 900 miles/month on the LEAF and recharge at home on E9A. My electric bill for December is $103 for 736KWHr or about 14 cents/KWHr. The winter E9 rates are lower than the summer E9 rates where my summer average cost is 16 to 18 cents/KWHr. Of course this is subject to change as PG&E wants to dramatically increase the E9 rates soon. Just for comparison, I put in 736KWHr and see $146 for E1 charges so E9 does better than E1 for my 1AM charging until it's changed.

 

[smkettner]

MY SCE super off peak rate works out to be 40% 10 cents and 60% 16 cents just for comparison.