New owner - praise, gripes, questions, and a strange issue

[LEAFfan]

But factors that can reduce range are many: speeds over 60 mph, elevation climbs, heater usage (less so with the heat pump in the 2013 SV/SL), colder temps (reduces battery performance), countervailing winds, rain/snow (adds friction), and of course driving styles (look up "hypermiling" to see the best driving styles). You'll get used to these and find your own comfort zone.

Colder temps will reduce the range, but it does not affect Performance, just capacity. You can be down 50% capacity and you will still have the same performance as 100% capacity.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Colder temps will reduce the range, but it does not affect Performance, just capacity. You can be down 50% capacity and you will still have the same performance as 100% capacity.

Not necessarily. At cold temperatures the LEAF can be power limited and is definitely regen limited.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "performance". Cold temperatures don't just limit battery capacity, they increase air resistance due to the increased density of air at cold temperatures and they increase rolling resistance due to cold tires and cold gear/bearing lubrication. I would consider that reduced performance.

For me those are the biggest hits to my cold weather range because my garaged car battery stays fairly warm from charging and being driven. Those who park outside might find cold battery capacity a bigger factor in cold weather range.

The flip-side of cold air density is that the greatly reduced density of hot air leads to reduced drag and increased mileage efficiency and range, as you have demonstrated. Warm humid air is the least dense, cold dry air is the most dense. And the difference in range can be large from that factor alone.

 

[RWatkins]

Cold temperatures don't just limit battery capacity, they increase air resistance due to the increased density of air at cold temperatures and they increase rolling resistance due to cold tires and cold gear/bearing lubrication. I would consider that reduced performance.

For me those are the biggest hits to my cold weather range because my garaged car battery stays fairly warm from charging and being driven. Those who park outside might find cold battery capacity a bigger factor in cold weather range.

The flip-side of cold air density is that the greatly reduced density of hot air leads to reduced drag and increased mileage efficiency and range, as you have demonstrated. Warm humid air is the least dense, cold dry air is the most dense. And the difference in range can be large from that factor alone.

Curious how much of a performance hit you get in winter. My situation here in north Idaho is similar to yours with an insulated garage, mountain inclines (not as much as yours), snow, packed snow, slush and ice in that order.

We're still working to sell our house before moving forward on a Leaf, but it's good to get real world experience regarding winter driving before buying. The garage ranges from 55-60 degrees most the time with occasional drops to 40-50 degrees. Our longest time out in the cold weather is 5-6 hours.
Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Curious how much of a performance hit you get in winter. My situation here in north Idaho is similar to yours with an insulated garage, mountain inclines (not as much as yours), snow, packed snow, slush and ice in that order.

We're still working to sell our house before moving forward on a Leaf, but it's good to get real world experience regarding winter driving before buying. The garage ranges from 55-60 degrees most the time with occasional drops to 40-50 degrees. Our longest time out in the cold weather is 5-6 hours.
Thanks in advance for your input.

First, "performance" could be either efficiency (miles/kWh) or range. Efficiency affects range, as does battery capacity. Battery capacity is affected by temperature and losses due to degradation (age, heat, cycles).

• With your garage situation you will lose relatively little range due to battery temperature. Even if your car is stored at 50ºF the battery will be somewhat warmer than that due to charging. I'll guess it would be 54º. If you look at Tony Williams' Range Chart, footnote 3 suggests a loss of about 4% battery capacity at that temperature versus 70º.

• The hit to range from cold air depends on speed. Below 35 mph it would be fairly small. At freeway speeds it would be significant. If cold air caused a 12% increase in drag and air resistance was 60% of the power used to move the car, then driving efficiency and range would be decreased by about 7% on dry pavement. You can get an idea of drag numbers due to cold from my Air density and temperature thread.

• Hills are also a problem because you don't get back all the energy going downhill that you put in going uphill. In footnote 1 Tony suggests 1.5 kWh per 1000 feet elevation gain and perhaps half that recovered for elevation loss. However, bear in mind that at very cold battery temperatures, <10ºF, regen tends to be limited, which reduces the amount of energy that can be recaptured (you wouldn't ordinarily see battery temperatures this low with your usage pattern). If you can coast safely you can turn some of that potential energy into kinetic energy, although it is also subject to drag losses.

• Using the heater, even the new heat pump on the 2013 SV/SL models, will be a big hit to efficiency and range. However, heater use can be mitigated by preheating while plugged-in, defogging the windshield with unheated air when practical, and using the seat and steering wheel heaters to reduce the need for cabin heat*. And being dressed appropriately for winter, of course.

• The biggest hit to range would be driving on snow, in all its myriad forms. That's hard to quantify because it is so variable. A related efficiency loss would be if you use snow tires: they have a lot more rolling resistance than the stock low rolling resistance tires. Drop your numbers by 5-10% if using snow tires on dry pavement. By the way, the LEAF makes a fine snow car due to front wheel drive, a fairly heavy weight with even distribution, and a low center of gravity.

FWIW, my mileage calculations over the last two winters:

Bear in mind that much of my mileage is at slower speeds and 60 mph is the maximum I ever drive (no freeways or multi-lane highways here), I drive a lot of steep hills by necessity, and I'm a pretty good "hypermiler". Also, I drive relatively little on snow here in sunny Colorado because I either wait until it melts, or it is plowed and sanded, or I take my Jeep. So my numbers will look better than those of someone who drives a lot in real winter conditions or someone who drives at high speeds in very cold weather.

In short, "it's complicated". The range of a LEAF in winter might be reduced by one third to a half of the range in summer over the same routes. [By the way, my parents lived next to Lake Coeur d'Alene for many years.]


*There has been some discussion in another thread about dissatisfaction with the seat and steering wheel heaters. So far as I can tell, it is being expressed by those attempting to test them in balmy temperatures. In my 2012 LEAF they work very well and are quite pleasant to use in cold (20s-40s) to very cold (<20s) temperatures; I don't mind the cycling of the thermostats at all. Perhaps Nissan has changed the design or specs on the 2013s but I have my doubts about that.

 

[Petecomp1]

.
(Not so) Stupid Quality Issue:
* Within minutes of driving off the dealer's lot, increased the cabin fan speed - experienced a loud sound, like a turbo-prop aircraft engine, and heavy vibration in the front console and floorboard.
* After a lot of stripping by the dealer the next day, a hood insulation plastic fastener was found hanging off the blower impeller.
* Hence, the QuakingLeaf username.

Mine had the exact same issue with cabin fan - sounded like a 747 on takeoff roll at high speed. The hood insulation flap was attached to the service report, a 4" square piece of transparent (albeit greasy) plastic film.
My dealer's mechanic must have known all about it because no lengthy troubleshooting was needed; he fixed it in less than 1/2 hour.

 

[LEAFfan]

Colder temps will reduce the range, but it does not affect Performance, just capacity. You can be down 50% capacity and you will still have the same performance as 100% capacity.

Not necessarily. At cold temperatures the LEAF can be power limited and is definitely regen limited.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "performance". Cold temperatures don't just limit battery capacity, they increase air resistance due to the increased density of air at cold temperatures and they increase rolling resistance due to cold tires and cold gear/bearing lubrication. I would consider that reduced performance.

For me those are the biggest hits to my cold weather range because my garaged car battery stays fairly warm from charging and being driven. Those who park outside might find cold battery capacity a bigger factor in cold weather range.

The flip-side of cold air density is that the greatly reduced density of hot air leads to reduced drag and increased mileage efficiency and range, as you have demonstrated. Warm humid air is the least dense, cold dry air is the most dense. And the difference in range can be large from that factor alone.

By performance, I was replying about motor performance when the pack has lost capacity. It still will give 80kWs.

 

[RWatkins]

Curious how much of a performance hit you get in winter. My situation here in north Idaho is similar to yours with an insulated garage, mountain inclines (not as much as yours), snow, packed snow, slush and ice in that order.

We're still working to sell our house before moving forward on a Leaf, but it's good to get real world experience regarding winter driving before buying. The garage ranges from 55-60 degrees most the time with occasional drops to 40-50 degrees. Our longest time out in the cold weather is 5-6 hours.
Thanks in advance for your input.

First, "performance" could be either efficiency (miles/kWh) or range. Efficiency affects range, as does battery capacity. Battery capacity is affected by temperature and losses due to degradation (age, heat, cycles).

• With your garage situation you will lose relatively little range due to battery temperature. Even if your car is stored at 50ºF the battery will be somewhat warmer than that due to charging. I'll guess it would be 54º. If you look at Tony Williams' Range Chart, footnote 3 suggests a loss of about 4% battery capacity at that temperature versus 70º.

• The hit to range from cold air depends on speed. Below 35 mph it would be fairly small. At freeway speeds it would be significant. If cold air caused a 12% increase in drag and air resistance was 60% of the power used to move the car, then driving efficiency and range would be decreased by about 7% on dry pavement. You can get an idea of drag numbers due to cold from my Air density and temperature thread.

• Hills are also a problem because you don't get back all the energy going downhill that you put in going uphill. In footnote 1 Tony suggests 1.5 kWh per 1000 feet elevation gain and perhaps half that recovered for elevation loss. However, bear in mind that at very cold battery temperatures, <10ºF, regen tends to be limited, which reduces the amount of energy that can be recaptured (you wouldn't ordinarily see battery temperatures this low with your usage pattern). If you can coast safely you can turn some of that potential energy into kinetic energy, although it is also subject to drag losses.

• Using the heater, even the new heat pump on the 2013 SV/SL models, will be a big hit to efficiency and range. However, heater use can be mitigated by preheating while plugged-in, defogging the windshield with unheated air when practical, and using the seat and steering wheel heaters to reduce the need for cabin heat*. And being dressed appropriately for winter, of course.

• The biggest hit to range would be driving on snow, in all its myriad forms. That's hard to quantify because it is so variable. A related efficiency loss would be if you use snow tires: they have a lot more rolling resistance than the stock low rolling resistance tires. Drop your numbers by 5-10% if using snow tires on dry pavement. By the way, the LEAF makes a fine snow car due to front wheel drive, a fairly heavy weight with even distribution, and a low center of gravity.

FWIW, my mileage calculations over the last two winters:

Bear in mind that much of my mileage is at slower speeds and 60 mph is the maximum I ever drive (no freeways or multi-lane highways here), I drive a lot of steep hills by necessity, and I'm a pretty good "hypermiler". Also, I drive relatively little on snow here in sunny Colorado because I either wait until it melts, or it is plowed and sanded, or I take my Jeep. So my numbers will look better than those of someone who drives a lot in real winter conditions or someone who drives at high speeds in very cold weather.

In short, "it's complicated". The range of a LEAF in winter might be reduced by one third to a half of the range in summer over the same routes. [By the way, my parents lived next to Lake Coeur d'Alene for many years.]


*There has been some discussion in another thread about dissatisfaction with the seat and steering wheel heaters. So far as I can tell, it is being expressed by those attempting to test them in balmy temperatures. In my 2012 LEAF they work very well and are quite pleasant to use in cold (20s-40s) to very cold (<20s) temperatures; I don't mind the cycling of the thermostats at all. Perhaps Nissan has changed the design or specs on the 2013s but I have my doubts about that.

Thanks for your thorough reply. I found it very helpful. And I thought I remembered you mentioning being in north Idaho before.

Currently we live within a few miles from Silverwood Theme Park and most of our driving is gentle downslope to Cd'A or Spokane Valley with a gentle increasing grade on the way home. Total typical maximum round trip is once a week of about 75 miles. There are some 120v plugs in the parking lot so I'm hoping to plug in when we arrive and preheat for return. I think we're going to enjoy the heated seats and steering wheel.

As you can imagine there isn't much EV infrastructure support here at this time, but our needs are quite modest. We're not speeders and avoid the freeway virtually all the time - we get there in the same time, sometimes less and we're much less stressed. Our max speed is 65 and it only lasts for several miles. Typically we're driving 45-55.

No steep hills and since I'm disabled and my wife is not working we generally can afford to wait for the roads to be cleared after a snowstorm. Just a 1-mile dirt/gravel road to get out to the paved and pretty well maintained county road. We've found over 15 years here that a good set of All-Season tires have sufficed and never really found a need for snow tires. Being able to wait for roads to be cleared has helped.

When we sell, we'll shorten the distance on our longest trips by about 25 miles round trip. All roads will be paved and generally have less snow. Our altitude will drop some and if it's going to snow/rain, it tends to start snowing just a few miles south of our current location and can increase dramatically as you head north. I think we'll be fine.

Thanks for sharing the valuable information. It was much appreciated.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Thanks for your thorough reply. I found it very helpful. And I thought I remembered you mentioning being in north Idaho before.

Currently we live within a few miles from Silverwood Theme Park and most of our driving is gentle downslope to Cd'A or Spokane Valley with a gentle increasing grade on the way home. Total typical maximum round trip is once a week of about 75 miles. There are some 120v plugs in the parking lot so I'm hoping to plug in when we arrive and preheat for return. I think we're going to enjoy the heated seats and steering wheel.

As you can imagine there isn't much EV infrastructure support here at this time, but our needs are quite modest. We're not speeders and avoid the freeway virtually all the time - we get there in the same time, sometimes less and we're much less stressed. Our max speed is 65 and it only lasts for several miles. Typically we're driving 45-55.

No steep hills and since I'm disabled and my wife is not working we generally can afford to wait for the roads to be cleared after a snowstorm. Just a 1-mile dirt/gravel road to get out to the paved and pretty well maintained county road. We've found over 15 years here that a good set of All-Season tires have sufficed and never really found a need for snow tires. Being able to wait for roads to be cleared has helped.

When we sell, we'll shorten the distance on our longest trips by about 25 miles round trip. All roads will be paved and generally have less snow. Our altitude will drop some and if it's going to snow/rain, it tends to start snowing just a few miles south of our current location and can increase dramatically as you head north. I think we'll be fine.

Thanks for sharing the valuable information. It was much appreciated.

I visited Silverwood with family two years ago — my niece is a fan of theme parks. Also did a boat trip across the lake and up the St. Joe River. It was all part of a celebration of my parents' 60th anniversary.

You would find it difficult to do 75 miles in winter without interim charging — 120 V plugs will be fine — in a couple of years as the battery degrades. Once you move, however, it appears that the LEAF will work well for you: fifty miles under the conditions you describe is easy. As an experienced snow driver, just waiting for the roads to be plowed ought to be sufficient to let you drive the LEAF with the stock tires. You might want to carry chains in case road conditions change unexpectedly. As I said before, the LEAF is fine in snow for a 2WD car.

Have fun with the LEAF, I certainly have!

 

[RWatkins]

I visited Silverwood with family two years ago — my niece is a fan of theme parks. Also did a boat trip across the lake and up the St. Joe River. It was all part of a celebration of my parents' 60th anniversary.

You would find it difficult to do 75 miles in winter without interim charging — 120 V plugs will be fine — in a couple of years as the battery degrades. Once you move, however, it appears that the LEAF will work well for you: fifty miles under the conditions you describe is easy. As an experienced snow driver, just waiting for the roads to be plowed ought to be sufficient to let you drive the LEAF with the stock tires. You might want to carry chains in case road conditions change unexpectedly. As I said before, the LEAF is fine in snow for a 2WD car.

Have fun with the LEAF, I certainly have!

I figured I would be fine with the range limitations, even in winter, but have hoped this will be our primary ("eventually only?") car. It needs to be something my wife can have confidence in too. Initially, possibly long term, I plan to lease at the best rate I can and have ICE car savings pay for most of it. We have quite low electricity costs here in the Northwest. I'm looking into solar grid tie and battery backup for the new house to make use of the free electricity after the the system amortizes. We only drive 2 or 3 days a week and not very far.

Our current vehicles are a '90 Voyager (just retired last year due to an estimated $2,500 transmission replacement) and a '99 Plymouth Breeze my wife loves to drive. Both, as you know, are FWD, so I expect the LEAF will actually be better with winter weather traction than what we've been driving here for 15 years. We have a set of chains for the Breeze, but have never used them.

Cd'A gas prices are pretty good too. And leveraging our Fred Meyer rewards card program, I was able to save $1/gallon on the maximum amount allowed (35) just before an extended road trip to SW Oregon last month. The Breeze only holds 16 so we had the rest waiting for us on return. We'll drive 6 weeks and a fair number of miles before stopping at the gas station to fill up again. I just don't want to deal with the hassle, and I look forward to an easier, cleaner and less expensive drive in the future. Until battery range improves enough for our annual longer trips, we'll use the Breeze until it is financially better to rent a suitable hybrid for those 2 weeks.

Also, I got and installed an Ultraguage a couple weeks before our trip. This gave us a pretty good look at our driving efficiency in real-time (averaged about 34 MPG round trip, excluding local driving at the destination). And I got us a little closer to what we'll have in a LEAF: For several months, via an old smart phone, I've gotten my wife aware of, and more comfortable with, GPS and the benefits it can provide.

Now it is "continue to be patient and wait" for other things to happen (getting the house ready for sale, etc.), trying to keep up with current LEAF and other EV news, and make preparations for an EV at our new home.

Thanks again for sharing and explaining.