New owner & charging question

[jjeff]

12 gauge wiring can provide 20 amps, but as the maximum load, not the maximum sustained load. That gauge wiring would require a 16 amp EVSE, not 20 amp.

I agree, I thought I had mentioned the cheap portable L2 EVSEs(like the Ebusbar) which are 16a and I was thinking of using on a 20a circuit, yes 20a circuit=16a continuous. Clipper Creek makes it easy as their model numbers indicate circuit required not output current, therefore if you have a 20a circuit then get the ClipperCreek with the 20 in it's model number

AntroX-True while 12 gauge wiring may be able to support 20a, something like a EVSE is rated as continuous duty and therefore subject to the 80% rule. Extension cords being freestanding and not in a wall(where they could trap heat) are generally rated 20a for 12g and 15a for 14 gauge. Breakers also can be an issue, a 20a breaker will get VERY warm and possibly trip running 20a continuous, they do make continuous rated breakers but they are very rare and by far not the norm. I regularly run 19a on a 20a breaker and the breaker itself gets very warm, I only do this for an hour or so and the wiring feeding the outlet is in metal conduit, lastly I do it with the breaker panel door open to dissipate the heat but it's not really a good practice to overheat a breaker in this manner Always better to error on the side of caution, especially for wiring built into the wall, don't want that to get hot and potentially burn down your house :shock:

 

[brian0123]

The GE is $399 at Home Depot and in stock at my local store. I bet the $520 ones on Amazon are 3rd party sellers le re-selling from Home Depot, then when a direct supplier starts selling the price drops back to $399.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-EV-Charger-Indoor-Outdoor-Level-2-DuraStation-Wall-Mount-with-18-ft-Cord-EVDSWGH-CP01/205808537

Edit: I don't think it's plug in, it's hard wired. That plus only the 18' cord and I don't think I'd go for this one.

This is the charger I have (bought from HD) and love it. It's durable and gets the job done. I have it mounted outside on the side of the garage and highly recommend it. The only annoying thing about it is that when not charging, there's a green light that blinks every couple of seconds.

 

[GrowingTrees]

An opinion (nothing worse than an unsolicited opinion!) & a follow-up to the original post.

*Opinion* I'm not a fan of abnormally warm breakers and/or wiring; is usually a sign that something is not right, typically undersized branch circuits. I do infrared imaging of industrial electrical equipment/Data Centers & any breaker/wiring/branch circuits that have a higher temperature or DeltaT of the rest of the circuits will usually warrant further investigation & typically end up in subsequent upgrades.

*Follow-up* Back to the original question/my 1st post. I purchased the Ebusbar (thank-you Jeff!) & it is working great, thought I was going to have to spend part of a valuable weekend day installing a new receptacle. While in the garage & staring at the space on the wall/trying to envision everything it would take to install this coming Saturday, it hit me that I can use our existing outside house generators L14-20P receptacle & wouldn't have to spend 4-6 hours installing a receptacle, could do it in 15 minutes with an adapter plug. Quick trip to Home Depot, got a 20" chunk of 12awg/3 conductor SO cord, a L14-20P & a L6-20P (most of you already know, but for those that don't; the P of the L14-20P means it's a male plug, the R is a female receptacle). Wired the L14-20P used the neutral wire versus the ground (as their is no house/earth ground in the Leaf's receptacle) & wired it to the L6-20P, plugged the Ebusbar into the adapter plug via 220/240V, plugged into receptacle & plugged into the Leaf & voila 3kW charging. Put the original/factory 120V trickle charger back into the car (for overnight/hotel stays etc.). The Ebusbar will be able to handle most/99% of my charging situations, but next step will be to install a 6kW charger & take advantage of the $1k tax credit & another option added to the house, which again I will be able to use my existing L14-20 receptacle. I'm a preparedness freak so will also put together an adapter cable (male to female) so I can plug my Leaf directly into my generator just in case. Also got the Aomaso OBD2 Bluetooth dongle & the Leaf Spy app so can get all of my Leaf's information not available through the Nissan apps. Thanks all for your advise & experience!

 

[LeftieBiker]

If I understand correctly, you used a generator to house plug that is always live? Connections like that should be Off whenever the main power line breaker going into the house is On. Otherwise you risk energizing the power line near your house during an outage if you forget to turn off the main breaker (or you aren't home to do it and someone else does it without knowing), thus endangering power utility line workers. If it's a male connector (as they usually are) then it's also a big risk to children. I have an either/or interlock on my main panel that lets me feed it with the main utility line breaker OR the generator feed breaker, but both can't be On at the same time.

 

[jjeff]

Agree with Leftie, you don't want to be backfeeding through your main breaker and having an energized male plug is also a recipe for trouble. What I've done, and it's somewhat sketchy too, is I have a L14-30r on the outside of my house. Normally it's where I can plug my EVSE into, but during a power outage I turn off the house's main breaker and the breaker feeding my outside L14-30r(outlet), next I take my 30a 240v generator(which also has a L14-30r) and with a special cord I made that has a L14-30p on both ends, hook my generator up to the wall outlet. I start the generator and lastly turn on the breaker feeding the outside L14-30r(outlet).
Wala, power to the whole house, albeit 30a max. The trickiest part is knowing when the utility power is restored, when it is I flip the L14-30r breaker off, turn the generator off, unplug the male/male plug, flip the L14-30r breaker back on and finally turn the main breaker back on.
It's kind of a hokey setup and other than remembering to turn the main breaker off my biggest concern is the male/male cord and making sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands, don't want someone accidentally plugging it into a live L14-30r and making the other male end live although I do have a unused L14-30r that I always keep plugged into one side of the male/male cord for just such accidents.
I wouldn't want my wife or kids doing the hookups, at least not with me on the phone but I feel perfectly comfortable doing it and it's nice having full power even when the rest of the neighborhood is dark.
Oh lastly before hooking up the generator I flip off the breakers to any high current draw devices, electric stove and home AC. Don't want anyone turning those on when we only have 30a to work with

GrowingTrees, glad your Ebusbar EVSE is working good, I've never had an issue with mine going on 6 months, a nice cheap little EVSE IMO. Did you also cut off the Ebusbar's old dryer plug(10-30p) and install your L6-20p? Personally I went with the L6-30p as I also have a 30a EVSE and didn't want to have another standard to contend with, but I guess if all you ever needed was 20a the L6-20 would be the more logical choice, it was what EVSEupgrade was originally using before they switched to the L6-30p standard for all their upgrades.

 

[GrowingTrees]

Fully agree Leftie & Jeff no bueno to light anybody by a rogue running generator. Life lesson #364: Don't kill anybody when they are just trying to do their jobs. My system has a nice Siemens automatic interlocking system, but also has a Auto/manual keyed bypass switch. As my 220/240V receptacle is primarily used as a plugin for my welders as we have a good grid, all underground & haven't had to use my generator in the past +10 years, it sits in storage, I simply flip it into manual mode & am charging my Leaf & can switch if off anytime by flipping a switch. Another nice thing with the Siemens system is that it doesn't use a big clunky arcing contactor, it uses large SCR's to switch, so anytime it switches there is barely a ripple on the wave.

Yeah Jeff, clipped the Ebusbar original plug & put in the L6-20P. My system is rated for 30A has all #10AWG, but due to the size of my panels breaker feeder we had to put in 20A breakers to get it permitted. Next step will be when I get the 6kW station will be to upgrade the panel breaker & replace all of the 20 hardware to 30amps & get it re-inspected, which will probably be next spring.

 

[oleviking]

Wow, all this electrical talk is mind numbing for a guy who is electrically challenged. Is there anywhere in the forum where all this is explained for dummies?

 

[oleviking]

Wow, all this electrical talk is mind numbing for a guy who is electrically challenged. Is there anywhere in the forum where all these terms are explained for us dummies?

 

[LeftieBiker]

Wow, all this electrical talk is mind numbing for a guy who is electrically challenged. Is there anywhere in the forum where all this is explained for dummies?

Your best bet is to get a basic book that explains household wiring. I did some wiring work with an electrician and learned a lot, but I learned even more from one of those books from the library. People who explain things while doing them sometimes leave out important info, and/or pass on bad practices.

 

[oleviking]

I was also talking about all the reading and such that you get from leaf spy related to the Leaf, like what is a tab?

 

[oleviking]

I am thinking about installing a 240 v circuit in the garage with a dryer plug and then using an adapter to connect the charger to that, or is it better to mount a permanent station, hard wired to the 240 v circuit. Probably wont use much as there is a Nissan dealer with QC less than a mile away.

 

[GerryAZ]

If you are installing a new circuit, a 50-ampere circuit with NEMA 14-50 receptacle would be more versatile. A dryer circuit is typically only rated for 30 amperes with a NEMA 14-30 receptacle. If your car has a 6 kW onboard charger, you need a 30-ampere or higher EVSE to charge at maximum rate. A 30-ampere EVSE requires a 40-ampere circuit and a 40-ampere EVSE requires a 50-ampere circuit (continuous load cannot exceed 80% of circuit rating). If you have the EVSE or at least literature for the one you plan to buy, your electrician can install an appropriate circuit for you.

Gerry

 

[jjeff]

I am thinking about installing a 240 v circuit in the garage with a dryer plug and then using an adapter to connect the charger to that, or is it better to mount a permanent station, hard wired to the 240 v circuit. Probably wont use much as there is a Nissan dealer with QC less than a mile away.

It depends on how much you want to spend and what charging speed your ok with. Your cheapest option would be ~$300 for a 16a 240v EVSE which would only require 12gauge wire(although 10 gauge would probably give you slightly better efficiency) and a 20a 240v plug.
If you wanted faster charging, future proofing or a name brand EVSE expect to pay $500+ for the EVSE and you'd need a 30a plug and wiring for a 24a EVSE and to take full advantage of your car's built in charger you'd need a 30a EVSE and 40a wiring, breaker and plug(although you'd probably end up with a 14-50 plug as already mentioned as the 14-50 is kind of the EV standard for high current applications.
I prefer a more portable EVSE and plug in applications but the choice is yours, portable and plug in just gives you more flexibility down the road.

 

[SurfHawk]

So to summarize for a guy like me without 240V in his garage and only one slot open in his 100A panel, this is what I'm going to ask my electrician for quotes on to decide which route to go:

1) 240V 50A circuit wired to garage with a NEMA 14-50R plug for JuiceBox or hard wired to Durastation. Could get full 27.5 charging out of car, but might cost way too much if my panel can't handle it and I need to upgrade the panel.

2) 240V 20A circuit to garage (or re-purposed from existing outlet wiring) and a NEMA-30P plug for the Ebusbar 16A charger.

Does that about sum it up right? Meeting the electrician tonight and making sure I'm telling him the right stuff.

 

[jjeff]

So to summarize for a guy like me without 240V in his garage and only one slot open in his 100A panel, this is what I'm going to ask my electrician for quotes on to decide which route to go:

1) 240V 50A circuit wired to garage with a NEMA 14-50R plug for JuiceBox or hard wired to Durastation. Could get full 27.5 charging out of car, but might cost way too much if my panel can't handle it and I need to upgrade the panel.

2) 240V 20A circuit to garage (or re-purposed from existing outlet wiring) and a NEMA-30P plug for the Ebusbar 16A charger.

Does that about sum it up right? Meeting the electrician tonight and making sure I'm telling him the right stuff.

Yes but he might balk at running a 20a circuit to a 30a(10-30r that the Ebusbar takes) outlet. If thats the case then you'll want a 30a circuit(30a breaker and #10 wire) to the 10-30r outlet. The Ebusbar will be fine on a 30a circuit but will only draw 16a. Also the advantage of going that route is it would allow you to purchase and use a larger EVSE, one that goes up to 24a, if you ever want to down the line.

Personally I don't like the 10-30p plug that comes on the Ebusbar, it's an obsolete standard(although still in use in millions of dryers which is why I believe Ebusbar used it). It lacks a true ground although does have a neutral ground and does work for EVSE use. I instead cut off the 10-30p and wired on a L6-30p on my Ebusbar and it's what I used for an outlet. The L6-30r is a locking outlet and has 2 hots and a ground, a better fit for EVSEs IMO. With the L6-30 standard you can also buy off the shelf adapters to go it to a standard 120v household outlet, something with the 10-30p you'd have to make yourself and even then would be a bit of a kludge adapter. If you supply the L6-30p(plug) I'm sure the electrician wouldn't have a problem wiring it to the Ebusbar(cutting off the 10-30 first). Amazon sells L6-30p(plugs) starting ~$10 for decent plugs, expect to pay $30+ for a L6-30p at Home Depot or a similar hardware type store, even more from a wholesale electrical supplier. If your going to order your Ebusbar from Amazon personally I'd order a L6-30p and L6-30r(outlet for the electrician) at the same time. Hopefully he'll be OK with this, some shops may want to supply such things themselves so they can charge you a premium on getting the parts but again if they do expect to pay many times what Amazon charges for very similar parts.

 

[SurfHawk]

Good advice jjeff. What if the only room my panel has left is a 20A breaker, and he doesn't want to use an L6-30R on that? Could he use a x-20R receptacle and cutoff the Ebusbar plug to match? If so, which -20R would be best, 6-20, 14-20 or 10-20?

 

[LeftieBiker]

What if the only room my panel has left is a 20A breaker, and he doesn't want to use an L6-30R on that?

A 20 amp 240 volt breaker should be the same physical size as a 30 amp 240 breaker. They both need to occupy two slots in the panel to provide 240 volts. There are mini (half sized) breakers available that can be used to free up two slots where there is only one now.

 

[SurfHawk]

I hate to keep hijacking GrowingTrees's thread, but since I already have....

Electrician came tonight and said he can run a 50A circuit to my garage with my existing 100A panel that I thought was jam packed. At first he thought the existing 3/4" conduit was too small for 6AWG wire, and he could only run a 40A circuit with 8AWG without having to tear into some drywall and put in 1" conduit. He later texted and said he could run it in that conduit, so now I only have to wait to see how steep the price tag is (EDIT: $750). I was hoping for under $500 but glad it ain't $1,000.

Only other choice is if I want to put the EVSE on the inside of the garage, or the outside. Outside makes sense for access, but I don't want someone stealing my EVSE and I want it plugged into a 10-50R. I plan to use either the JuiceBox or have the electrician put a 14-50P plug on the GE DuraStation. I could install the EVSE on the inside of the garage route the cable under the garage door and spooled up on the outside of the house, kind of like I do now with the trickle charger.

 

[jjeff]

I hate to keep hijacking GrowingTrees's thread, but since I already have....

Electrician came tonight and said he can run a 50A circuit to my garage with my existing 100A panel that I thought was jam packed. At first he thought the existing 3/4" conduit was too small for 6AWG wire, and he could only run a 40A circuit with 8AWG without having to tear into some drywall and put in 1" conduit. He later texted and said he could run it in that conduit, so now I only have to wait to see how steep the price tag is (EDIT: $750). I was hoping for under $500 but glad it ain't $1,000.

Only other choice is if I want to put the EVSE on the inside of the garage, or the outside. Outside makes sense for access, but I don't want someone stealing my EVSE and I want it plugged into a 10-50R. I plan to use either the JuiceBox or have the electrician put a 14-50P plug on the GE DuraStation. I could install the EVSE on the inside of the garage route the cable under the garage door and spooled up on the outside of the house, kind of like I do now with the trickle charger.

Remember you should be able to get back some of that money if you file taxes by taking advantage of the EVSE tax credit, I did and it helped a bit. Unless your dead set with the 50a circuit or really want to future proof your setup, I'd bet going with a 30 or even 20a circuit would be a fair bit cheaper. If you wanted to go with a 20a setup(#12 wire) then for the outlet you'd want a 6-20r or even a L6-20r(locking outlet). Some EVSEs already come with the 6-20p, if you wanted the L6-20r you'd probably have to wire on the matching L6-20p which should cost under $20.
Again if you wanted to get even more amperage then a 30a circuit with #10 wire and the L6-30r or even the Ebusbar's 10-30 would work for not only the 16a Ebusbar but also allow you up to 24a(just shy of your Leaf's max of 27.5a) using something like a Juicebox or ClipperCreek to mention a few options that can be used for 24a. In this case you don't want a fixed 30a EVSE as 27.5a is a bit much for continuous use on a 30a circuit.
If you went with the 50a setup you'd probably never have to redo things but IMO you'd probably never really use that much either. Maybe someday we'll see 50a chargers in cars but if anything I see things going the other way, that is cheaper smaller chargers being built in cars, our Leafs 27.5a is pretty much top of the line(for more affordable cars anyway). Even the Bolt with it's 200+ mile range battery isn't using a built in charger more than our Leaf and I'd be surprised if the Tesla model 3 did either but I don't know for sure. The model S did but the model S is in a different class and priced accordingly.

 

[powersurge]

Yes, you should check your state's or federal income tax deductions for EV charging hardware improvements.... I live in NY. NY will refund 50% of the cost of the EVSE and electrical modifications and installation to a maximum of $2000.

My electrician rewired the garage for 240 volts AND installed my EVSE for a total of $2000. I got back a refund of $1000 for this at the end of the year... If you can get the government to pay for 1/2 of the cost, get the best installation possible and never have any more worries.....