New Leaf 2016 SL, Bad Battery?

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drees said:
QCing heats up the pack significantly
That's not necessarily a bad thing. If the outside air temp is 50 or lower, I haven't seen the battery temp go above the 70's which IMO is the perfect temp for the battery.

Of course you don't QC when it's 80-100+ degrees unless you really need it.

Would it actually degrade more if you QC to only 70 degrees?
 
LeafMuranoDriver said:
drees said:
QCing heats up the pack significantly
That's not necessarily a bad thing. If the outside air temp is 50 or lower, I haven't seen the battery temp go above the 70's which IMO is the perfect temp for the battery.

Of course you don't QC when it's 80-100+ degrees unless you really need it.

Would it actually degrade more if you QC to only 70 degrees?

today I saw one of the greatest temp rises on a QC. Started with batt temps ranging from 42-44º and ended up in the 70's! First time I have seen 5 temp bars in probably a month! I did (quite surprisingly) start the charge at full speed about 38 KW on an NRG with it ending around 28 KW so guessing that was part of it but I had charged on the same station with warmer batteries and it "halved" me starting at 50 Amps instead of near 100 and I went from 4 temp bars to 4 temp bars.

In retrospect, I think radiant heat contributed quite a bit. It was still cold (27º) but very bright Sun. Contrast that to the charge last week with temp 40º but cloudy and raining. Batt temps after 30 mins only got to the mid to upper 60's
 
LeafMuranoDriver said:
Would it actually degrade more if you QC to only 70 degrees?
Yes. The warmer the pack is, the faster it loses capacity. Sure if the pack is warmer, it's also more efficient and you get more regen capability. But that doesn't mean that the pack does lose capacity faster. Arrenhious' equation roughly simulates the rate of capacity loss for lithium batteries which states that for every 10C rise in temperature, you double the rate of capacity loss.
 
drees said:
LeafMuranoDriver said:
Would it actually degrade more if you QC to only 70 degrees?
Yes. The warmer the pack is, the faster it loses capacity. Sure if the pack is warmer, it's also more efficient and you get more regen capability. But that doesn't mean that the pack does lose capacity faster. Arrenhious' equation roughly simulates the rate of capacity loss for lithium batteries which states that for every 10C rise in temperature, you double the rate of capacity loss.

I would think the rate is pretty low at 70º but then again, even I don't live in a climate that moderate. What is the ideal temp? isn't like the low 60's? so not really that far from ideal
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
I would think the rate is pretty low at 70º but then again, even I don't live in a climate that moderate. What is the ideal temp? isn't like the low 60's? so not really that far from ideal
The colder the better to minimize capacity loss, just keep it above the temp the electrolyte freezes.

Rate of capacity loss at 70F battery temps isn't bad, if you could limit temps to 70F you might get 8-10 years before dropping below 70%. But IMO that's still too much capacity loss, really should be half that at 8-10 years.
 
drees said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
I would think the rate is pretty low at 70º but then again, even I don't live in a climate that moderate. What is the ideal temp? isn't like the low 60's? so not really that far from ideal
The colder the better to minimize capacity loss, just keep it above the temp the electrolyte freezes.
Also, at cold temperatures lithium metal gets plated onto the electrodes during charging. I suspect this is why Nissan's BMS reprogram greatly reduces regeneration at cold temperatures.
 
LeafMuranoDriver said:
drees said:
QCing heats up the pack significantly
That's not necessarily a bad thing. If the outside air temp is 50 or lower, I haven't seen the battery temp go above the 70's which IMO is the perfect temp for the battery.

Of course you don't QC when it's 80-100+ degrees unless you really need it.

Would it actually degrade more if you QC to only 70 degrees?

Semi on topic..
I have taken a few long trips with my Leaf. 2016 SV. One trip to Albany NY in 80º weather.
I had to do 6 QC sessions to make that trip

I never exceeded 80% on any of the charges. 316 miles round trip done non stop. There was a a high pass by Vermont standards and many hills. All 50mph roads. I was testing the range as I might have needed to do the trip in the winter and I wanted to see what I had for margin in warmer weather. I ran the climate control the whole;e time as I would be in the cold.

The point is in those temps of course each QC warmed thew battery. The last one took it just short of the max on the temp gauge. It cooled down a bar or two on the way home. The health stats in LeafSpy went up. It was 94% when I started the trip and it went up to 96% and stayed.

I did another trip like that in cooler weather 450 miles in one day to Boston and back with a detour. Again 6 QC sessions. Outdoor temps were cool. In the high 50s and cooler at night. This time to get the max range I needed I ran the QC chargers to their 30 min limit in 4 of the 6 sessions. Again the battery temp went to within a bar of max. Again Health went up and stayed at 97% and has been there since. About a month and a half. That is the highest health reading I found since I got the car back in April. My cell balance Dif at 100% is usually arena 11mv. I've seen it asa high as 25mv after running the car to almost VLBW then QC to 50%.

I would call what I have a healthy hopefully normal representation of a 2016 30kWh battery. Time will tell. I plan to keep records from Leafspy at various time to see if this holds true.

So Does QC alone hurt the battery? I don't believe so. Time sitting at high charge in high temps has been proven to increase degradation. It seems that charging full then immediately driving does not.
So if you plan to use the charge right away then QC as needed. If you are parking then keep the charge low or slow.

I think the batteries will degrade at what ever rate they do. If we get a bad one the hopefully Nissan will honer the warrantee and make it right. In the OPs case I think they should replace which ever modules are bad. It is clear there are issues and the car does not get the advertised range.

My 2¢
 
gregn said:
LeafMuranoDriver said:
drees said:
QCing heats up the pack significantly
That's not necessarily a bad thing. If the outside air temp is 50 or lower, I haven't seen the battery temp go above the 70's which IMO is the perfect temp for the battery.

Of course you don't QC when it's 80-100+ degrees unless you really need it.

Would it actually degrade more if you QC to only 70 degrees?

Semi on topic..
I have taken a few long trips with my Leaf. 2016 SV. One trip to Albany NY in 80º weather.
I had to do 6 QC sessions to make that trip

I never exceeded 80% on any of the charges. 316 miles round trip done non stop. There was a a high pass by Vermont standards and many hills. All 50mph roads. I was testing the range as I might have needed to do the trip in the winter and I wanted to see what I had for margin in warmer weather. I ran the climate control the whole;e time as I would be in the cold.

The point is in those temps of course each QC warmed thew battery. The last one took it just short of the max on the temp gauge. It cooled down a bar or two on the way home. The health stats in LeafSpy went up. It was 94% when I started the trip and it went up to 96% and stayed.

I did another trip like that in cooler weather 450 miles in one day to Boston and back with a detour. Again 6 QC sessions. Outdoor temps were cool. In the high 50s and cooler at night. This time to get the max range I needed I ran the QC chargers to their 30 min limit in 4 of the 6 sessions. Again the battery temp went to within a bar of max. Again Health went up and stayed at 97% and has been there since. About a month and a half. That is the highest health reading I found since I got the car back in April. My cell balance Dif at 100% is usually arena 11mv. I've seen it asa high as 25mv after running the car to almost VLBW then QC to 50%.

I would call what I have a healthy hopefully normal representation of a 2016 30kWh battery. Time will tell. I plan to keep records from Leafspy at various time to see if this holds true.

So Does QC alone hurt the battery? I don't believe so. Time sitting at high charge in high temps has been proven to increase degradation. It seems that charging full then immediately driving does not.
So if you plan to use the charge right away then QC as needed. If you are parking then keep the charge low or slow.

I think the batteries will degrade at what ever rate they do. If we get a bad one the hopefully Nissan will honer the warrantee and make it right. In the OPs case I think they should replace which ever modules are bad. It is clear there are issues and the car does not get the advertised range.

My 2¢

good question but really cannot be answered until we determine how fast QC needs to be to be considered a "fast charge." The charger even if 50 KW or 2C only stays at that speed for a short period of time, maybe to 50% on 24 kwh packs (I actually never saw that. closer to 40% for me) then it drops rapidly from there.

Now the 30 kwh charging profile is much steeper and I am seeing near full speed into the 70% SOC range. This is creating a lot of heat. I charged from 7% to 75% the other day with ambient at 27º and pack temps rose from mid 40's to mid 70's. But the pack also strongly indicates that is cools off much faster than my 24 kwh pack.

the weather and temps vary a lot and we are in the middle of our coldest Winter in at least decade or longer but I have QC'd 3 times in a day only to see my pack temps back to near ambient garage temps the very next morning. IOW; the pack normalizes in less than 24 hours. My 24 kwh pack took at least 36 hours in Winter, as much as 4 days in Summer to normalize.

now I have only had this car in cooler weather (picked up Veteran's Day) so it remains to see how well the pack does in the heat of Summer but so far, very good.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
gregn said:
LeafMuranoDriver said:
That's not necessarily a bad thing. If the outside air temp is 50 or lower, I haven't seen the battery temp go above the 70's which IMO is the perfect temp for the battery.

Of course you don't QC when it's 80-100+ degrees unless you really need it.

Would it actually degrade more if you QC to only 70 degrees?

Semi on topic..
I have taken a few long trips with my Leaf. 2016 SV. One trip to Albany NY in 80º weather.
I had to do 6 QC sessions to make that trip

I never exceeded 80% on any of the charges. 316 miles round trip done non stop. There was a a high pass by Vermont standards and many hills. All 50mph roads. I was testing the range as I might have needed to do the trip in the winter and I wanted to see what I had for margin in warmer weather. I ran the climate control the whole;e time as I would be in the cold.

The point is in those temps of course each QC warmed thew battery. The last one took it just short of the max on the temp gauge. It cooled down a bar or two on the way home. The health stats in LeafSpy went up. It was 94% when I started the trip and it went up to 96% and stayed.

I did another trip like that in cooler weather 450 miles in one day to Boston and back with a detour. Again 6 QC sessions. Outdoor temps were cool. In the high 50s and cooler at night. This time to get the max range I needed I ran the QC chargers to their 30 min limit in 4 of the 6 sessions. Again the battery temp went to within a bar of max. Again Health went up and stayed at 97% and has been there since. About a month and a half. That is the highest health reading I found since I got the car back in April. My cell balance Dif at 100% is usually arena 11mv. I've seen it asa high as 25mv after running the car to almost VLBW then QC to 50%.

I would call what I have a healthy hopefully normal representation of a 2016 30kWh battery. Time will tell. I plan to keep records from Leafspy at various time to see if this holds true.

So Does QC alone hurt the battery? I don't believe so. Time sitting at high charge in high temps has been proven to increase degradation. It seems that charging full then immediately driving does not.
So if you plan to use the charge right away then QC as needed. If you are parking then keep the charge low or slow.

I think the batteries will degrade at what ever rate they do. If we get a bad one the hopefully Nissan will honer the warrantee and make it right. In the OPs case I think they should replace which ever modules are bad. It is clear there are issues and the car does not get the advertised range.

My 2¢

good question but really cannot be answered until we determine how fast QC needs to be to be considered a "fast charge." The charger even if 50 KW or 2C only stays at that speed for a short period of time, maybe to 50% on 24 kwh packs (I actually never saw that. closer to 40% for me) then it drops rapidly from there.

Now the 30 kwh charging profile is much steeper and I am seeing near full speed into the 70% SOC range. This is creating a lot of heat. I charged from 7% to 75% the other day with ambient at 27º and pack temps rose from mid 40's to mid 70's. But the pack also strongly indicates that is cools off much faster than my 24 kwh pack.

the weather and temps vary a lot and we are in the middle of our coldest Winter in at least decade or longer but I have QC'd 3 times in a day only to see my pack temps back to near ambient garage temps the very next morning. The garage temp ranges between the mid to upper 40's thru out a very wide range of outdoor temps. IOW; the pack normalizes in less than 24 hours. My 24 kwh pack took at least 36 hours in Winter, as much as 4 days in Summer to normalize.

now I have only had this car in cooler weather (picked up Veteran's Day) so it remains to see how well the pack does in the heat of Summer but so far, very good.
 
gregn said:
I have taken a few long trips with my Leaf. 2016 SV. One trip to Albany NY in 80º weather.
I had to do 6 QC sessions to make that trip
Where do you find such a ready supply of quick chargers between Montpelier and Albany through the mountains on backroads?
 
Montpelier VT to Albany NY Charger list-- Check out the route with plug share for the exact locations and status.
here is a couple of links to a couple of images of the trip in plugshare;

With Hartford stop

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yfn5izyqhat6s94/IMG_0609.PNG?dl=0

Direct to Rutland

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sobcbbffsd1waco/IMG_0610.PNG?dl=0

All are DC locations on the eVgo network

Montpelier VT - Vermont State Employees Credit Union
I didn't use this one as I left home with a full charge
-
50 miles to Hartford
67 miles without the Hartford stop. The stop at Hartford adds miles but decreases the distance between charges
-
Hartford VT - Hampton Inn (White River Jct exit)
I didn't have to use this one but if it was cold I would have as the Montpelier-Rutland run is long for cold weather
-
56 miles
-
Rutland VT- Town parking
-
56 miles
-
Bennington VT- Town of Bennington Offices
-
40 miles
-
Albany NY- Hannaford Market

I just reversed the trip and made the same stops on the way back. It was actually 5 QC sessions now that I look at it.
There is a DC charger in Middlebury VT as well at the Northshire Bookstore, which is half way between Rutland and Bennington.
 
Interesting. I have almost nothing in my area between Binghamton, Syracuse, and Rochester NY. What are the pay rates and charging rates for these EVGo commercial quick charge sites?
 
Okay, so the final word from Nissan is that the battery cells with lower voltage are definitely causing the reduced range but that it is not outside of allowable parameters. They will not fix it. This is absolutely hilarious to me because they are basically saying that they can sell you a car with up to 30% reduced range compared to another brand new Leaf and that is not a manufacturing defect, just an allowable variance. That means that if you are unlucky, like me, you can pay for a 30 kWh Leaf that gets lower range than a 24 kWh model and they WILL NOT FIX IT.

I will never buy a Nissan again and I am looking around to see if any media outlets are interested in picking up my story. I am also reporting this to the EPA and the BBB. They should be subject to some kind of fines for selling cars that they know get 30% lower range than the EPA estimate.
 
Cryptizard said:
Okay, so the final word from Nissan is that the battery cells with lower voltage are definitely causing the reduced range but that it is not outside of allowable parameters. They will not fix it. This is absolutely hilarious to me because they are basically saying that they can sell you a car with up to 30% reduced range compared to another brand new Leaf and that is not a manufacturing defect, just an allowable variance. That means that if you are unlucky, like me, you can pay for a 30 kWh Leaf that gets lower range than a 24 kWh model and they WILL NOT FIX IT.

I will never buy a Nissan again and I am looking around to see if any media outlets are interested in picking up my story. I am also reporting this to the EPA and the BBB. They should be subject to some kind of fines for selling cars that they know get 30% lower range than the EPA estimate.

well that is crap. at this point what you need to do is force the issue and the easiest way is to run your SOC down as low as possible. the lower it is, the more stress on the weaker cells which means they will fail sooner. problem is that you run a pretty good chance of being stranded if you push it too far and with weak cells, "too far" might not be very far at all.
 
Sorry.
.
I see one mistake they made in the new packs is that they are now glued shut instead of just bolted together with a rubber gasket so now it is much more involved to open a pack just to replace a couple weak modules. It used to be an easy job to do in the shop but now it might require a new outer case every time if the metal seam is damaged when peeling the glue open.
 
sendler2112 said:
Interesting. I have almost nothing in my area between Binghamton, Syracuse, and Rochester NY. What are the pay rates and charging rates for these EVGo commercial quick charge sites?
We should probably move this to the local discussion but ego has a monthly plan I use. $14.95 / mo and 10¢/ min
I use the QC enough times per month to make the plan worth it. Otherwise it's $5.95/ session and 20¢/ min
Most of my sessions are 10/ min or so.
 
gregn said:
sendler2112 said:
Interesting. I have almost nothing in my area between Binghamton, Syracuse, and Rochester NY. What are the pay rates and charging rates for these EVGo commercial quick charge sites?
We should probably move this to the local discussion but ego has a monthly plan I use. $14.95 / mo and 10¢/ min
I use the QC enough times per month to make the plan worth it. Otherwise it's $5.95/ session and 20¢/ min
Most of my sessions are 10/ min or so.

well guess I am in a local offer only "available to LEAF owners" but the price was cut... guess that did not happen everywhere?
 
Cryptizard said:
I am pursuing the lemon law option but it is hard to find a lawyer that is willing to try to understand all the intricacies of electric cars. They basically ask, "did the dealer admit that something was wrong?" and when I say no they won't take the case. As far as the BBB, my dealer already has an F rating and they don't respond to complaints :-(

Now, in this situation a lawyer may not be your best or only option, although I'm NOT a lawyer, and I'm NOT giving legal advice, just advice that it is legal to write a sign, and picket in front of that BBB F-Rated dealership. My elderly (over 80-years-old) mom did this when she was unhappy with a business, that also was rated F by the BBB. If I recall, the sign read, "Be Aware, Rated F By the BBB" and walked on the sidewalk in front of the business.

This is OT, but the rest of her story:
She was there on several days, with no response. She continued to show up, with her sign. A regional manager came in, and solved the problem, offering my mom an exchange, but they would never follow through, the warranty on the replacement item changed, and the deal was out. So she went back to picketing. My mom stated that one day the manager came out, grabbed her sign, and she followed him around the back of the building where he threw the sign in the dumpster. The police were called, a spectacular Lakeland Police Department officer showed up, did an investigation, went back to the station at some point when his shift was ending and researched, and the manager ended up being charged with assault, and eventually went into a pre-trial anger management class, paid court costs, and $5 for the sign he destroyed. And they STILL let her stand out there picketing. The local newspaper did a story. She continued for TWO YEARS. Not every day, maybe once or twice a week at random times for an hour, and many times making sure to get there on Saturday for at least an hour. The business had a guy, "The Twirler" who stood out with a sign promoting the store, and it was comical how he tried to stand in front of her, he would swear and yell at her, and generally try to intimidate an elderly lady. I noticed another branch of the business at a different location, on an even busier street, and she showed up there. Within MINUTES, that manager was out talking to her, asked her to give him a chance to work on this and hold off picketing until he contacted her. On the way home, there was a call from the manager in Lakeland, stating that this problem would be fixed. So she ended up getting what they could have agreed to within minutes of seeing her, I'm amazed the place is still in business, and the Attorney General from a neighboring county wound up doing an investigation into this company, where it is costing them a huge amount of money, although I don't know if my mom's picketing had any link to that investigation.

Now, any business that has any sense can't have people picketing, and in some ways must work with somebody who shows up. However, having the "Rated F By the BBB" adds complete legitimacy, and can't be ignored or dismissed as one sole grump showing up. At a car dealership, one customer who sees the sign and turns away, or drives by, can cost them thousands of dollars. Now when it gets to be two, or ten, or twenty, or one hundred, it becomes mathematically impossible to ignore.
 
Call Nissan in Japan. Stop talking to the dealership or Nissan North America, because all they are thinking about is their margins on cars.

On another note, this issue is not isolated to Nissan. A close friend bought a Ford F150 with all the "bells and whistles", including a low hum when it is going at highway speeds. He tried pleading with them to fix it, but they said they could not replicate the sound. He went back for weeks and they kept on telling him nothing is wrong with the engine or drivetrain. He gave me a drive one day, and I innocently asked him what was that sound. He hit the roof! He got so pissed I thought I said something to offend him.

The next day, or so after, he went to the dealer with his attorney threatening to torch his truck in the parking lot, and the owner was there. They "lemoned" his truck and gave him a new one.
 
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