My new Leaf.... 10 miles and already down 5 bars.......

[TonyWilliams]

But his capacity bars eventually disappeared again, right?

12 to 11 to 10, firmware update, 12 to 11.

 

[MaxPower]

I have found that NiMH rechargeable batteries tend to give more capacity after you run them through a few charge/discharge cycles. I don't know how strongly this applies to the Nissan Leaf and its Li-ion chemistry. I would run it down to 2 bars or less and then recharge to 100%. Leave it on the charger for several hours after it reaches 100% so the charger can balance the internal cells. After a few cycles of this, you may see some improvement in capacity.

Perhaps the dealer can run the battery test that they do at the one year point in order to see if the battery has lost capacity?

 

[GreenPowerVideos]

Hi-

Don't jump to conclusions yet. You have to do some tests. Those batteries are very robust- despite what you hear from
a few loud owners in Phoenix. My car had the same treatment at the dealer in Memphis this summer. Mine is fine.
Here is what to know about lithium batteries:

Ideally, Lithium batts. like to be stored at 40% charge - at about 42F (if you were storing them ultra long-term)
They have no memory.. and don't need to be exercised by cycle-charging
They can happily be charged from any level -to any other level- at any time
They are capable of delivering TREMENDOUS instantaneous current
They will drop in capacity (temporarily) at temps under about 42F
You don't want to freeze them - at temps under 15F or so.
They heat up under use - more if you stomp on the accelerator.
If you drive really fast in temps over 100F, you could heat them up significantly
They don't like to be charged to 100% and left in storage -80% would be much better.
Deep-discharging them- or any battery- is risky. Try to go only down to one red bar of possible.
Lithium batts should be broken-in with gentle use for about 10 charge cycles.
For extended long-term life of the batts., set the charge timer for 80% and don't charge it when the temps are over 100F at night.
My rule is no charging over 84F and no driving over 100F.
The batts will discharge about 1 mile of range every two days if not used.
Charge them to whatever level you need when vacationing- so as to not drop under 20 miles range (or leave charger on it)

Designing any battery system is a complex game of trade-offs. The batts in the Leaf are top-shelf technology.
No other battery type could do what these do. As an early-adopter, you'll need to observe some operating rules to get
maximum life and performance out of the Leaf. Kansas City has perfect weather for a Leaf. Even down here in Hot Springs,
it is much hotter. Leave the charger on (timer) over-night if the temps will be under freezing. Set the timer to start at midnight
in summer- so the garage can cool off a bit. Set it with a start time, bur no end time- so whenever it gets to 80%, it will stop.
(depends on how much you ran them out the day before). If you have anything over 35 miles left, the 110V supplied charger will top them off by 9 am. Like all batteries, drawing less current from them DRASTICALLY increases their capacity. If you accelerate rapidly and drive over 55mph normally, you'll reduce your range significantly (like 60 miles). If you do the speed limit and go with the speed of other cars- and are driving 45 mph average, you can get over 90 miles. Use the energy info screen to check your current draw.
I can keep up with local traffic going into town on a 4-laner using only 10KW (one dot to the right of the center dot on the main display. This greatly extends range. If you are a lead-foot, this is not the car for you. It's all about hyper-miling and seeing how far you can go. On the miles per KWH display (main display behind the steering wheel), you need to be doing over 4.5.
Forget the "guess-o-meter" number of miles left display. Look at the charge bars next to it.. the fat ones. The top two will discharge in 10 miles or less..and each after that will get you about 7 miles.

That's it! Hope this helps.

Bob-Hot Springs :ugeek:

 

[ksnogas2112]

CD,
I'm heading to the Scout HQ at 435 and Wornall today around 1pm. I can meet you near there and check it out if that works for you. Otherwise I can meet on Sunday if you want to get together. PM if this will help you.

Which dealer sold you the car?

Tom

 

[hill]

I don't think the OP is talking capacity bars down . . . . but rather I'm guessing he's talking GOM bars dropping way fast.

 

[RegGuheert]

I don't think the OP is talking capacity bars down . . . . but rather I'm guessing he's talking GOM bars dropping way fast.

Agreed. But if you lose five (or four?) charge bars in 10 (or 12?) miles, then it seems there may be one or more missing capacity bars. I'm thinking he may have actually lost five charge bars, but when he went back to look, he counted down from the top capacity bar and thought only four were missing. Just a guess, but that could happen if one capacity bar was gone.

 

[Becky50]

Bob Hot Springs: Thanks for the concise information on the best practices for taking care of and using the battery. I hope to be driving my LEAF for 10 years covering round trips of 50 miles max. Looks as if I will be able to do that since I live in a mild climate.

 

[smkettner]

I don't think the OP is talking capacity bars down . . . . but rather I'm guessing he's talking GOM bars dropping way fast.

I thought some reported losing a bar each time the LEAF was restarted even if driven very little.

 

[cdherman]

OK, Update.

The small capacity bars still have 12 showing, 10 white and 2 red. The car was showing fully charged when I left the dealer, Randy Reed Nissan, yesterday. It is about 2 miles to home from there. Odometer was at 9

Over the course of the day yesterday, I made some short trips, nothing over 45 mph. Admitted, I lead footed it some at first, just to see what she has, but as the top bars started dropping fast, I went back to my usual style of driving, which is pretty sedate (see other cars below!).

At end of day, there were 4 bars down after 12 miles -- I oriignally said five down, but that was an error on my part. No AC or heat ever. I did not charge over night.

Today, I drove a loop on 152 and 435. Started with 6 white bars. Temp outside is 49. Set the cruise on 65, as any slower than that seems close to dangerous around here on those roads! The route I took is 41 miles, more or less. There are no major inclines, but its got some slow grades. Certainly not hilly, but not flat either.

At 39 miles (51 miles on the fully charged bat) I got the "low battery" message. Made it home. GOM is showing 4 more miles range.

So 51 miles to the low battery message. 53 miles with 4 left on GOM, and zero bars charge left (both red gone)

Seems less that I would have hoped for, but as noted, the 65 mph speed was likely faster than the Leaf likes.

I am clearly dissappointed -- but perhaps this is indeed the nature of the beast. I remain concerned that the dealer has inadvertantly damaged the battery somewhat. I assume that the computer will make the bat go through a couple charge cycles before it decides to start dumping capacity bars. If it does that soon, then I guess I'll know........

I had intended to send off my 110v EVSE to have it upgraded to 220v, but now I am thinking I should not be messing with that just yet, for fear that the dealer will blame it, or of course, should I end up returning the vehicle, the modified EVSE is an issue.

So I am done for 24 hrs as the 110v charger trickles the battery back to full. I had previously decided to wait with a wall mounted EVSE as they still seem overpriced, and I have a 50A welder plug already in my garage.

I appreciate all the advice and comments thus far. I just plain LOVE this car, aside from the battery. real pleasure to drive and comfortable too.

 

[RegGuheert]

That still sounds kind of low to me. I recommend that you record how much time it takes to recharge from 120V. That information may be useful.

Good luck!

 

[eclecticflower]

Call me and let me take a look at it any time (I'll PM you my extension). I'm sure you're out there in the parking lot, somewhere near my LEAF...I hope the bar issue is just a reflection of your driving style...and maybe there's a little confusion on what's displayed or it's the Guess-O-Meter? Was this purchased at Randy Reed Nissan? If so, that's where I got mine and their LEAF specialist is clueless about battery SOC. If it's truly a bad battery from their abuse, I'd use the 3 day return and take it back.

-Kathy

 

[TonyWilliams]

Hi-Don't jump to conclusions yet. You have to do some tests. Those batteries are very robust- despite what you hear from a few loud owners in Phoenix. My car had the same treatment at the dealer in Memphis this summer. Mine is fine.

Ya know, we hear this a lot from folks who are NOT in Phoenix. Those bad Phoenix people are just loud, and everything is fine. I suspect that if you were driving Scott Y's car, missing four capacity bars, you wouldn't be quite as glib. Surely, the 450 Arizona LEAF's are the minority, but like any minority, I don't see that as bad.

The batteries are not that "robust". Actually, for many of the typical lithium automotive grade batteries, this chemistry used in the LEAF (and Volt, albeit with temperature control) is one of the MOST susceptible to damage and degradation from heat.

In Phoenix, temperature in a black asphalt parking lot on a 120F/50C day can exceed 150F/65C. This is well into the damage temperature range for the chemistry. In addition, any heat generated from charging or just driving only increases the battery temperature.

In my own experience, after multiple quick charges (yes, approved in current owner's manual) while crossing Oregon in 12 hours, my LEAF reached a battery temperature of 130F/55C, even though the ambient air was only 60F-70F (15C-20C), and my driving never exceeded 65 mph on mostly level ground.

They will drop in capacity (temporarily) at temps under about 42F
You don't want to freeze them - at temps under 15F or so.

Lots of great points, so I'll just address the misleading ones. These batteries drop in capacity from any temperature change. They contain more energy at 120F/50C than they do at -4F/-20C. Nissan claims that they won't freeze until -22F/-30C, which is why the "Cold Climate Package" 300 watt heater in the battery energizes at -4F/-20C.

They don't like to be charged to 100% and left in storage -80% would be much better.
Deep-discharging them- or any battery- is risky. Try to go only down to one red bar of possible.

Actually, somewhere near 50% is best. For the LEAF, we recommend that you not leave the car plugged in while stored, since this will deplete the 12 volt lead/acid battery. I put a battery "tender" on the 12 volt any time I leave the LEAF for more than a week or two.

There are no "red bars" to indicate state of charge; those two tiny red bars are capacity segments (very common oversight).

Lithium batts should be broken-in with gentle use for about 10 charge cycles.

I have not seen any reference for this. There definitely is a break in period for maximum performance, but it only takes a few cycles.

For extended long-term life of the batts., set the charge timer for 80% and don't charge it when the temps are over 100F at night.

What would those "complainers" in Phoenix do? Not drive the car? Hence, why it's easy to complain when you're not in their shoes.

My rule is no charging over 84F and no driving over 100F.

I think you're making my case quite nicely.

Charge them to whatever level you need when vacationing- so as to not drop under 20 miles range (or leave charger on it)

I absolutely disagree. Target 50% for storage. DO NOT LEAVE A CHARGER on the LEAF for storage (since it won't need any power for about one year), and do either disconnect the 12 volt, or put it on a tender, or both.

Designing any battery system is a complex game of trade-offs. The batts in the Leaf are top-shelf technology. No other battery type could do what these do.

Well, of course there are many other batteries, and other designs (virtually all with a temperature management system [TMS]). Tesla does not use this chemistry, and they ONLY build electric cars (with TMS).

If you are a lead-foot, this is not the car for you. It's all about hyper-miling and seeing how far you can go.

If you're only driving those 20.5 miles per day that Nissan thinks you should drive in Phoenix, "lead foot" all you want !!!! If we limit the car to only "how far you can go", I suspect EV's will be niche vehicles for a LONG time.

 

[ksnogas2112]

CD, one point about the GOM that hasn't been reposted is that it requires a period of adjustment to determine your driving style. From earlier posts it sounded like your concern was all about the amount of charge displayed in the GOM not the actual mileage displayed. Yes, interstate driving will drop the available bars like a stone. The 20 mile round trip from the Legends back south takes 4 bars for only 20 miles around 65 mph. Additionally mine seems to get really weird when charging to 100% until the first three bars are off the GOM then it settles back down into predictable behavior. Today's example is leaving house with 109 miles showing and all 12 GOM bars and arriving to work 15 miles and 2 hours later with 9 bars and 77 miles (dropping off kids and waiting between time for school to start, no traffic isn't THAT bad). But in between it was 109,108,93,99,100,86,96,....I never had it above 35 mph but there were some substantial (for here) hills. I always seem to loose the first four bars fast and the middle 6 seem to last forever. I haven't taken it past low battery and 2 bars yet. That might happen on the trip to Abilene in a few weeks.

Let me know if you want to meet. You're the third person on the forum to purchase from RR and the second to have a less than favorable reaction to their dealership.

BTW, welcome to TEAM EV and I hope everything turns out ok for you.

 

[smkettner]

Set the cruise on 65, as any slower than that seems close to dangerous around here on those roads!

I used to drive mostly 55 in my truck to save gas, now I blaze along at 60 in my LEAF. For those that want to exceed our 65 limit they can move to one of the several left lanes and pass.
Besides if I am going so slow why am I constantly on the brakes as these cars going 80 cut in front and jamb on their brakes :roll:

 

[Stoaty]

I absolutely disagree. Target 50% for storage. DO NOT LEAVE A CHARGER on the LEAF for storage (since it won't need any power for about one year), and do either disconnect the 12 volt, or put it on a tender, or both.

Tony, this is one point I'm not sure I agree on (depending on what you mean by "storage"). References in the Wiki from Charles Whalen and another one Surfingslovak found indicate that the optimal SOC is between 30-40% for longer battery life. Of course, if you are going away for a month or more you may want to go higher so the SOC won't get too low if some charge is lost during extended period of storage.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Factors_Affecting_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can you comment on the other references, or have any of your own?

Thanks.

 

[cdherman]

The best news that I am hearing is at least the opinion that the batteries may have a little "break-in" period. I have noted that Li-Ion bats in computers do often behave that way a little. I know all the talk about Li bats not having a mamory effect etc -- but that's not always been my experience.

As far as the GOM goes, I am just ignoring that for now. Its the bars dropping that troubled me.

Missouri has no 3 day car return law, and I am not quite so unhappy as to go back to the dealer yet anyhow. So, looks more and more that I am going to be stuck here.....

 

[DaveEV]

With all the sitting the car did at the dealership and possibly getting topped off regularly (a big no-no in the manual - someone really needs to tell them to leave their LEAFs that are not being driven at a lower SOC - definitely no higher than 80%) there's 2 possible explanations:

1. Sitting at 100% all summer did a number on the battery.
2. The BMS is confused about what the actual capacity of the pack is - driving the car down to LBW or lower (which you already did) and charging back up should help correct this. While the battery itself has no memory - the computer that is estimating capacity and range does and could get confused.

At 65 mph on a 80% charge (10 bars) in good weather and fairly level ground, you should be able to make it about 50 miles before LBW and about 60 miles before LBW on a 100% charge.

From 8 bars SOC to LBW in about 40 miles at 65 mph is about right.

So what I'd do at this point is charge it back up to 100% and do the same out and back drive again and see what happens.

For reference - check Tony's range chart: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=4295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't panic when you get the first LBW with 1 bar. Though you might think that 1 bar means only 8% battery left, you actually have about 17% battery left so you can typically drive at least 15 miles before the car goes completely dead if you are able to drive gently on flat ground.

Good luck!

 

[cdherman]

Called the dealer to inquire if they had any new vehicle return policy. Well, the answer is no. And Missouri law does not provide for any recourse either.

So its my Leaf.....

They were polite and agreed that 53 miles seemed too little. Made me speak with their Leaf guy who assured me they do NOT fully charge their Leafs every 7 days, as the Salesperson told me.

Well, guess I have to take his word for it -- could also be that they just figured out that was a no no, but had not "re-educated" all the sales staff yet either.

I cannot seem to pull up the charge history in the computer, likely since the vehicle was not yet associated with a Carwings account????

 

[eclecticflower]

The dealer should have set up your account before you left...

 

[grommet]

Yes, CARWINGS is activated and tied to a user account after purchase ("the owner" - you)... anyway, the UI doesn't expose charging behavior to you, only driving statistics. There is no charge history.

"Less than optimal" charging practices will be reported by the nearly useless annual battery report, though. ;-)