My letter to Tesla regarding their Superchargers

[smkettner]

OK we are already off track. Employee perk I am Ok with. Public should pay.
If the government wants to promote EVs why not start with their own employees?
It is not like they are buying the cars for them.... oh wait there is that $7,500

 

[AndyH]

Tesla's in business to make a profit. The entire world is moving toward distributed everything and selling a service. Catering to the entire EV industry would provide Tesla an additional cash flow channel for an almost negligible upgrade - almost pure profit. I guess Elon's got enough money flowing and doesn't need any more?

There is no "profit" in the CHAdeMO business (I offer that with firsthand data).

From what I've seen posted on this forum, your point of view might be based on planting a fresh DCQC in a fresh location. That's not what I'm suggesting. The SC locations are in place - zoned, permitted, wired, and in operation. The incremental cost of one additional charger is much smaller - and between electricity sales, government EV infrastructure incentives, and depreciation, it likely wouldn't cost Tesla a dime over a 5 or 7 year period - they could probably make money from both electricity sales and advertising.

Current CHAdeMO cars are not designed to go 200 miles to even reach the Supercharger network.

Another interesting yet not useful generalization. It's 90 miles from San Antonio to Austin - there's a five-bay SC facility half way. It's 160 miles between San Antonio and Houston - there's a six-bay SC facility on that stretch. We're not talking 'convenience' here - we're talking capability.

Heck, even Nissan only reluctantly is in the CHAdeMO business, but that is to PROMOTE THEIR LEAF PRODUCT.

You do know Nissan are not the only company using CHAdeMO, right?

Tesla drivers will not be strolling into Nissan dealerships with a warm reception while their Model X with a 120kWh battery sucks up some "free" CHAdeMO electrons worth several tens of dollars.

No? Maybe that's a California thing, then, because here Nissan dealerships have yet to turn away Volt, PIP, or Model S drivers. As for 'several tens of dollars', according my calculator 120 kWh at 9.5 cents per (the residential, not cheaper commercial, rate around here) equates to $11.40...

As a future Tesla owner, I wouldn't want to stroll into a Supercharger station to find that the only plug left is a 50kW CHAdeMO that I would have to use a $1000 adaptor to use and which charges at less than half the speed of the Superchargers. And that is assuming that it is free; if there is an ad hoc fee to use it, I'm probably going to be unhappy.

Right, because in your 'glass well more than half empty example', that means that the six installed SC plugs are already in use. If there was no CHAdeMO installed, you'd be waiting in line. At least in your example, you'd have an option to get some electrons until one of the other points became available.

As much as some of the 'Grey Poupon' crowd might protest, I suspect a majority of Tesla owners would enjoy the chance to show off their cars to the other EVers that come to plug-in. I cannot think of a better marketing campaign for Tesla (another way to write-off a percentage of the chargers, BTW).

As for the rest, you are free to believe what you wish about Nissan - at least there's no grudge there...

Here's some real 'reality' for you about private charging networks and profit: In the greater Houston area, there are 17 DCQC stations installed - in Walgreens, WholeFoods, the local grocery chain HEB, and Cracker Barrel restaurants. All are CHAdeMO and none are affiliated in any way with Nissan - they're part of NRG Energy's eVgo system.

In the Dallas-Ft Worth area there are 27 DCQC stations installed - in the above locations as well as in a pair of Exxon gas stations. As in Houston, all are CHAdeMO and all are part of NRG's system. Source: http://www.plugshare.com/

These flat, fixed monthly charges — a common attribute to electricity plans in Texas’ deregulated market — are expected to earn NRG a profit over the lifetime of the contracts, NRG CEO David Crane said in a Thursday morning teleconference. NRG is hoping to have about 1,000 customer signed up in about a year, he said.

For the benefit of the nascent EV transition, it might be best for some of the crystal balls to remain in their velvet bags for at least a little while longer...

 

[TonyWilliams]

There is no "profit" in the CHAdeMO business (I offer that with firsthand data).

From what I've seen posted on this forum, your point of view might be based on planting a fresh DCQC in a fresh location. That's not what I'm suggesting. The SC locations are in place - zoned, permitted, wired, and in operation. The incremental cost of one additional charger is much smaller - and between electricity sales, government EV infrastructure incentives, and depreciation, it likely wouldn't cost Tesla a dime over a 5 or 7 year period - they could probably make money from both electricity sales and advertising.

Well, I guess when you have control of Tesla, you can decide that. Thankfully, I'm extremely confident that there aren't going to be competing chargers at Supercharger locations. I'm equally confident that neither Tesla nor anybody else is going to make money by buying a competitor's $15k-$40k charger, plus installation, for their competitor's vehicles to use.

There are teeny tiny expenses that I don't imagine that you think much about like the upgraded transformer (currently, Tesla uses 500KVA transformers for 480kW of Superchargers), maintenance on a product that they don't produce or control, a whole new accounting system to gather the funds, etc., not to mention more parking space(s) needed. Good luck with the last one, because that may be the biggest deal breaker of all.

Current CHAdeMO cars are not designed to go 200 miles to even reach the Supercharger network.

Another interesting yet not useful generalization. It's 90 miles from San Antonio to Austin - there's a five-bay SC facility half way. It's 160 miles between San Antonio and Houston - there's a six-bay SC facility on that stretch. We're not talking 'convenience' here - we're talking capability.

I didn't claim that there was NO location that wouldn't be beneficial to LEAF owners. Heck, there will soon be a Supercharger within 57 miles of my house. That site is also within one mile of a Chargepoint CHAdeMO charger that I happen to know quite well. I wouldn't imagine there would be much gain for the LEAF community there, eh? Good luck getting to the next Supercharger that is 100-200 miles away.

Heck, even Nissan only reluctantly is in the CHAdeMO business, but that is to PROMOTE THEIR LEAF PRODUCT.

You do know Nissan are not the only company using CHAdeMO, right?

I think you're little debate here is quickly sliding into the silly. Effectively, in the USA, the Nissan LEAF is CHAdeMO. I'm not really going to have a back-and-forth with you on that one, and you're welcome to have the last word on it.

Tesla drivers will not be strolling into Nissan dealerships with a warm reception while their Model X with a 120kWh battery sucks up some "free" CHAdeMO electrons worth several tens of dollars.

No? Maybe that's a California thing, then, because here Nissan dealerships have yet to turn away Volt, PIP, or Model S drivers. As for 'several tens of dollars', according my calculator 120 kWh at 9.5 cents per (the residential, not cheaper commercial, rate around here) equates to $11.40...

Just so that I understand your position here, stiffing the local Nissan dealer for $11.40 in electricity (not counting the amortized cost of demand fees and other things you likely don't think about) is "OK". Yes, here in the People's Republik of California, that charge could be "several tens of dollars". Again, you're only proving to me that facts are not the strong point of your debate, and I'm not keen on silly debates.

As a future Tesla owner, I wouldn't want to stroll into a Supercharger station to find that the only plug left is a 50kW CHAdeMO that I would have to use a $1000 adaptor to use and which charges at less than half the speed of the Superchargers. And that is assuming that it is free; if there is an ad hoc fee to use it, I'm probably going to be unhappy.

Right, because in your 'glass well more than half empty example', that means that the six installed SC plugs are already in use. If there was no CHAdeMO installed, you'd be waiting in line. At least in your example, you'd have an option to get some electrons until one of the other points became available.

Or Tesla could have installed another Supercharger, which is exactly what they have done in Gilroy, California, which I believe is up to 14 chargers now. Thankfully, they didn't waste precious resources of time and money putting in something else with lesser capabilities.

As for the rest, you are free to believe what you wish about Nissan - at least there's no grudge there...

You completely lost me there, and I'd only have to guess what this means. If this is some reference to sucking up "tens of dollars" worth of electrons with my Tesla Model X at PRIVATELY and INDEPENDENTLY owned franchise Nissan dealers, yes, I'm confident your mileage will vary!!! You certainly can believe whatever you want!!!

Here's some real 'reality' for you about private charging networks and profit: In the greater Houston area, there are 17 DCQC stations installed - in Walgreens, WholeFoods, the local grocery chain HEB, and Cracker Barrel restaurants. All are CHAdeMO and none are affiliated in any way with Nissan - they're part of NRG Energy's eVgo system.

Excuse if I snorted a bit of soft drink through my nose while I read that you were going to educate me on the vast profits to be made in DC quick charging.

I do know a bit about NRG... and what this has to do with either Nissan or Tesla hosting CHAdeMO sites is also confusing. Hopefully, NRG will ultimately make money, because if a multi-bazillion dollar private company that is also an electric provider can't do it, nobody can. For EVs to succeed, we need companies like NRG, Nissan and Tesla to be profitable and successful.

Neither Tesla, nor Nissan, are going to "make money" on DC charging, at least until somebody starts paying royalties!!! Again, knock yourself out with sugar plum fairies who will pay too much to DC quick charge instead of "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)".

Yep, that's me at the NRG/eVgo grand opening in San Diego Sept 2013

 

[TomT]

Nice tie!

Yep, that's me at the NRG/eVgo grand opening in San Diego Sept 2013

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ It's interesting reading the debate between you two. What I keep coming back to is the EV infrastructure probably never will be a money maker, the real money in DCQC is providing a hook that draws people in and makes them wait around for half an hour. There must be huge potential (no pun) in that, much bigger than the quick hit c-stores get from gas pumps to sell a slushee or pack of cigs. IMO the "audience" just isn't big enough for people to figure it out yet. Charging infrastructure isn't the chicken to the EV egg, the business model for providing it is.

 

[TonyWilliams]

^ It's interesting reading the debate between you two. What I keep coming back to is the EV infrastructure probably never will be a money maker, the real money in DCQC is providing a hook that draws people in and makes them wait around for half an hour. There must be huge potential (no pun) in that, much bigger than the quick hit c-stores get from gas pumps to sell a slushee or pack of cigs. IMO the "audience" just isn't big enough for people to figure it out yet. Charging infrastructure isn't the chicken to the EV egg, the business model for providing it is.

Well, so far, we have four models of DC infrastructure:

1) Government funded like Ecotality/Blink, and the West Coast Electric Highway in Oregon and Washington

2) Deep pocket company like NRG with a model of monthly dues, much like cell phone contracts and gym memberships

3) Auto manufacturer installed and funded like Tesla / Nissan

4) Privately owned and usually grant recipients like EVoasis


I can offer that #1 is great for the EV community when available. I suspect that in the future, governments will be looking for private industry to step in.

There is not a surplus of NRG type companies, sorry. That's because unless they are offsetting the value for a $100 million dollar settlement, it's not a very strong attraction for a private company.

Tesla will obviously continue on with their model, and hopefully license others to follow them. Nissan, it's hard to say. I can't imagine that GM / BMW will volunteer to be in the Frankenplug business.

The last one, well, perhaps you think this should fall in the "folks will flock in to buy the host's product", but unfortunately, what is most likely is that folks will not. Very few companies are giving away Coke products at the front door to lure in customers, and a Coke machine doesn't cost $30k - $100k installed.

 

[AndyH]

There is no "profit" in the CHAdeMO business (I offer that with firsthand data).

From what I've seen posted on this forum, your point of view might be based on planting a fresh DCQC in a fresh location. That's not what I'm suggesting. The SC locations are in place - zoned, permitted, wired, and in operation. The incremental cost of one additional charger is much smaller - and between electricity sales, government EV infrastructure incentives, and depreciation, it likely wouldn't cost Tesla a dime over a 5 or 7 year period - they could probably make money from both electricity sales and advertising.

Well, I guess when you have control of Tesla, you can decide that. Thankfully, I'm extremely confident that there aren't going to be competing chargers at Supercharger locations. I'm equally confident that neither Tesla nor anybody else is going to make money by buying a competitor's $15k-$40k charger, plus installation, for their competitor's vehicles to use.

There are teeny tiny expenses that I don't imagine that you think much about like the upgraded transformer (currently, Tesla uses 500KVA transformers for 480kW of Superchargers), maintenance on a product that they don't produce or control, a whole new accounting system to gather the funds, etc., not to mention more parking space(s) needed. Good luck with the last one, because that may be the biggest deal breaker of all.

Had you explored the location of the Texas supercharger locations you'd see how silly your comments are, Tony. Sorry man, but the entire USA is NOT California. I mean no slur to CA or her residents - but there's a reason for the differences of opinion. In this state, by and for business, with plenty of infrastructure and incentives, the negatives include CO2 emissions but do not include a shortage of transformers or parking space.

As for the rest, I'll leave it at 'good day'.

 

[smkettner]

My Brother was getting FREE overnight electricity from TX for a while and maybe still.
My house would have been an overnight icebox to avoid the high day prices.... but then TX day prices are not really so bad either compared to CA.
Energy is very business friendly in TX.
JMHO

 

[Zythryn]

...Sorry man, but the entire USA is NOT California...

Likewise, the entire USA is not Texas

What we each see and experience shapes our opinions.
Personally, here in MN I don't know of a single CHAdeMO charger in the state.
As for Nissan dealerships, I have seen reports of some dealerships that were very welcoming of any EV owner charging, while others have denied non Leafs. Some, it apparently depends which manager is working.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Had you explored the location of the Texas supercharger locations you'd see how silly your comments are, Tony. Sorry man, but the entire USA is NOT California. I mean no slur to CA or her residents - but there's a reason for the differences of opinion. In this state, by and for business, with plenty of infrastructure and incentives, the negatives include CO2 emissions but do not include a shortage of transformers or parking space.

As for the rest, I'll leave it at 'good day'.

And the reverse is true; the entire USA isn't Texas, as silly as both comments are. Shortage of transformers is funny, though. Since the issue isn't a shortage of transformers, either here or in Texas, perhaps transformers are free there? Here, in California, companies like Tesla have to actually pay for them. The issue is good old fashioned money.

I obviously can't comment on every parking lot in the whole state of Texas, so I'll leave that part to you. Again, here, and in pretty much any dense urban area IN THE WORLD (except perhaps Texas?), developers don't like to waste money on "extra" parking, and there likely are regulatory requirements as well (I'm aware of places like Houston that have no zoning... the exception, not the rule).

Good call on the rest, 'cause you're sure not persuading me that Tesla should offer competing lower power charging systems at their Supercharger sites, even in Texas.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Meh. We didn't get 168,000 gas stations out of benevolence. Even if the central planners step in and create some mega public works project it would only be a fraction of what we would get if somebody could find a way to make it work with good old fashioned profit motive.

 

[AndyH]

Shortage of transformers is funny, though. Since the issue isn't a shortage of transformers, either here or in Texas, perhaps transformers are free there? Here, in California, companies like Tesla have to actually pay for them. The issue is good old fashioned money.

My comments about the value of expanding two quick charge locations were fairly clear, though maybe not clear enough. When I wrote that the locations were planned, zoned, WIRED, etc. that meant that the infrastructure is already in place to support more chargers. I can see how that could be missed or misinterpreted, however. No worries.

The Waco location, for example, is in the parking lot of a power company payment center, which is next to the parking lot for an extended-stay motel. Neither parking space nor transformer capacity are limiting factors. Today's fun fact: It's also not far from the SpaceX rocket test facility which is just SW of Waco. Lookie - a Grasshopper: http://goo.gl/maps/VA3MF


http://goo.gl/maps/O2MSW

No, Tony, transformers are not free in Texas. But since it's understood that a charger is pretty useless until it's connected to a source of electrons, even a Texas business person would make sure their plan included appropriately-sized transformers. Thankfully, most look for ways to make something happen rather than standing on the sidelines telling people that it won't work. When it comes to successful business, Eeyore need not apply.

edit:

NRG, through its subsidiary eVgo, continues its build out and operation of the Houston and Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex, or DFW, EV ecosystems, and the Company's progress to date has positioned it to be the first company to equip an entire major market with the privately funded infrastructure needed for successful EV adoption and integration. As of December 31, 2012, eVgo had 17 public fast charging Freedom Station sites operational in Houston and 20 in DFW. These two ecosystems are the largest privately-funded comprehensive direct current fast-charging networks in the nation. In addition, eVgo had 6 sites in the newly entered Washington, DC/Baltimore market under construction or in permitting. eVgo offers consumers a subscription-based plan that provides for all charging requirements for EVs at a competitive monthly fee.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix...wJlNRREVTQz1TRUNUSU9OX0VOVElSRSZzdWJzaWQ9NTc=

 

[smkettner]

I am waiting for Tesla to back into those spots automatically.
Some cars parallel park themselves.... why not this since the port is in the rear.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... even a Texas business person would make sure their plan included appropriately-sized transformers. Thankfully, most look for ways to make something happen rather than standing on the sidelines telling people that it won't work. When it comes to successful business, Eeyore need not apply.

Thankfully, nobody ever referred to Elon Musk as Eeyore. Tesla obviously uses the correct transformer for the job at hand, and they are making a nationwide Supercharger system happen with more speed, higher quality, and more power than any such electric vehicle infrastructure project ever in the history of mankind.

These guys aren't standing on the sidelines, and neither am I. Perhaps you could learn something from people of action.

 

[JeremyW]

I'd also like to point out that super/quick charging at any level is a large draw from the grid. Doesn't matter if you are in CA, TX or anywhere really, grid side equipment is not cheap. Transformers are sized appropriately for the load of which they serve and there is usually not much spare capacity left over. Tesla is no exception. Certainly the transformers are not in "short supply" but they must be purchased and connected to the appropriate distribution feeder, which is most likely the most limiting factor electrically for selecting such a site (nearby amenities, land price and location are also large factors). Even within one utility network, some feeders will be more heavily loaded than others or more appropriate for a large load such as a supercharging station with 8 or more bays. Eventually with 30+ bays you're looking at sub-transmission (60kV and up) connections. I'm sure Tesla is looking at sites not only for a few bays for now but ones that can scale. The higher up in voltage you go, the cheaper the demand fees and energy costs get but higher up front cost for the higher voltage equipment.

 

[qwk]

So 19 kw charging from a J1772 is only for clown cars? My guess is a clown car with a 60kwh pack would go about 250 miles on that three hour charge. Probably enough range for those clowns that usually stay close to the circus.

I don't know what you drive, but 19kw charging is not going to work for road trips for anyone but the die hard early adopters, sorry. Been there done that. A 1 hr stop is bad enough for an 85kwh battery.