Lost Battery Capacity and Range / Autonomy, Page 2

[WetEV]

from about 500 to about 4000 full battery cycles to 70% capacity. This is from 37,500 miles to 300,000 miles, based on 75 miles per full battery cycle.

Interesting. If you had said that couple of years ago, you would have likely witnessed something akin to a public lynching.

I know. Yet well known experts, which I am not on either count, said much the same thing in the press. People didn't want to listen???

Perhaps, but as SierraQ said above, you are giving an insanely wide range of cycles.

The range of cycles isn't insanely wide. Consider climates from Prince Rupert, Phoenix, AZ. Then work out the Arrhenius ratio of lifetimes: perhaps 4:1 right there. Add self heating under moderate driving and charging(fairly low, longer battery life) to self heating under high discharge rates and/or recharge rates (fairly high, shorter battery life): perhaps another 1.5:1. Add some different cycles (100% to 10% or 70% to 30%, narrower cycles give longer battery life): perhaps another 1.3:1. Toss in a bit more for keeping the battery at 100% and other behaviors. Stir in a bit of other stuff. Looks like a wide range to me. Of course, I'm not a real battery expert. If anyone knows more, correct me.

On the other hand, you might assume that Nissan was being pessimistic in the battery life assessment like Nissan was in the range assessment. Perhaps exactly the same. In which case I'm being way too optimistic.

The manufacturer gave the purchasing public assurances that the battery will last the life of the vehicle, and that it will withstand a wide range of climates seen in the US. A TMS was specifically called out as unnecessary. Perhaps it was a bit naive to believe that, but for you to come forward in the wake of the Phoenix fiasco, claim that you knew it all beforehand, and anticipated some batteries reaching EOL in less than two years and 40K miles sounds a bit over the top.

I do fault Nissan on this.

Did you listen to Elon Musk at all? If you didn't listen to him, why would you have listened to me?

http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-ceo-rips-nissans-battery-technology-says-its-primitive-50527.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Watch the pack voltage, it's a source of truth, and it indicates that not all of the capacity decline we see is imaginary.

I agree with your assessment that this isn't just a software bug.

The information needed to make an informed purchase was out there. There was an excess of optimism, there is now an excess of pessimism. There is a point to having a BEV like the Leaf (Li ion with no TMS) in much of the country.

I disagree. A lot of the technology in the Leaf was and is still treated as something proprietary and of great value. Not to be shared with the competition, and definitely not with the ignorant public. Many of us wanted to see something as simple as a cycle life data sheet from AESC. I dare you to find one. Instead, we were left scratching our heads and looking for shreds of information on comparable products and components, which is not exactly easy to do. The same thing can be said of thermal performance. It's fairly standard procedure to put cells in a temperature controlled chamber and see how different temps affect cycle life. And again, this information on AESC cells is nowhere to be found. The list goes on.

Again, I do fault Nissan on this. More information is needed, and Nissan better realize that giving more information at this point reduces their future liability.

There is a point to a BEV without TMS. Lower cost, less to go wrong, just better keep it cool in other ways or expect to replace battery packs early. Nissan did not sell the Leaf this way, which is too bad.

Yes, a full court legal press might maximize your payout, and will surely maximize the lawyer's pay. But is that a good thing? If it convinces other car companies to not offer a comparable BEV, is it a bad thing? I guess the answer depends a little on point of view, and on the time period, and what costs you consider.

I'm not a proponent of some of the more drastic measures suggested on the forum, but I do believe that this issue needs the attention it deserves. It can easily become the most important problem the Leaf program has faced. It could have a ripple effect on the nascent EV industry as a whole. There also needs to be more openness and some give-and-take between manufacturers and early adopters. We can help each other, and are starting to realize that, but it's not enough. That said, I absolutely agree with Tony and others that there needs to be new regulation for EVs. I suspect that's the only language the auto industry understands, and they will get it right.

I'm mostly in agreement with you. I've put this comment in to suggest that some of the more drastic measures are counterproductive. Nissan had best do something like the following (which I've said before):
1) Convert sales to leases on request, at least for hot areas. Maybe not free, but not high cost.
2) Allow for early lease exit without major loss to the customer. I note that there has been one case of this so far.
3) Give more information about the battery life expectation.

Regulation needs to be a requirement to put some basic battery pack life information on the EPA label. Perhaps just number of cycles to 70% at some standard temperature, rate of charge and discharge and cycle depth. The temperature might be the upper limit temperature of the TMS if there is a TMS. Some comment on the TMS system or lack there of is needed as well on the EPA label. There is a point to a BEV without TMS, but need to make sure people know what they are buying.

 

[WetEV]

I agree that not having a TMS highly desirable from an engineering perspective, it simplifies the design a lot.

A simpler, and much less costly engineering perspective would be to limit the LEAF to ambient temperatures below XXX degrees. Problem fixed!!!! That's just not consumer friendly.

Maybe to those that live in Prince Rupert, BC. Record high temperature for today is 19.4 C. They might get up to 17 C today.

http://www.weatheroffice.gc.ca/city/pages/bc-57_metric_e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[RegGuheert]

Did you listen to Elon Musk at all?

Nissan had non-public information about the LEAF battery system that Elon Musk did not and they strongly affirmed that the LEAF battery had been thoroughly tested in the Arizona heat and that it would be fine.

Truly we should be able to believe the officers of a large corporation such as Nissan when they make statements about the capabilities of their new products. Unfortunately we cannot.

 

[WetEV]

Most technology is new in some fashion so I don't buy this excuse. A company must stand behind their products. There is an expectation that companies do the proper research and testing to ensure that some reasonable level of quality is met. There is an expectation that products can be used for their purpose. The risk we all took is: 1) can we live with a 80ish-mile range vehicle and 2) will the cost of replacing the battery 5-10 years from now be far less than it is today. We did not take a risk that you could not use the car in natural activities for a car--driving it in the rain for example. In fact Nissan bent over backward with ads, examples, and testimonials that the Leaf was just a regular car that happened to be powered by electricity.

This is not to be confused with natural limitations. Driving the Leaf 80MPH will get you far less range than at 60MPH. That was clearly communicated and accepted. Driving in hot weather, however, is a natural activity. If they told us such heat would reduce the battery life from 10 years to 8, I think that is reasonable in the same way that driving in northern states causes more body wear because of the ice and salted roads. But we are seeing 10 years down to potentially 3 if the degradation does not level off.

Yes, but a BEV isn't just a regular car. Yes, Nissan communicated poorly. Chemistry suggests rather more change in battery lifetime than 10 years to 8 years, regardless of what anyone thinks is reasonable, and yes that is a natural limitation.

The information needed to make an informed purchase was out there. There was an excess of optimism, there is now an excess of pessimism. There is a point to having a BEV like the Leaf (Li ion with no TMS) in much of the country.

The information was faulty. Nissan was pretty careful not to make any promises on capacity but they did imply that the car would retain 80% after 5-10 years--another overly broad range but far short of the 1-2 years we are seeing. While I agree there is an excess of pessimism and like some I believe Nissan will set this right because they care about their name, I also think much of the loud complaining is justified because a car is a major purchase and one your whole livelihood depends on. People naturally get really upset when things go wrong with something like that.

Nissan's information was faulty. There are other sources of information. Yes, people naturally get really upset. Now channel that anger into making a change that will matter. How can we lobby effectively for a change in the EPA required label to include basic information on battery life expectancy for future BEVs? I don't know, but that is one thing that needs to be done. Do you know?

Yes, a full court legal press might maximize your payout, and will surely maximize the lawyer's pay. But is that a good thing? If it convinces other car companies to not offer a comparable BEV, is it a bad thing? I guess the answer depends a little on point of view, and on the time period, and what costs you consider.

This idea of not pressuring or punishing Nissan "for the good of the EV movement" is ridiculous. You do not help a person or a cause by coddling their weaknesses.

Balance is needed. Patience is needed now, and later. Punish? Hopefully Nissan will do the right thing.

 

[vrwl]

6. Start a battery exchange program. When degradation hits some value, you go to a dealer who has access to a regional battery bank (in climate controlled buildings), who then swaps out your battery while you wait. A nominal fee is charged for the service, but all costs of batteries are borne by Nissan

This one gets my vote with one caveat... they CONTINUE to replace our capacity reduced, hot temp batteries (Gonewild has already had two packs lose capacity bars) at a very nominal fee until such time as they come out with a pack that can withstand the heat in the southern US.

 

[jspearman]

At this point I just want them to buy the car back and we will buy two 2013 Volts. They seem to be working fine here in Phoenix, and I no longer want to be a guinea pig for Nissan. I'll wait on another pure EV until Tesla S's have had time to simmer in the Arizona sun for a year or two, then reconsider.

 

[TonyWilliams]

At this point I just want them to buy the car back and we will buy two 2013 Volts. They seem to be working fine here in Phoenix, and I no longer want to be a guinea pig for Nissan. I'll wait on another pure EV until Tesla S's have had time to simmer in the Arizona sun for a year or two, then reconsider.

Do you have a lease? If so, did you call Nissan Financial to see if you could turn it in?

 

[jspearman]

At this point I just want them to buy the car back and we will buy two 2013 Volts. They seem to be working fine here in Phoenix, and I no longer want to be a guinea pig for Nissan. I'll wait on another pure EV until Tesla S's have had time to simmer in the Arizona sun for a year or two, then reconsider.

Do you have a lease? If so, did you call Nissan Financial to see if you could turn it in?

I lost my second capacity bar after I posted this yesterday. Sadly, no, we didn't lease. I tried to talk my wife into leasing, but we both grew up poor and she likes to own things. Not much to do now besides wait for Nissan and hope we don't have another record string of 110+ degree days/90 degree nights.

 

[dsh]

Avondale Nissan checked out LEAF today. As assumed, “Battery tested good at this time, but is not an indication of future failure.” All computer diagnostics checked out OK. Was informed there’s no ‘cooling fan’ for the batteries, but I do have the battery heater in this vehicle.
Received update on Casa Grande testing…Nissan looking at specific cells measuring highest charge cells vs. lowest charge cells to determine reason for variation. Also, they ARE able to replace out individual modules. In addition, Nissan was able to say LEAFs have approximately 5% more capacity, than what is listed via Li-ion battery capacity level gauge… Good to know.
They did state this is one of the lowest mileage LEAFs they encountered with the battery degradation problem…other owners had at least 20-30k on their vehicles.
Nissan will keep me posted with their conclusions, but nothing as of yet…as expected.
Lastly, received contact back from Executive Relations spokesman for Mark Perry and he said as assumed, no information yet, but Nissan diligently testing. I suggested Nissan offer good faith replacements for these batteries and when /if they have updated versions in 2013 to replace again. Some owners use this vehicle for work, and if they can’t get the range need, it will impact them negatively.
Will keep forum posted…

 

[Stoaty]

They did state this is one of the lowest mileage LEAFs they encountered with the battery degradation problem…other owners had at least 20-30k on their vehicles.

This fits with the data in the Wiki. You have lost 3 bars in fewer miles (7,767 miles) than any other owner has lost one bar. The lowest recorded mileage for one bar loss (besides yours, of course) is 9,200. However, there is one report of someone losing two bars at 7,000 miles. We don't know the mileage when he/she lost the first bar.

 

[ydnas7]

the simple (read corporate / government) response will be battery lease,
no more battery ownership = no more battery issues.

The Fluence ZE has 4 x AESC cells in 48 modules same as LEAF
The Fluence ZE and Nissan LEAF both rely on thermal mass and ambient temperature to provide battery life.
The LEAF has greater thermal coupling to the car, whereas the Fluence ZE has a fan.

Renault provides replacement for Fluence ZE batteries that fall to less than 75% capacity.
http://www.renault.co.uk/cars/model/fluence-ze/zebattery.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the lease varies depending on mileage but its about $100 per month

crude, simple, effective, those in cooler or coastal climates pay for those in hot climates.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

crude, simple, effective, those in cooler or coastal climates pay for those in hot climates.

sounds like socialism, however I rather think that those in cooler or coastal climates as well those in hot climates pay for leasing a particular product

 

[Herm]

The battery lease could vary depending on location, you move to Phoenix and suddenly your lease rates go up 30%.

 

[dsh]

One thing I failed to mention, was when speaking to the technician who checked out my LEAF, he mentioned Air conditioning takes it's power directly from the Li-Ion Pack Battery...Does anybody think there is a correlation between battery degredation and LEAF owners who who use the air conditioning every day in the Summer in addition to the the hot air surrounding the battery pack. Sounds like the more strain you put on the Battery pack i.e. A/C and other environmental conditions will cause the battery to get weaker faster...just a thought.

Avondale Nissan checked out LEAF today. As assumed, “Battery tested good at this time, but is not an indication of future failure.” All computer diagnostics checked out OK. Was informed there’s no ‘cooling fan’ for the batteries, but I do have the battery heater in this vehicle.
Received update on Casa Grande testing…Nissan looking at specific cells measuring highest charge cells vs. lowest charge cells to determine reason for variation. Also, they ARE able to replace out individual modules. In addition, Nissan was able to say LEAFs have approximately 5% more capacity, than what is listed via Li-ion battery capacity level gauge… Good to know.
They did state this is one of the lowest mileage LEAFs they encountered with the battery degradation problem…other owners had at least 20-30k on their vehicles.
Nissan will keep me posted with their conclusions, but nothing as of yet…as expected.
Lastly, received contact back from Executive Relations spokesman for Mark Perry and he said as assumed, no information yet, but Nissan diligently testing. I suggested Nissan offer good faith replacements for these batteries and when /if they have updated versions in 2013 to replace again. Some owners use this vehicle for work, and if they can’t get the range need, it will impact them negatively.
Will keep forum posted…

 

[TonyWilliams]

The LEAF has greater thermal coupling to the car, whereas the Fluence ZE has a fan.

Renault provides replacement for Fluence ZE batteries that fall to less than 75% capacity.
http://www.renault.co.uk/cars/model/fluence-ze/zebattery.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great information. I'll add it to my summary on the first post. I've read that the LEAF did have a provision for a fan in early prototypes, however I don't know if that's true, or if it would even help on an asphalt car park that exceeds temperatures of 122F/50C.

I do know that numerous DC quick charges heated my battery to about 136.6F/58C. And that was in mid 60F/20C ambient temps.

I'm sure you saw that our Nissan folks don't cover any battery capacity. Everything is normal, and total BS.

 

[LEAFer]

..., whereas the Fluence ZE has a fan.

Internal to a sealed battery pack (to distribute heat evenly), or external to the pack (to improve radiative and conducted heat dissipation), or internal thru (a non-sealed) pack ?

The initial/prototype plan for the LEAF was (IIRC) of the former type.

 

[ALLWATZ]

Just looked at the NHTSA web site and only 7 of us have filed a complaint out of the 50+ cars that have reported capacity loss issues! Come on guys!! Take a moment and fill out the form. As per their statement online "Before initiating an investigation, NHTSA carefully reviews the body of consumer complaints and other available data to determine whether a defect trend may exist." 7 out of 50+ does not a body make. :x If only 7 Pinto owners had complained, we'd all be driving around with gas tanks strapped to our rears.

 

[EVDRIVER]

One thing I failed to mention, was when speaking to the technician who checked out my LEAF, he mentioned Air conditioning takes it's power directly from the Li-Ion Pack Battery...Does anybody think there is a correlation between battery degredation and LEAF owners who who use the air conditioning every day in the Summer in addition to the the hot air surrounding the battery pack. Sounds like the more strain you put on the Battery pack i.e. A/C and other environmental conditions will cause the battery to get weaker faster...just a thought.

Avondale Nissan checked out LEAF today. As assumed, “Battery tested good at this time, but is not an indication of future failure.” All computer diagnostics checked out OK. Was informed there’s no ‘cooling fan’ for the batteries, but I do have the battery heater in this vehicle.
Received update on Casa Grande testing…Nissan looking at specific cells measuring highest charge cells vs. lowest charge cells to determine reason for variation. Also, they ARE able to replace out individual modules. In addition, Nissan was able to say LEAFs have approximately 5% more capacity, than what is listed via Li-ion battery capacity level gauge… Good to know.
They did state this is one of the lowest mileage LEAFs they encountered with the battery degradation problem…other owners had at least 20-30k on their vehicles.
Nissan will keep me posted with their conclusions, but nothing as of yet…as expected.
Lastly, received contact back from Executive Relations spokesman for Mark Perry and he said as assumed, no information yet, but Nissan diligently testing. I suggested Nissan offer good faith replacements for these batteries and when /if they have updated versions in 2013 to replace again. Some owners use this vehicle for work, and if they can’t get the range need, it will impact them negatively.
Will keep forum posted…

The AC is not a high load. The heater is much higher and both of these items are not the issue or contributors, your foot is far more damaging to the pack then the AC ever could be.

 

[TonyWilliams]

“Thermal management of lithium-ion battery systems is critical to the success of all-electric vehicles because extreme temperatures can affect performance, reliability, safety and durability,” says a Ford press release.

“Extreme temperatures impact a battery’s life and performance, making it crucial to have an effective cooling and heating system to regulate temperature for these demanding applications,” said Anand Sankaran, Ford executive technical leader, Energy Storage and HV Systems.

Reference Mark Perry's comments that Dubai might need a temperature management system, but not Phoenix:

........................Dubai............................................Phoenix........

May: avg high 100F avg low 76F......ave high: 95F, average low: 69F
Jun: avg high 103F avg low 81F....... ave high: 104F, average low: 78F
July: avg high 105F avg low 86F.......ave high: 106F, average low: 83F
Aug: avg high 106F avg low 86F......ave high: 104F, average low: 83F
Sept: avg high 102F avg low 81F.....ave high: 100F, average low: 77F

 

[TomT]

Nope. The amount of power the Air Conditioner uses is quite modest. The heater uses far more.

One thing I failed to mention, was when speaking to the technician who checked out my LEAF, he mentioned Air conditioning takes it's power directly from the Li-Ion Pack Battery...Does anybody think there is a correlation between battery degredation and LEAF owners who who use the air conditioning every day in the Summer in addition to the the hot air surrounding the battery pack. Sounds like the more strain you put on the Battery pack i.e. A/C and other environmental conditions will cause the battery to get weaker faster...just a thought.