Leaf Spy and Leaf Spy Pro

[TimLee]

...I always thought (and confirm with 3 years of driving) that in colder weather (and battery) the range decreases even if you are not running any climate control. Am I incorrect? Even Tony's range chart modifies the range lower as the ambient temperature drops. ...

The loss of energy from drag increases as the air density increases.
I observed this while coasting down a long modest grade on I75 yesterday.
In 70F conditions vehicle speed will increase from 55 mph to 70 mph on the grade.
Yesterday at 25 F, only increased from 55 mph to 63 mph.
A lot more drag force.

 

[Turbo3]

Since we had a cold snap, I have noticed an interesting behavior with the app. I had the DTE range set to change with ambient and battery temperature. My garage is warmer than it is outside (like 50's vs 20's). But as I drive outside and the temperature gauge changes, the app increases my range. I always thought (and confirm with 3 years of driving) that in colder weather (and battery) the range decreases even if you are not running any climate control. Am I incorrect? Even Tony's range chart modifies the range lower as the ambient temperature drops. So is this working as intended? How is the app calculating this information?

When you check that box the app uses Tony's formula.

To see what is going on it would be very helpful to have a log of that trip. Did you have logging turned on or can you duplicate the trip with logging enabled.

Normally I too would expect the range to decrease but I need to see all the data to verify what is going on. If the BMS was reporting an increase in SOC during the trip then that could override the formula and cause the range to increase or there could be a bug in my implementation of Tony's formula.

 

[lorenfb]

- Turbo3 -

"It is not based on how much energy (kWhr) is in the battery unless the battery is fully charged so it makes no sense to divide the kWhr by the current voltage to get AHr rating. AHr rating is based on nominal voltage when the battery is fully charged since the voltage decreases as energy is removed from the battery"

Disagree! You need to obtain the LeafDD and observe what GregH has designed.
It might give you insights on product improvements.

What exactly do you disagree with? The Ah rating of a battery? That is pretty standard stuff.

A June 6 2013 video by GregH has him stating his display calculates Ah by taking the BMS value for Ah (the one Leaf Spy displays on the top of screen 1) and multiplying it by the current SOC% value (also shown on the top of screen 1 and screens 3 and 4). So when fully charged you get the Ah rating for the battery (actually a little less since SOC never gets to 100%). If the battery is 50% full then it displays 50% of the rated Ah.

Certainly Leaf Spy could show such a number but is it of value? How would one use this varying Ah number?

What I did not understand of your previous remarks was taking kWh and dividing it by voltage to get an Ah value.
===================================

It is only code so here is Ah like LeafDD.

That screen looks great! Has the app been updated to include this mod?

The utility of monitoring the Ahrs as one drives is that one can correlate Ahrs with bar 'drops' and
thus determine what to expect from capacity loss (bar loss) over time. Obviously one could do
the same correlation using kWhrs, but personally I find using Ahrs more meaningful data when
analyzing any battery capacity over time. Over time the Leaf's battery's output voltage will still
have the same basic values from a low to high SOC (~10-15% variation) as the battery ages,
but the Ahrs capacity will change more significantly as the battery ages, i.e. as in any application
where a battery is used over time.

With regard to obtaining Ahrs by dividing kWhs by voltage, there's obviously an instantaneous
voltage value which is used by the BMS to obtain the kWhrs being provided, right? With screen
shot above (10.8 kWhs and 32.17 Ahrs), the calculated voltage at that point of battery capacity
is about 336 volts. This value is different, though, than what's displayed on the other screen of
LeafSpy. It'll be interesting to see if and how this value changes with kWhrs & Ahrs. There's nothing
other than very basic physics and electronics here in these calculations.

 

[Turbo3]

Due to the number of problems being reported from people who cannot access the settings menu because their phone does not have a Menu button I am adding a Menu button function to the upper right corner of the screen.

The Samsung Galaxy S5 is one such phone.

Here is what it will look like. Note the three dash lines in the upper right corner. Tap that area and the menu comes up.

I will be placing a test version up shortly that has this fix plus the trip counter, option to not include charge in Wh counter, accuracy change for Elv/Speed graph and the Ah rating on screen 3.

Note that the Wh counter change and trip counter are not full tested yet so there could still be some issues with it. I will be adding in that a charge session is a separate "trip" so that information also gets recorded in the Triplog too.

 

[nerys]

Another suggestion. One i would like to see and could use.

Dual whr counters. Input and output.

So i can see how many whr or kwh did i buen today and how much did i add. With a reset button for each.

Loren. Turbo3 correct me if i am wrong

The problem with the ahr value is that it is not "actual" ahr but extrapolated. So not of much use as turbo sees it.

Did i understand thst right?

 

[Turbo3]

I added Battery Voltage to screen 3 if in Landscape mode.

I need to do some testing of the new Wh counter before I release the next test version. I will try to get that done later today. To support selectively not including charging into the Wh counter it has to be implemented a different way from the way it was.

 

[TimLee]

...Obviously one could do
the same correlation using kWhrs, but personally I find using Ahrs more meaningful data when
analyzing any battery capacity over time. Over time the Leaf's battery's output voltage will still
have the same basic values from a low to high SOC (~10-15% variation) as the battery ages,
but the Ahrs capacity will change more significantly as the battery ages, i.e. as in any application
where a battery is used over time.
...

Could you explain that further.
Both are indicative of stored energy.
I just do not understand why you consider Ahrs which is a less precise indicator that now varies in significance as the battery voltage drops with lower status of charge to be better.

I don't object to adding it, but it seems less precise than kWh :?:
What is the point :?:

 

[lorenfb]

I added Battery Voltage to screen 3 if in Landscape mode.

I need to do some testing of the new Wh counter before I release the next test version. I will try to get that done later today. To support selectively not including charging into the Wh counter it has to be implemented a different way from the way it was.

Very nice!

 

[Turbo3]

Test version 0.34.52 of Leaf Spy Pro has just been uploaded to Playstore. Should be available for install in about 90 minutes.

- Soft Menu key in top right corner.
- "Relative" Ah and pack voltage on screen 3
- GPS accuracy limit changed from 10 to 30 meters. Allows graphing Elv/speed with weaker GPS signals.
- Trip recorder and on-screen trip/charge timer (top of screen 4)
- Wh counter can be configured to display only drive energy and exclude charges.

If you would like to test any of these and are not already in the test group. Just send me the email address you used to purchase Leaf Spy Pro and I will add you to the test group.

 

[lorenfb]

...Obviously one could do
the same correlation using kWhrs, but personally I find using Ahrs more meaningful data when
analyzing any battery capacity over time. Over time the Leaf's battery's output voltage will still
have the same basic values from a low to high SOC (~10-15% variation) as the battery ages,
but the Ahrs capacity will change more significantly as the battery ages, i.e. as in any application
where a battery is used over time.
...

Could you explain that further.
Both are indicative of stored energy.
I just do not understand why you consider Ahrs which is a less precise indicator that now varies in significance as the battery voltage drops with lower status of charge to be better.

I don't object to adding it, but it seems less precise than kWh :?:
What is the point :?:

1. The present nomenclature when one discusses a battery capacity is to use the term of Ahrs especially
for an automotive battery. As an example, a typical 12 volts battery has about 80 Ahrs capacity. If the
off state current of all ECUs is about 50ma, then for 1/2 capacity for good starting the no-charge
max time is about 800 hrs or 33 days.
2. You state, "Ahrs which is a less precise indicator that now varies in significance as the battery voltage drops".
Yes, it's that the Ahrs is the significant variable of energy that varies as the vehicle is driven and
and as the battery ages versus the battery voltage which varies maybe 10% from full charge to a very low
charge and over the life of the battery.
3. Typically when one loads tests a battery, it's the current that's measured for a given voltage drop.
That test is an indication of the battery's capacity and health.
4. It's the Ahrs loss which results in loss of bars and not the decline of the battery voltage.
5. Since all BEVs operate at the same voltage as is the case for the standard ICE
voltage, it's more useful to discuss battery capacities in terms of Ahrs.
6. Using Ahrs as a measure of capacity eliminates the standardization, e.g. SAE, when defining the
exact voltage value to be used when calculating BEV energy for a comparative battery analysis.

As an example, my Leaf at 13K when fully charged has about 57 Ahrs. When it was new, it had about
60 Ahrs. Now when driving, the Leaf loses its first bar at about 53-54 Ahrs. Given that, I expect that when
the Leaf reaches about 24-25K (about 53-54 Ahrs), the 12th bar will be gone. So monitoring the Ahrs
provides a more direct approach to predicting range loss. A number of forum members now relate
the loss of their first bar to a Ahrs value.

 

[nerys]

Some devices have a barometer. Using that to track elevations changes would be immensly more accurate. Fall back on gps when no barometer is present.

 

[Pipcecil]

Since we had a cold snap, I have noticed an interesting behavior with the app. I had the DTE range set to change with ambient and battery temperature. My garage is warmer than it is outside (like 50's vs 20's). But as I drive outside and the temperature gauge changes, the app increases my range. I always thought (and confirm with 3 years of driving) that in colder weather (and battery) the range decreases even if you are not running any climate control. Am I incorrect? Even Tony's range chart modifies the range lower as the ambient temperature drops. So is this working as intended? How is the app calculating this information?

When you check that box the app uses Tony's formula.

To see what is going on it would be very helpful to have a log of that trip. Did you have logging turned on or can you duplicate the trip with logging enabled.

Normally I too would expect the range to decrease but I need to see all the data to verify what is going on. If the BMS was reporting an increase in SOC during the trip then that could override the formula and cause the range to increase or there could be a bug in my implementation of Tony's formula.

Unfortunately I did not have the logs turned on these past few days. But I will try this next morning. The only reason I noticed is the temperature sensor on my car (dunno if this is for all of the cars) lags and is slow to pick up outside temperature. It will slowly drop over 3 or so miles from my garage temp (in the 50's) to the ambient temp (in the 20's yesterday). With the temp box checked I could actually watch my range steadily increase as the car's reporting ambient temperature drop and stop when it finally bottom out. I would start the drive somewhere around 76 DTE when I pull out of the garage and when the car would finally register the correct outside temperature, I would have driven 2-3 miles and my DTE would have increased to ~80. That's ~6 mile positive swing for a 30 degree drop. After the temperature has bottomed out the range drops as normal (i.e. very accurate). It is directly associated when the car's ambient temperature gauge. I don't get any quick increases/decreases anywhere else in my morning commute, its only during the time when my car's temperature gauge changes significantly in the morning. I will try tomorrow morning, but it supposed to be warmer (in the middle 40's) so I might not see such a stark change.

 

[Turbo3]

Found the error in the Range calculation when ambient and battery temperatures are below 70F.

Test version 0.34.54 of Leaf Spy Pro has been uploaded with the fix.

Thanks to Pipcecil for noticing the problem and his detailed description of it.

 

[Turbo3]

I have a couple of reports of index out of range during command retry that cause Leaf Spy to stop working. That will be fixed in the next release.

 

[nerys]

something else interesting. I ran the battery pretty low getting to work last night (21'f out!!) so I decided to just run it down. so drove around hard for a bit and blasted the heater till I got below VLBW and then sat parked with the heater going till it turtled.

turns out LBW is 2.9kwh VLBW is just under 1.9kwh and turtle is .4kwh

the car "disabled the drivetrain" at just below .3kwhr ????? maybe

problem is the app stopped reporting at some point between .4 and .3 kwhr

interesting the drive train is disabled but the heater keeps working. I wanted to see what happens if I get to 0kwhr but it won't get that low before killing the motor.

then I noticed the watt hours used resettable figure was not changing. even though the heater was going it was not growing.

so leafspy either stopped receiving or stopped interpreting any data. I turned off the car at this point for fear of harming the battery somehow.

 

[Turbo3]

something else interesting. I ran the battery pretty low getting to work last night (21'f out!!) so I decided to just run it down. so drove around hard for a bit and blasted the heater till I got below VLBW and then sat parked with the heater going till it turtled.

turns out LBW is 2.9kwh VLBW is just under 1.9kwh and turtle is .4kwh

the car "disabled the drivetrain" at just below .3kwhr ????? maybe

problem is the app stopped reporting at some point between .4 and .3 kwhr

interesting the drive train is disabled but the heater keeps working. I wanted to see what happens if I get to 0kwhr but it won't get that low before killing the motor.

then I noticed the watt hours used resettable figure was not changing. even though the heater was going it was not growing.

so leafspy either stopped receiving or stopped interpreting any data. I turned off the car at this point for fear of harming the battery somehow.

Best thing would be to run an ELM trace while doing this test. Then I can see exactly what the car is reporting.

Is it still in this state? If so then take an ELM trace for a few minutes and send it to me. What model year Leaf?

 

[nerys]

No. Its charged now. If i ever get that low again and have opportunity i will try it.

2012 sv

 

[jlv]

Two small issues:
1. the "RESET" under the Wh display doesn't seem to be working in the latest version.
2. I started the app while my wife was driving, and when she was coasting (regen), the Wh display showed a "-0".

 

[Turbo3]

Two small issues:
1. the "RESET" under the Wh display doesn't seem to be working in the latest version.
2. I started the app while my wife was driving, and when she was coasting (regen), the Wh display showed a "-0".

1. Actually the internal counters were cleared. So if the count did not reset you were probably driving or had driven and the Leaf had not been cycled off yet. What you would see is the current or last trip count. The trip counter can not be cleared while driving or charging. It auto clears at the start of each drive or charge. The function of the reset button is different now that we have the concept of a trip. You can configure the trip counter to accumulate multiple trips. In that mode the Reset clears out all the old trip data but not the trip you are currently in. I have changed it so Reset will not show unless there is something you can reset.

2. The Wh counter is floating point so I think what you are seeing is caused by a value of say -0.23 which would display as -0. I have added code to move the floating point number to an integer so you will see 0 now.

 

[GerryAZ]

something else interesting. I ran the battery pretty low getting to work last night (21'f out!!) so I decided to just run it down. so drove around hard for a bit and blasted the heater till I got below VLBW and then sat parked with the heater going till it turtled.

turns out LBW is 2.9kwh VLBW is just under 1.9kwh and turtle is .4kwh

the car "disabled the drivetrain" at just below .3kwhr ????? maybe

problem is the app stopped reporting at some point between .4 and .3 kwhr

interesting the drive train is disabled but the heater keeps working. I wanted to see what happens if I get to 0kwhr but it won't get that low before killing the motor.

then I noticed the watt hours used resettable figure was not changing. even though the heater was going it was not growing.

so leafspy either stopped receiving or stopped interpreting any data. I turned off the car at this point for fear of harming the battery somehow.

I have run my 2011 down monthly to track battery capacity. The kWh remaining numbers you quoted for LBW, VLBW, Turtle, and Shutdown (main battery contactor opening) are correct. The Wh counter in LEAF SPY stops counting when the main contactor opens because the traction battery is no longer delivering energy. The heater will continue to supply warm air because the fluid reservoir is still warm, but the heating element is no longer energized. Once the main contactor opens, there is no other source of power except the 12-volt battery.

Just to be clear, there is not much energy available between Turtle and Shutdown. Turtle is usually 0.4 kWh remaining and Shutdown occurs with either 0.4 or 0.3 kWh remaining.

Gerry