LEAF advisory group

[darelldd]

Excuses for not picking him are bullshit. She knows it and Nissan knows it. Everyone who agreed to be on this idiotic panel knows it. Everyone who takes part without Phil is just a wannabe. Our community should not take part unless Phil is a part of this. Come on everyone, it is time to grow a pair..

What the hell, guys. Do you read what you've written before hitting the post button? Am I really being called an "idiot wannabe" by people who don't know me?

I have no "wannabe" desires. I'm not trying to make a name for myself. It turns out that I already AM what I want to be. What I do NOT want to be is a ridiculed member of an all-volunteer advisory board. As I am ignorant of Nissan's Wiley ways, somebody will have to tell me what the company's nefarious agenda is in having this board formed. On the one hand, they're seeking informed consumer input. On the other hand, they're being accused of all manner of under-handed behavior by the very group who wants the company to hear informed consumer input.

We are all familiar with Phil's accomplishments and knowledge. Does having Phil on the board properly acknowledge his standing in the LEAF community, and solve everything? Is that like the ONE thing that the group is up in arms about? Does the outpouring of animosity in this thread help anybody? Does it help the EV cause? Does it make Nissan cower in the corner and toe the line? Does it boost Phil's popularity? I suggest that we take all that vitrol, and turn it into something at least a little bit positive. Instead of questioning Nissan and Chelseas's ethics and hunting around for who to blame and hate - let's see what we can accomplish.

Being part of this panel doesn't mean that I have had some great award bestowed upon me for past excellence in LEAF reverse-engineering. In my case, it simply means that I have some EV consumer experience going back some years, and that sometimes I have relevant things to say in that regard. What have I won by being asked to join this panel? I get to donate a bunch of my time and effort in an attempt to further the EV cause. I did not win a popularity contest. I did not ask to be on the board. I certainly have other things to do with my time. I thought my time spend on this project could make a positive difference for the EV community. I thought that it could even be personally rewarding if the group can affect positive change.

Cheers,

 

[abasile]

For whatever it's worth, I would just like to say that this advisory board, with its current members, has my full vote of confidence. As far as I'm aware, all of the current members are intelligent and passionate in their support for EVs.

Not everyone has to contribute to the EV movement by being on this particular board at this particular point in time. Regardless of whether he's on this board or not, Phil's immense contributions speak for themselves, and undoubtedly have Nissan's attention.

Let's give the current board plenty of patience. Hopefully we are all in this for the long haul.

 

[Volusiano]

If we take this long to create a board, I wonder how long it takes to start engaging with Nissan and how long it'll take to get any desired outcome.

It's beginning to look like the board is a perfect diversionary tactic by Nissan to distract people to a different focus and keep them busy with things so Nissan can just sit back and relax and doesn't have to do anything and just blame it on waiting for the board to be put together and only has to deal with the board and not the public sentiment in general.

Many key questions have already been posed to Nissan months ago, like battery pricing, replacement, remedy for affected owners. Yet Nissan doesn't have to answer any of these questions anytime soon because they now have the appearance of waiting for the board to be formed, then schedule meetings and on and on and on...

 

[evchels]

Many key questions have already been posed to Nissan months ago, like battery pricing, replacement, remedy for affected owners. Yet Nissan doesn't have to answer any of these questions anytime soon because they now have the appearance of waiting for the board to be formed, then schedule meetings and on and on and on...

If anything it's the opposite, though technically one has nothing to do with the other.

I know this group has been asking these questions forever, and it's been about 5 weeks or so since Andy Palmer committed to get/give answers. I do know that he remains very personally invested in this issue, and that battery discussions are still being held within Nissan, though can't explain and won't make excuses as to why it's taking this long. I imagine large company bureaucracy is an issue, though I also get the impression they want to sort everything (potential remedy, any technical plan, etc.) and present it all at once rather than answer a question at a time. In any case, I continue to pester often- and repeatedly convey that little the adv board does will matter or be given a chance until Nissan answers these questions for you all, and we're not needed to make that happen. Sure, we'd want to weigh in and influence the longer term stuff (ie, what they plan to do in prep for next summer), but they already know the questions you want answers to now. The advisory group isn't holding up those answers in any way.

 

[thankyouOB]

thank you, Chelsea.
your answers are frank, direct, clear and reasonable.
if you are a front for a calculated obfuscation plan, you hide it extremely well.
i am taking you and your desire to improve the LEAF experience at face value.
kudos.

 

[nogajim]

My boss likes to say "Make me say no." (He will, I found out). There is no one more qualified from this forum than Phil. If his name is nominated and Nissan thinks there are conflicting interests, then they need not accept his nomination. But if they don't have a problem with him, he's the one most likely to suggest something to solve a problem with the current Leaf or make improvements to the next one. I can't help but think that before too long, someone on the board is going to think "I wish Phil was here". Now is the time to pick the best people you can get.

 

[TEG]

I guess some people assume that the board's job includes trying to give technical advice to Nissan - how to make future cars better, and what 'fixes' they should consider on current cars.
Nissan has legions of expert engineers. Perhaps they don't really want/need that.

But, it sounds like the reality is more that they just want help understanding customers. How to better sell existing product unchanged.

----

Personally, I am surprised that Nissan didn't stop selling cars in Arizona until the "lost bars" issue gets sorted out. Continuing to sell cars there, and start out with "everything is normal" response made me lose some confidence in their ability to make agile strategy changes.

 

[downeykp]

This was the whole point of my post yesterday. Why would he not be the first one picked? Then others could get the "We already have enough people from the area."
I do not agree with a later post that this is just a panel to help Nissan find there way through the sh*t storm that they created. Obviously, the engineers that Nissan really did muck up certain aspects of this car or we would not be where we are. But to think that someone is more qualified than Phil from a technical standpoint is just denying the obvious.

My boss likes to say "Make me say no." (He will, I found out). There is no one more qualified from this forum than Phil. If his name is nominated and Nissan thinks there are conflicting interests, then they need not accept his nomination. But if they don't have a problem with him, he's the one most likely to suggest something to solve a problem with the current Leaf or make improvements to the next one. I can't help but think that before too long, someone on the board is going to think "I wish Phil was here". Now is the time to pick the best people you can get.

 

[Stoaty]

I do not agree with a later post that this is just a panel to help Nissan find there way through the sh*t storm that they created. Obviously, the engineers that Nissan really did muck up certain aspects of this car or we would not be where we are. But to think that someone is more qualified than Phil from a technical standpoint is just denying the obvious.

The engineers probably knew this would happen, but sales/marketing had the final say on how the car would be designed. I doubt this is a surprise to them.

Technical expertise is probably not the primary qualification to be on the advisory board. As far as I know, Chelsea has complete say over who is on the board, and has her reasons for the picks she is making. Based on her background and reputation, I see no reason not to trust her judgment and see where things go. In the final analysis, we don't know if Nissan will act on any of the input anyway, so I think that waiting to see what happens is reasonable.

Finally, I don't think "we would not be where we are" includes you or me, as we live in areas with temperate to cool climates. The chances of your Leaf underperforming with respect to Nissan's statements about capacity are pretty small.

 

[N952JL]

For whatever it's worth, I would just like to say that this advisory board, with its current members, has my full vote of confidence. As far as I'm aware, all of the current members are intelligent and passionate in their support for EVs.

Not everyone has to contribute to the EV movement by being on this particular board at this particular point in time. Regardless of whether he's on this board or not, Phil's immense contributions speak for themselves, and undoubtedly have Nissan's attention.

Let's give the current board plenty of patience. Hopefully we are all in this for the long haul.

I personally don't know anyone on this so called board. As far as I'm concern only Phil has earned any real support from me base on his past work. Some of you have been in the EV business since the 90's and that is where you have built your reputations. Maybe even Phil. I'm not from CA. I'm not in the EV for the environment, that is just icing on the cake. I'm in it because I don't want American dollars going out of the country for oil! I started wanting a HICE. But was convince that EV was much more efficent. I want this group to succeed as I want the EV to succeed. But so far it does not have my vote of confidence. As far as I'm concern, no one on the board has any reputation except the one I have seen from following the different topics on MLF. Based on that Phil is the only one I've seen who has EARNED his reputation. But I support anything that will stop America's dependence on foreign Oil.

 

[Ingineer]

The engineers probably knew this would happen, but sales/marketing had the final say on how the car would be designed. I doubt this is a surprise to them.

Technical expertise is probably not the primary qualification to be on the advisory board. As far as I know, Chelsea has complete say over who is on the board, and has her reasons for the picks she is making. Based on her background and reputation, I see no reason not to trust her judgment and see where things go. In the final analysis, we don't know if Nissan will act on any of the input anyway, so I think that waiting to see what happens is reasonable.

Finally, I don't think "we would not be where we are" includes you or me, as we live in areas with temperate to cool climates. The chances of your Leaf underperforming with respect to Nissan's statements about capacity are pretty small.

I agree with everything you wrote Stoaty, Unfortunately Engineers never get to run the company. If they ever somehow do, sadly; they still have to play a executive role and not an engineering role. I bet engineering simply didn't have the money/technology to solve this problem, so it's "Good Enough to Ship™". Maybe Management decided to Gamble and roll pack replacements or Buybacks on these small number that are prematurely failing in hot climates. Maybe they were truly caught off-guard, Sadly; We may never know what!

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

My boss likes to say "Make me say no." (He will, I found out). There is no one more qualified from this forum than Phil. If his name is nominated and Nissan thinks there are conflicting interests, then they need not accept his nomination. But if they don't have a problem with him, he's the one most likely to suggest something to solve a problem with the current Leaf or make improvements to the next one. I can't help but think that before too long, someone on the board is going to think "I wish Phil was here". Now is the time to pick the best people you can get.

If someone needs my help on any aspect, I'll be more than happy to give my advice for free. I want EV's to succeed, and I also want the Leaf program to continue as well as improve! Nissan already asked for my help once, and I gave anything they wanted. I'll be happy to do it again!

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

Just to add: Nissan has never tried to stop me from doing all that I've done in any way, and have actually in fact have been supportive in some small ways. I do my best to support them in any way I can. At the same time I'm somehow managing to even eke out an acceptable living simply by upgrading their EVSE's, so in essence they are supporting me too! =)

Why wouldn't I want to return the favor? Of course, I'll be honest and share whatever I can share with the community. I always do as long as I think nobody will get hurt!

-Phil

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

The engineers probably knew this would happen, but sales/marketing had the final say on how the car would be designed. I doubt this is a surprise to them.

Technical expertise is probably not the primary qualification to be on the advisory board. As far as I know, Chelsea has complete say over who is on the board, and has her reasons for the picks she is making. Based on her background and reputation, I see no reason not to trust her judgment and see where things go. In the final analysis, we don't know if Nissan will act on any of the input anyway, so I think that waiting to see what happens is reasonable.

Finally, I don't think "we would not be where we are" includes you or me, as we live in areas with temperate to cool climates. The chances of your Leaf underperforming with respect to Nissan's statements about capacity are pretty small.

I agree with everything you wrote Stoaty, Unfortunately Engineers never get to run the company. If they ever somehow do, sadly; they still have to play a executive role and not an engineering role. I bet engineering simply didn't have the money/technology to solve this problem, so it's "Good Enough to Ship™". Maybe Management decided to Gamble and roll pack replacements or Buybacks on these small number that are prematurely failing in hot climates. Maybe they were truly caught off-guard, Sadly; We may never know what!

-Phil

this is a question i do NOT expect to find out by being on the board, but i have always suspected that Nissan knew about the heat issues and declined TMS based on cost and either expected changes in the market place which would have allowed them to offer pack replacements as easily as people change tires on their cars and "something" in the development process or supplier commitment or whatever has delayed or even eliminated that option in the plan

OR

They always did want to lease instead of selling LEAFs as a plan "B" when they found they could not sell gliders and then lease batteries.

This plan works because Nissan gets back lightly used LEAFs with degraded pack which they can swap (using the planned cheaper to produce packs) then release them at "near" new prices only to do the same 3 years later.

the 3rd lessee should be able to get the LEAF for $20,000 which is where the price point needs to be to open up a much larger niche to the product.

 

[downeykp]

Didn't Nissan raise the price on what you were paying for an EVSE a lot? No they didn't stop you but they made it harder for you to be flexible in what you were selling.
Correct me of I am wrong.

Just to add: Nissan has never tried to stop me from doing all that I've done in any way, and have actually in fact have been supportive in some small ways. I do my best to support them in any way I can. At the same time I'm somehow managing to even eke out an acceptable living simply by upgrading their EVSE's, so in essence they are supporting me too! =)

Why wouldn't I want to return the favor? Of course, I'll be honest and share whatever I can share with the community. I always do as long as I think nobody will get hurt!

-Phil

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Didn't Nissan raise the price on what you were paying for an EVSE a lot? No they didn't stop you but they made it harder for you to be flexible in what you were selling.
Correct me of I am wrong.

Just to add: Nissan has never tried to stop me from doing all that I've done in any way, and have actually in fact have been supportive in some small ways. I do my best to support them in any way I can. At the same time I'm somehow managing to even eke out an acceptable living simply by upgrading their EVSE's, so in essence they are supporting me too! =)

Why wouldn't I want to return the favor? Of course, I'll be honest and share whatever I can share with the community. I always do as long as I think nobody will get hurt!

-Phil

the timing of the price increase was suspect but i think it had more to do with exchange rates not being favorable and a price increase long over due. prices of any item that is low volume is generally way over priced and the EVSE is WAY over priced but then again; you maybe right

 

[KJD]

For whatever it's worth, I would just like to say that this advisory board, with its current members, has my full vote of confidence. As far as I'm aware, all of the current members are intelligent and passionate in their support for EVs.
Not everyone has to contribute to the EV movement by being on this particular board at this particular point in time. Regardless of whether he's on this board or not, Phil's immense contributions speak for themselves, and undoubtedly have Nissan's attention.
Let's give the current board plenty of patience. Hopefully we are all in this for the long haul.

I agree with this 100%. Lets give them a chance to do the job and see what happens.

 

[davewill]

the timing of the price increase was suspect but i think it had more to do with exchange rates not being favorable and a price increase long over due. prices of any item that is low volume is generally way over priced and the EVSE is WAY over priced but then again; you maybe right

I also suspected it had to do with an unplanned market for them. Nissan probably arranged for a certain number to be made, figuring they'd only be shipped with new cars, and a handful of replacements sold. Suddenly, Phil (and individuals) are snapping them up, and they have to have more made. Makes sense to raise the price, especially if the exchange rate was costing them money.

P.S. I find this acrimony acutely embarrassing. Chelsea and the others involved are part of OUR community and deserve our support for taking on what may prove to be a rather thankless task. Regardless of whether we agree with Chelsea's choices, we should be thanking her for taking this on. Thanks, Chelsea.

 

[surfingslovak]

Suddenly, Phil (and individuals) are snapping them up, and they have to have more made. Makes sense to raise the price, especially if the exchange rate was costing them money.

While I have no idea about what catalyzed the price change, as far as I know, the Panasonic EVSE is not unique to Nissan. Although the trickle cord we received with our Leafs has Nissan logo on it, I don't think that the device itself was custom built. It looks like the iMiEV might be using the same cord.

There is a similar situation with the ActiveE, where some drivers thought that the Lear EVSE was unique, and tailored to the car. It was not, and it looks like Lear is shipping the same cords to Fisker, and GM, and possibly others as well.

That said, I have to agree that the advisory board deserves the full support of this community. It obviously wouldn't exist without Chelsea, and I believe that there is a good reason she received this mandate. Apparently, a lot of thought was put into the selection process, which I think is appreciated by most. I certainly respect it, and wish everyone best of luck with their new mission. While criticism is to be expected on this forum, it would be good if the tone was at least somewhat measured.

 

[planet4ever]

P.S. I find this acrimony acutely embarrassing. Chelsea and the others involved are part of OUR community and deserve our support for taking on what may prove to be a rather thankless task. Regardless of whether we agree with Chelsea's choices, we should be thanking her for taking this on. Thanks, Chelsea.

Hear, hear! Well stated, Dave.

Ray