LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)
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IssacZachary
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Do we know what the EPA range rating will likely be, or is, for the Leaf 2?
jhm614
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Reading between the lines on InsideEVs, it will be 150ish for the 40? kWh battery and 200+ish for the 55-60 kWh battery. "Between the lines" = Jay Cole replies to article commenters. The question is will the bigger battery be available at launch. I hope/think it will but... I'm optimistic by natureIssacZachary said:
I still think a fully optioned SV with a 40kWh battery with a little discounting could be the sweet spot!
Nubo
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Interleaf said:
Oh dear lord. I've added you too. Sheesh. Go rant in the aether, about "lefties" and "womens' studies" all you like.
Will we really have to be physically present at one of these "events" to be able to register for a test drive in October...? Do I really have to order a Leaf without even sitting in one, for gods' sake?
DaveinOlyWA
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jhm614 said:Reading between the lines on InsideEVs, it will be 150ish for the 40? kWh battery and 200+ish for the 55-60 kWh battery. "Between the lines" = Jay Cole replies to article commenters. The question is will the bigger battery be available at launch. I hope/think it will but... I'm optimistic by natureIssacZachary said:
this assumes current efficiency which "should be" a mistake. LEAF II is supposed to be more aero, higher efficiency drive train. how much so? anyone's guess there but Hyundai showed how much you can get if you try hard enough.
But using formula and various leaked capacity estimates of 38.4 kwh usable gives us 153 miles @ 4 miles per kwh
IssacZachary
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DaveinOlyWA said:jhm614 said:Reading between the lines on InsideEVs, it will be 150ish for the 40? kWh battery and 200+ish for the 55-60 kWh battery. "Between the lines" = Jay Cole replies to article commenters. The question is will the bigger battery be available at launch. I hope/think it will but... I'm optimistic by natureIssacZachary said:
this assumes current efficiency which "should be" a mistake. LEAF II is supposed to be more aero, higher efficiency drive train. how much so? anyone's guess there but Hyundai showed how much you can get if you try hard enough.
But using formula and various leaked capacity estimates of 38.4 kwh usable gives us 153 miles @ 4 miles per kwh
I wish I had an Aptera...
jhm614
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Wow... Remember that video of the prototype racing around the track and the door flying open? Did they ever get an EV version working or were they all ice?IssacZachary said:
Aptera-related trivia... the GID measure measurement (in LEAF Spy and others) is named after Gary G from the Aptera Forum...
Edit... Ugh. Now I'm making off topic comments. Okay, back on topic.
I wish one of the Drive Electic appearances was going to be close to Dallas. I guess I'll have to start lurking around the Nissan Credit HQ in Irving to see if they bring a demo by...
It's been awhile since I've posted, but I am looking forward to LEAF 2.0, as are many of you. This particular post is in response to many prior posts that have speculated that the SL will have a larger battery due to its $7,000 price premium to the S. The price premium is actually closer to $6,000 (S - $29,990 vs. SL - $36,200 according to the Autobytel leak). Also, both of these prices are less than the current 30 kWh 2017 versions (S - $30,680 vs. SL - $36,790). So we are actually getting price reductions across the board, along with a bigger battery. The SV trim level actually drops from $34,200 to $32,490 - or $1,710, which might make it the value proposition of the three. You will note that the current 2017 price premium is $6,110 more for the SL than the S, so the price difference grows only $100 between S and SL trim levels for 2018 with improved features. So what does all this mean? In my view, it means that we will get a 40 kWh battery across the board, which would be consistent with the current pricing structure. $100 will not pay for another 20 kWh of capacity.
I was also hoping for a 60 kWh battery, but I just don't see where they can put any more capacity from a physical standpoint. They've gone from 24 kWh to 30 kWh in the original case, and they can probably get that to 40 kWh in a similar sized or slightly larger case under the new car with chemistry and packaging improvements. But to go from 40 kWh to 60 kWh requires a lot more room. The new car, if the leak can be deemed accurate, which I think it probably is, will be only .4 inch taller than the existing car and the wheelbase is identical to the 2017. Which brings me to my last point.
I too, as others have already mentioned, believe that they took the existing platform and changed the sheetmetal. I know what's been said, and I know what's been written. I also wrote that I expected a 60 kWh battery in LEAF 2.0. But when I see this new car, that's what I see - the existing platform with improved styling, a bigger battery and an updated interior. I would love to see a LEAF with a 60 kWh battery, but I just don't see how it can be this one. Front headroom is identical to the current car. Four tenths of an inch difference in overall height is not enough room to fit twenty more kWh. With Nissan's typical update cycle, that means we may not see a bigger battery for two to three years. I hope I'm wrong and that both packaging and chemistry have improved dramatically. I guess we'll see.
I was also hoping for a 60 kWh battery, but I just don't see where they can put any more capacity from a physical standpoint. They've gone from 24 kWh to 30 kWh in the original case, and they can probably get that to 40 kWh in a similar sized or slightly larger case under the new car with chemistry and packaging improvements. But to go from 40 kWh to 60 kWh requires a lot more room. The new car, if the leak can be deemed accurate, which I think it probably is, will be only .4 inch taller than the existing car and the wheelbase is identical to the 2017. Which brings me to my last point.
I too, as others have already mentioned, believe that they took the existing platform and changed the sheetmetal. I know what's been said, and I know what's been written. I also wrote that I expected a 60 kWh battery in LEAF 2.0. But when I see this new car, that's what I see - the existing platform with improved styling, a bigger battery and an updated interior. I would love to see a LEAF with a 60 kWh battery, but I just don't see how it can be this one. Front headroom is identical to the current car. Four tenths of an inch difference in overall height is not enough room to fit twenty more kWh. With Nissan's typical update cycle, that means we may not see a bigger battery for two to three years. I hope I'm wrong and that both packaging and chemistry have improved dramatically. I guess we'll see.
I'm not really expecting a 60kwh battery in the early 2018 SL either, but I see problems with both of your points. First, the SL is priced about $7k more than the SV, and comparing price differentials with the previous generation has limitations on utility. $6k should be able to buy another 20kwh of capacity with no problem, because it would just be a question of adding to the 40kwh pack, not adding a second whole pack. As for the space issue, there is room under there for a spare tire in the Gen 1 Leaf! Some of that space has to be reserved for crumple zone use, but not, I suspect, all of it. In short, I think the 60kwh pack won't be here until 2018, but not because it's too expensive or won't fit. I'm guessing that it didn't perform well enough in early field testing.
IssacZachary
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LEAFguy said:
Having a bigger battery definitely has its perks especially with Tesla. Tesla not only has big batteries, but their charging infrastructure seems to put out more charge the bigger their batteries get, therefore making those big batteries worthwhile.
But Nissan depends on the existing public charging infrastructure. There may be improvements in charging speed here and there, but for that to open up across the nation/world I don't see happening. So what does that leave us? Not much of an improvement if Nissan puts in a 60, 80 or 100kWh battery. Why? Because although yes, you'd get those extra miles out of the first leg of a trip, after that you can't travel any faster than in a 24kWh Leaf. Each charging station is going to charge at the same rate no matter what, except when charging stations are so far apart that a 24 or 30kWh Leaf has to be left charging up to its top end up past 80% where charging speed slows down.
I know where I live a lot of my charging on trips has to be level one in a Leaf. What difference is it going to make if it has a 24 or a 60kWh battery. Well, the first leg will be longer. After that, I still have to charge all night. And in a 60kWh Leaf I'm only going to get half a battery charge with that all night charge. At the level 2 stations over here most of them seem to have a 2 or 4 hour limit off of 40amp (32amp reality) circuits. What good does that do for a person that has to take 8 hours to fully charge his battery?
Because of these reasons I feel a 40kWh for a Leaf is plenty. In my opinion it is much better to improve aerodynamics and efficiency in order to extend range. If my Leaf could do 6 or 8 miles per kWh average then I'd be able to make it places much more quickly because I'd only need half the charging. That's basically what I meant when I referenced the Aptera. At least there will be other EV options out there for those who wanted the Leaf to be something else.
A LEAF needs to be a Leading Environmentally-friendly Affordable Family-car. Now if they can squeeze in a 60kWh battery in there, then great, I'll be able to let that the battery reach 28% SOH before it no longer fits my needs. But personally I'd be happy with a 40kWh battery.
NIssan is not designing the LEAF for Gunnison because that is not where most of the cars will be sold. Think extended-urban with a radial range of 50-75 miles, 100+ miles if L2 destination charging is available.IssacZachary said:
The LEAF can be a very good second car if it had a decent battery and prices were ~ $20k out of pocket.+
DNAinaGoodWay
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A decent analysis. But then, how does Bolt fit in 60 kWh when it's, iirr, smaller?
DaveinOlyWA
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DNAinaGoodWay said:
have you seen its storage space? Bolt is 16 cu feet verses LEAF 23.6
First, the price differential from S to SL is for feature content currently, and will continue to be for feature content in 2018 and beyond. You pay more money, you get more stuff. It doesn't matter if it's electric or gas, this has always been true. For example, the BMW 320i starts at $33,450. The 330i has the same drivetrain yet starts at $38,750. More features cost money. That's not to say that if and when they do come out with a larger battery, you won't be able to buy an S trim level for the same money but it won't have all the SL goodies.LeftieBiker said:
Your second point is more interesting. Yes, there is some room under the cargo area. I don't know that it's enough for an extra 20 kWh of capacity, but there's some. Interestingly enough, this would also go toward improving the overall weight balance of the car, as the current bias is front-heavy. They would need to increase the rear spring rates and probably make other minor suspension mods, but this redesign could have taken those ideas into consideration. This could also actually improve handling characteristics by improving weight balance. There are rumors of a 60 kWh design making a late entry but I am reluctant to buy into rumors. This idea, however, does have merit.
The vast majority of electric car owners (not just LEAF owners) own multiple vehicles. When taking a trip, they take the gas car. This behavior will likely not change anytime soon. I've written before that an electric car is a tool, just like a gas car. If it's not the right tool for the job, buy another tool. Many electric car owners live in large suburban areas and extending the range from 150 to 200 miles opens up many more options for them in their daily or weekend activities.IssacZachary said:
I think it's a smart move for Nissan to finally move away from developing their own batteries. It took huge resources and significant time commitments that I feel would have been better spent thinking about the car itself and the people that drive them. Let the battery guys make batteries, and let the car guys make cars.Foschas said:
As DaveinOlyWA said, the Bolt has significantly less cargo space, but that's only part of the answer. LEAF has 41.2" front head room while the Bolt is only 39.7". Interestingly, the Bolt has slightly more rear head room than LEAF. I haven't looked closely at the Bolt back seat, but sometimes automakers increase rear head room by lowering the seat toward the floor so back seat passengers knees are higher. I don't know if that's the case here. Looking at overall vehicle height, Bolt is almost 2" taller. All of these are contributing factors.DNAinaGoodWay said:
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