July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

[SanDust]

LOL, how much belching does the tow truck that rescues turtled Leaf's guzzle?

This isn't a very good argument. We had a few people flatbed their Leafs early on but Nissan recalibrated the SOC meter and since then I don't think we've seen a single instance, other than those who are pushing it in the "name of science".

The much better argument would be that Leaf drivers pollute more when they're not driving their Leafs. The fact is that unless you don't have a life you can't use a Leaf for all your travel. The range is just way too limited. For some car travel the Leaf driver isn't a Leaf driver they're an X driver, where X is some other ICE vehicle. If you look at voltstats the median Volt driver is getting 175 MPG and a third are getting at least 275 MPG. If you compare that to an ICE getting 30 MPG, you'll use less, maybe even a lot less, gas going 10,000 miles in a Volt than you would driving a Leaf and using an ICE vehicle to go 2,000 miles. That doesn't even count all the energy needed to manufacturer the second vehicle. I've just never understood the logic of thinking that driving two cars, one a BEV and one an ICE, is morally or practically superior to driving an EREV. Makes no sense.

The other argument is that given how much pollution a supertanker creates, a Leaf made in Japan and shipped to the US is likely responsible for more pollution before you take delivery than the Volt will create in its lifetime.

 

[TomT]

For us, it is very simple: There is no EREV or PHEV (or even HEV) currently available that can do what we need... Certainly there will be in the future, but not now. Thus we currently have one ICE and one BEV.

I've just never understood the logic of thinking that driving two cars, one a BEV and one an ICE, is morally or practically superior to driving an EREV.(

 

[mksE55]

[/quote] The much better argument would be that Leaf drivers pollute more when they're not driving their Leafs. The fact is that unless you don't have a life you can't use a Leaf for all your travel. The range is just way too limited. For some car travel the Leaf driver isn't a Leaf driver they're an X driver, where X is some other ICE vehicle. If you look at voltstats the median Volt driver is getting 175 MPG and a third are getting at least 275 MPG. If you compare that to an ICE getting 30 MPG, you'll use less, maybe even a lot less, gas going 10,000 miles in a Volt than you would driving a Leaf and using an ICE vehicle to go 2,000 miles. That doesn't even count all the energy needed to manufacturer the second vehicle. I've just never understood the logic of thinking that driving two cars, one a BEV and one an ICE, is morally or practically superior to driving an EREV. Makes no sense.

The other argument is that given how much pollution a supertanker creates, a Leaf made in Japan and shipped to the US is likely responsible for more pollution before you take delivery than the Volt will create in its lifetime. [/quote]


I think your logic is flawed. first the BEV gets 100,000 MPG. theory. it uses no gas. so even at 175mpg it makes alot more than any leaf ever will. 2nd my second ice only gets 2000-3000 miles now. thats down from 15,000. Your Volt at 175mpg will make alot more over 15000 miles. Do the math , it does not add up. energy and cost of 2nd vehicle is a non issue. I HAVE A SECOND VEHICLE YOU DONT. if you live in Russia and only get one car then maybe that statement has some value. With your train of thought, JAY LENO is the most polluting man on earth with all his ICE vehicles. NOT , 1 person can only drive one car. just total the miles in each vehicle and you get the information. BEV with limited ICE use is less than any ICE period. if you try and pick a certain situation , I can pick one where the BEV never goes out of range and hence will never use GAS. ZERO EMISSIONS . says it right on the car.

 

[EvansvilleLeaf]

If Volt drivers are getting 175mpg they are doing exceptionally little driving beyond the Leaf's capability, since to go as far as a Leaf can before recharging, a Volt would have to burn at least one gallon of gas to go 85 miles (my norm for the Leaf - others do far better). The only way to get 175mpg on average is to do an awful lot of 45-50 mile days, where the Volt runs almost entirely on the battery and the Leaf would run entirely on it, obviously.

The Volt does indeed have an advantage over the Leaf. A very big one in that you can run a lot on battery power but still do all your travel in one car. But that big advantage once used automatically means your car is getting well under 3 digits mpg. The second you are at Leaf range it's 80mpg and drops like a rock after that.

I do about 3000 miles a year in 6 long trips of 500miles or so in a terribly uneconomical ICE but one way more enjoyable for the purpose than a Volt - a Mustang GT convertible. It gets 20 mpg and I thus burn about 150 gallons.

The Volt on these trips would do 40 miles on EV and then 460 at 40mpg x 6 trips and thus burn 69 gallons. Far better indeed.

BUT I also do 65 mile days three times a week to pursue a hobby of mine (the other 4 days are well within Volt range). Never a chance of a Leaf fail. The Volt would burn 5/8 of a gallon each trip however, adding 97.5 gallons and thus exceeding my total gas usage in a far more fun car for long trips.

Surely different usage patterns are possible, but my number of long trips is not extreme in either direction and nor are my commutes. I calculate the Volt would burn 166.5 gallons in my very normal range mileage total of approx 17k per year, making it just exceed 100 mpg. Impressive. But I use less gas overall in a Leaf and a convertible muscle car.

To get a Volt to more than 175mpg you obviously have to ditch a lot of the long trips, which reduces the advantage the Volt offers in the first place.

 

[GRA]

Which is of course why they should be installed around areas with large numbers of BEVs, as a demo/seeding project. No one denies that QCs are Band-aids, but Band-aids are very useful. As mkjayakumar pointed out, increasing effective BEV range by 50-100% now while we await cheaper batteries opens up the feasibility of BEVs for more people. If QCs need some subsidies at the moment, so be it. I'd rather see government subsidies go to (smart) infrastructure than the cars themselves, as the typical BEV buyer is well able to pay full price. Of course, only the enthusiasts are likely to be willing to do so, and IMO that market has just about reached saturation level. Mainstream buyers are unlikely to move until there's major improvement in the gas price/battery price ratio.

Huh? Leaf owners aren't willing to pay full price for L3.

I know, which is why I suggest subsidizing the L3s rather than the cars.

How long do you think the government should subsidize stations at $25 a pop for 12K Leafs, probably half of which aren't near a L3 station. The country is leaning really Right, Romney has EV, solar and green projects in general in his sights, so the EV community better hope he doesn't win. I'm guessing the first thing he'd do is cut any subsidies for CHAdeMO.

I don't disagree with your analysis of what's likely to happen. That being said, if I were dictator I would means-test the federal subsidy, take the money saved by that and use some of it to provide an up-front rebate so that people lower-down the economic scale could consider EVs, and use the rest to subsidize L3 installation and use for say 3 years around those metro areas with high sales.

Currently, AIUI the federal subsidy applies to 1.2 million cars (6 companies each producing 200,000 cars @ $7,500/car), or a potential total tax loss of $9 billion. $1-200 million of that would be more than enough. I'm assuming the awards would be competitively bid, and require matching state and/or local funds, i.e. no free rides. And by all means let's design the EVSEs so they're either dual standard or can easily be converted.

 

[DANandNAN]

Dude, you keep going on about this turtle rescue, give it a rest! The vast majority of us drive this car within it's limits and have never had to be towed. I know it's hard for someone like you to understand, but the turtle is not a big part of our lives.

When you drive your Volt on gasoline you are just another smoke belching gas guzzler.

LOL, how much belching does the tow truck that rescues turtled Leaf's guzzle?

LOL, no one is saying it's a daily occurrence, no one is saying that Leaf owners do it on purpose, but turtling does happen.

 

[DANandNAN]

LOL, how much belching does the tow truck that rescues turtled Leaf's guzzle?

This isn't a very good argument. We had a few people flatbed their Leafs early on but Nissan recalibrated the SOC meter and since then I don't think we've seen a single instance, other than those who are pushing it in the "name of science".

The much better argument would be that Leaf drivers pollute more when they're not driving their Leafs. The fact is that unless you don't have a life you can't use a Leaf for all your travel. The range is just way too limited. For some car travel the Leaf driver isn't a Leaf driver they're an X driver, where X is some other ICE vehicle. If you look at voltstats the median Volt driver is getting 175 MPG and a third are getting at least 275 MPG. If you compare that to an ICE getting 30 MPG, you'll use less, maybe even a lot less, gas going 10,000 miles in a Volt than you would driving a Leaf and using an ICE vehicle to go 2,000 miles. That doesn't even count all the energy needed to manufacturer the second vehicle. I've just never understood the logic of thinking that driving two cars, one a BEV and one an ICE, is morally or practically superior to driving an EREV. Makes no sense.

The other argument is that given how much pollution a supertanker creates, a Leaf made in Japan and shipped to the US is likely responsible for more pollution before you take delivery than the Volt will create in its lifetime.

Why do you think it's not happening? Because folks aren't posting about it here? I don't think the vast majority of folks would.

 

[DANandNAN]

I think your logic is flawed. first the BEV gets 100,000 MPG. theory. it uses no gas. so even at 175mpg it makes alot more than any leaf ever will. 2nd my second ice only gets 2000-3000 miles now. thats down from 15,000. Your Volt at 175mpg will make alot more over 15000 miles. Do the math , it does not add up. energy and cost of 2nd vehicle is a non issue. I HAVE A SECOND VEHICLE YOU DONT. if you live in Russia and only get one car then maybe that statement has some value. With your train of thought, JAY LENO is the most polluting man on earth with all his ICE vehicles. NOT , 1 person can only drive one car. just total the miles in each vehicle and you get the information. BEV with limited ICE use is less than any ICE period. if you try and pick a certain situation , I can pick one where the BEV never goes out of range and hence will never use GAS. ZERO EMISSIONS . says it right on the car.

I think, if we're going to go through all of this, then we should also consider the expense and waste that went into your ICE.

 

[jackal]

LOL, no one is saying it's a daily occurrence, no one is saying that Leaf owners do it on purpose, but turtling does happen.

ICE runs out of gas too. Not saying it's a daily occurence, but it does happen too.

If you really like this subject so so much...please create a blog or website or forum dedicated to turtles. I am sure you will have lots of fans there.

Just stop trolling your turtle message because no one's a fan here. All the leaf owners here knows the limitations of the Leaf and how to deal with it. Please. Stop. Thanks.

 

[DANandNAN]

I don't disagree with your analysis of what's likely to happen. That being said, if I were dictator I would means-test the federal subsidy, take the money saved by that and use some of it to provide an up-front rebate so that people lower-down the economic scale could consider EVs, and use the rest to subsidize L3 installation and use for say 3 years around those metro areas with high sales.

Currently, AIUI the federal subsidy applies to 1.2 million cars (6 companies each producing 200,000 cars @ $7,500/car), or a potential total tax loss of $9 billion. $1-200 million of that would be more than enough. I'm assuming the awards would be competitively bid, and require matching state and/or local funds, i.e. no free rides. And by all means let's design the EVSEs so they're either dual standard or can easily be converted.

How would it help things if there were lower income folks, driving Leaf's? I don't know what the average Leaf owners income is, but I imagine it's at least mid 5 to low 6 figures. And, there's no one that wants to pay. How will adding more users lower demand charges once your subsidy runs out?

I would think that your first goal as dictator would be installing a larger, secondary battery pack in each Leaf since you've said that the limited range is seen as a detraction. Or, why not give each Leaf a back-up generator they could tow behind them?

 

[DANandNAN]

LOL, no one is saying it's a daily occurrence, no one is saying that Leaf owners do it on purpose, but turtling does happen.

ICE runs out of gas too. Not saying it's a daily occurence, but it does happen too.

If you really like this subject so so much...please create a blog or website or forum dedicated to turtles. I am sure you will have lots of fans there.

Just stop trolling your turtle message because no one's a fan here. All the leaf owners here knows the limitations of the Leaf and how to deal with it. Please. Stop. Thanks.

Absolutely it happens to ICE. I use to see it at least once a week. But, it's not called turtling when it's an ICE because it's a 20 second fix. No. Flat. Bed. Required.

 

[jackal]

But, it's not called turtling when it's an ICE because it's a 20 second fix. No. Flat. Bed. Required.

It's only a 20 seconds fix when you already have spare fuel can or AAA by your side. We all know the time to get those and it isn't counted in seconds. Point taken anyways. Can we move on now?

 

[Randy]

Hey guys,
We've had the thread reported as going far off topic...Can we get back to the topic at hand and take future off-topic postings to their appropriate threads? I know, I'm guilty of this myself, but the board users and I would appreciate it...

Thanks, Randy

 

[smkettner]

I was looking at the graph on post 1 and it seems a little behind.... especially for Japan and worldwide sales.

 

[hill]

When you drive your Volt on gasoline you are just another smoke belching gas guzzler.

LOL, how much belching does the tow truck that rescues turtled Leaf's guzzle?

So much emphasis on turtling and turtle bashing ... even in your signature, as though drivers running out of fuel/energy is not a phenomona of ALL cars ... whether ICE, EV, or the Volt hybrid. I've read of Volt owners who've managed to run empty of both gas, then electricity. So are you saying the Volt doesn't even provide the luxury of turtle when its last remaining fuel source (electricity) runs out? That's too bad. I can't imagine GM failing to engineer that safety feature into their hybrid. "The Volt can't be turtled" seems hardly a thing to boast about, when electricity is the last fuel ... and it's all gone.

.

 

[BrainDonor]

Any May sales numbers for LEAF and/or Volt yet?

 

[adric22]

Any May sales numbers for LEAF and/or Volt yet?

Don't know.. but when we do get the numbers, I hope somebody updates the charge on the first page of the thread. It is a few months old.

 

[palmermd]

Don't know.. but when we do get the numbers, I hope somebody updates the charge on the first page of the thread. It is a few months old.

April numbers are on the first post, but it just did not make it to the chart.

 

[scottf200]

via frankydude on gm-volt.com

And the numbers are: (rolling drums....)
U.S. deliveries for May: 1680
Calendar year to date deliveries: 7057
Hamtramck's May Volt production : 4061
Hamtramck's May Ampera production: 934
Total calendar year Volt for 2012 model production: 9156
Total model year 2012 Volt production: 20397
Total calendar year Ampera production for 2012 model: 4316
Total model year 2012 Ampera production: 6921
Canadian deliveries: unknown yet.
<snip>
The deliveries numbers seems a bit low to me, but this is related to the inventory shortage due to the
5 weeks shutdown of Hamtramck.

from Ziv on gm-volt.com

Volt Production for May at 1680.
Not great but given the shut down, probably to be expected.
7057 CYTD over the 2184 delivered by this time last year. This is just US deliveries not Canada or Europe.
Follow the tab on the right for the breakout.
http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Jun/gmsales.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Leaf May 2012 - 510 CYTD - 2613.
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/...download/9db78517-9ff9-4e5d-b016-ead6038f1e2c

Leaf sale just started here, but no tv, radio advertisement for Leaf at all, but plenty for Volt