July 16 Survey Email

[planet4ever]

It is ridiculous that Nissan offers only one EVSE price option at $2200 installed for such a laughable benefit at 3.3kwh. I'm going to bet this is very short lived and the early buyers who don't have EV experience will get a sour taste when they learn the new chargers are far better and not upgradable.

Aren't you confusing things here? The EVSE is not going to restrict you to 3.3kW. (Let alone 3 kWh, which I will assume was a typo.) If I remember correctly, Nissan is insisting that the EVSE be connected to a dedicated 40A circuit. Downrating that the required 20% for a continuous load, you have 0.8 * 40 * 240 = 7.68kW, or 7.04kW even at 220v, which is still comfortably more than 6.6kW.

So, next winter when you plug your EVSE into the Leaf it is going to tell the car, "you're good for up to 32A." But the computer inside the Leaf is going to shake its head and think, "That's nice, but the charger Nissan installed under the back seat here is only good for 16A." Later, when you trade your Leaf in on a Gen 2 model with a 6.6kW charger, and plug into that car, the EVSE will still be saying 32A, but the Gen 2 computer will say, "Oh, yeah! Turbocharge(*) here we come."

See? Nothing wrong after all with that $2200 gadget you are complaining about.

* Computers are silly that way. They don't realize that, for wetware, certain terms may trigger previous associations that go back to prehistoric times.

 

[mwalsh]

Interesting bit on expected replacement battery costs in 2020, just about when we could be considering getting a replacement - 100 mile pack = ~$5000

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/20/doe-estimates-100-mile-automotive-batteries-will-cost-just-5-00/

 

[Nubo]

Interesting bit on expected replacement battery costs in 2020, just about when we could be considering getting a replacement - 100 mile pack = ~$5000

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/20/doe-estimates-100-mile-automotive-batteries-will-cost-just-5-00/

Well, that's certainly encouraging. But 55Kg ??? I can believe the efficiencies of mass production will bring down the cost, but a 55Kg pack means a major technological breakthrough. Which may well happen, but it's not reasonable to "predict" how/when such breakthroughs will happen.

 

[mwalsh]

More nuggets:

"...According to Ms. Zachary, Nissan will begin taking “hard orders” on the Leaf in August and will announce the (battery) warranty deal by then...."

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/nissan-questions-consumers-about-leaf-battery-warranty/

 

[Dav]

One thing to consider is that "Super-Off-Peak" utility rates only happen a few hours per night.

My apologies for not being more specific. I am in SDG&E territory (San Diego) where "Super Off-Peak" is midnight to 5am for EV-TOU, the rate I had.

I did not mean for everyone to assume their particular situation might be similarly affected.

 

[AndyH]

More nuggets:

"...According to Ms. Zachary, Nissan will begin taking “hard orders” on the Leaf in August and will announce the (battery) warranty deal by then...."

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/21/nissan-questions-consumers-about-leaf-battery-warranty/

Nice job. I was going to point to this article as well. Instead I'll ask a couple of questions. If:

According to Katherine Zachary, a Nissan spokeswoman, the company’s survey went to 16,000 holders of $99 Leaf reservations in the United States, as well as a sampling of “hand wavers” who have expressed interest in the car.

Then where's my survey?

But some posters on Leafowner.com want more protection.

And how did this forum get attention? Aren't we the largest and most active Leaf forums by a large margin?

 

[AndyH]

planet4ever - sorry I missed this earlier.

If someone wants an EV...

In the real world I agee that's there's some overlap. That's unfortunate, because the Volt isn't an EV - it's a hybrid. It's competition is the Prius and Insight and other hybrids. Only the GM marketing machine is trying to wrap a hybrid in EV clothes and sell it to us. :evil:

If I'm shopping for an EV I know enough to shop for something without a tailpipe.

I don't think it's in EVers best interest to fall-into GM's marketing and lump the Volt into the pool with 'real' EVs.

I disagree strongly. The Volt is both a 'real' EV and a hybrid. Most days I drive less than 40 miles. On those days the Volt, should I get one, would be a pure EV. If I were to drive 100 miles one day, the Volt would be an EV for 40 miles and a hybrid for 60 miles.

Well...sorta. Everything in this physical world seems to be based on definitions. Tailpipes mean EPA rules and a range of other things that 'real' EVs don't have to worry with - like air filters and oil changes. Folks can add batteries to their Prius, install electronics that allows them to take control of the larger battery, and get up to 42 miles of electric-only range (sound familiar?) and at the end of the day they're driving a hybrid -- and they won't try to tell anyone otherwise.

Even the EV Project folks seem to understand:

What is a PHEV?
A PHEV, or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, has both an electric battery and a gasoline engine. PHEVs run on an electric charge and convert to gasoline when the battery runs down.

Now, the truth is, I have decided not to get a Volt, and I am going to get a Leaf. But I know in my heart that if I expect I may drive as much as 100 miles in one day, I am going to leave the Leaf at home and take my wife's Prius. That means I would use more gas on that day by having a Leaf than I would by having a Volt. (Unless the Volt uses as much gas in 60 miles as the Prius in 100 miles, which I doubt.)
<snips>
So stop knocking the Volt. I want it to succeed. I just don't happen to want it for myself.

I'm not knocking the Volt - it'll succeed or fail regardless of what I think. Sure - there are drivers for which this will be a better match than an EV. I'm 'knocking' that the marketing folks either inside or outside GM are trying to confuse the market and take share away from REAL EVs rather than positioning their product along side other hybrid vehicles where it belongs. I hope you agree that those are two different things.

 

[bowthom]

Hello all,
FYI - doing some calculations on battery life: (considered 80% of capacity remaining)
1. If lithium batteries are cycled at 70% capacity they will cycle >800 times (Kokam)
a. At 100 miles per cycle that’s 80,000 miles
2. Batteries cycled at 50% capacity will cycle >2500 times (Kokam)
a. At 70 miles per cycle that’s 175,000 miles.
3. Batteries cycled less than 50% capacity will cycle >3000 times. That’s 8.2 years if you charge every day. The battery has an 8-year warranty so it is guaranteed for its full-engineered lifespan.

So it would seem that staying in that 50% to 40% capacity cycle will net the greatest life / miles of usage, bang for the buck so to speak. Constantly topping off the batteries will not gain you anything except an always-full range. It may, in fact, lessen the amount of miles you can drive.

 

[bowthom]

Interesting bit on expected replacement battery costs in 2020, just about when we could be considering getting a replacement - 100 mile pack = ~$5000

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/20/doe-estimates-100-mile-automotive-batteries-will-cost-just-5-00/

Well, that's certainly encouraging. But 55Kg ??? I can believe the efficiencies of mass production will bring down the cost, but a 55Kg pack means a major technological breakthrough. Which may well happen, but it's not reasonable to "predict" how/when such breakthroughs will happen.

I was reading an article 6 months ago (where escapes me at the moment) that said a researcher has created a nano matrix cathode that has 10 times the lithium saturation of current batteries. He is now working on the anode and IF he succeeds, batteries will improve by an order of magnitude. That equates to a 200 pound pack delivering a 200 mile range. Such things are in the near future.
Interesting that replacement batteries will cost $5k, that's about the cost of a new engine in your ICE vehicle. At least EV's won't have to replace the transmission.

 

[AndyH]

Hello all,
FYI - doing some calculations on battery life: (considered 80% of capacity remaining)
1. If lithium batteries are cycled at 70% capacity they will cycle >800 times (Kokam)
a. At 100 miles per cycle that’s 80,000 miles
2. Batteries cycled at 50% capacity will cycle >2500 times (Kokam)
a. At 70 miles per cycle that’s 175,000 miles.
3. Batteries cycled less than 50% capacity will cycle >3000 times. That’s 8.2 years if you charge every day. The battery has an 8-year warranty so it is guaranteed for its full-engineered lifespan.

So it would seem that staying in that 50% to 40% capacity cycle will net the greatest life / miles of usage, bang for the buck so to speak. Constantly topping off the batteries will not gain you anything except an always-full range. It may, in fact, lessen the amount of miles you can drive.

Except these aren't Kokam cells with a 800 cycle life and that makes all the difference! There is no need to limit modern lithium to 50% when one can get much more than 100,000 miles at 80% use and more with 70%.

 

[LEAFfan]

I disagree strongly. The Volt is both a 'real' EV and a hybrid. Most days I drive less than 40 miles. On those days the Volt, should I get one, would be a pure EV. If I were to drive 100 miles one day, the Volt would be an EV for 40 miles and a hybrid for 60 miles.

Well...sorta. Everything in this physical world seems to be based on definitions. Tailpipes mean EPA rules and a range of other things that 'real' EVs don't have to worry with - like air filters and oil changes. Folks can add batteries to their Prius, install electronics that allows them to take control of the larger battery, and get up to 42 miles of electric-only range (sound familiar?) and at the end of the day they're driving a hybrid -- and they won't try to tell anyone otherwise.

Even the EV Project folks seem to understand:

What is a PHEV?
A PHEV, or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle, has both an electric battery and a gasoline engine. PHEVs run on an electric charge and convert to gasoline when the battery runs down.

Now, the truth is, I have decided not to get a Volt, and I am going to get a Leaf. But I know in my heart that if I expect I may drive as much as 100 miles in one day, I am going to leave the Leaf at home and take my wife's Prius. That means I would use more gas on that day by having a Leaf than I would by having a Volt. (Unless the Volt uses as much gas in 60 miles as the Prius in 100 miles, which I doubt.)
<snips>
So stop knocking the Volt. I want it to succeed. I just don't happen to want it for myself.

I'm not knocking the Volt - it'll succeed or fail regardless of what I think. Sure - there are drivers for which this will be a better match than an EV. I'm 'knocking' that the marketing folks either inside or outside GM are trying to confuse the market and take share away from REAL EVs rather than positioning their product along side other hybrid vehicles where it belongs. I hope you agree that those are two different things.[/quote]

I'm totally with you Andy on this one. A hybrid isn't a BEV. They shouldn't be allowed in the HOV either.

 

[bowthom]

I realize that, but the Kokam high energy series is smilar in chemistry and Nissan is not releasing detailed specs on their batteries yet. I just wanted to give some general performace characteristics so prospective buyers can apply it to their driving requirements.