I'm not a stranger to two-wheeled EVs, but I'm considering getting a Leaf as my first E-Car. My garage isn't wired for 240 volts, just adequate 120 volt wiring, with the main panel a good 100' run from the front of the garage. I know that slow charging is actually better for the pack, but would it be practical to rely on that alone for daily usage ranging from 2 miles to a maximum of 50 or 60 or so, three days a week? What are the real-world charging times using 120 volts and 15 amps? There would be whole days the car could stay on the charger, and others when it could be charged for only a couple of hours halfway through that 60 miles. No charging is available at work. We don't drive aggressively, but would need to use the heat pump in the Winter and the A/C at least part of the Summer. If a fast charger is really a necessity, then this vehicle is probably out for our household...
Is It Practical to Slow-Charge Only?
- Thread starter LeftieBiker
- Start date
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On your 50+ mile days, 120 volt charging is going to take upwards of 12 hours to get back to 100%, and can be up to 20 hours if you invoke the Very Low Battery Warning . If your Leaf will have that much down time after such use, or you can live with a greatly reduced range the next day, then yes you can remain on 120 volt.
The Leaf's 120 volt EVSE (aka the "charging brick") only pulls 12 amps. There is a modification that (depending on year) can have it pull 16 or even 30 amps, but that requires 240 volt power.
If you will have a heat pump-equipped Leaf, and it doesn't drop too far below freezing where you are, it won't be too much of a drain on the battery, and neither will the A/C. Seat and steering wheel heaters also help extend your range on chilly days. But if the Leaf you get does not have a heat pump, and/or it's too cold outside for the heat pump to be effective, the resistive heater will take a big bite out of your range.
You mentioned being able to charge part of the way on the 60 mile journey. If it is a 240 volt charging station, that will help you tremendously.
The Leaf's 120 volt EVSE (aka the "charging brick") only pulls 12 amps. There is a modification that (depending on year) can have it pull 16 or even 30 amps, but that requires 240 volt power.
If you will have a heat pump-equipped Leaf, and it doesn't drop too far below freezing where you are, it won't be too much of a drain on the battery, and neither will the A/C. Seat and steering wheel heaters also help extend your range on chilly days. But if the Leaf you get does not have a heat pump, and/or it's too cold outside for the heat pump to be effective, the resistive heater will take a big bite out of your range.
You mentioned being able to charge part of the way on the 60 mile journey. If it is a 240 volt charging station, that will help you tremendously.
adric22
Well-known member
When we first got the Leaf we had only 120V charging. My wife was driving it at the time and doing about 43 miles per day. One issue we noticed right away. When she got home and plugged in, it would just barely be finished charging by the next morning when she was ready to go again. So the car was pretty much useless the rest of the evening otherwise she wouldn't have enough juice for the next day. Getting the 240V charger made all of the difference in the world. After that the car was available for use just about whenever we needed it and we knew it would always be recharged in the morning.
bradbissell
Well-known member
Trickle charging is possible with a 50 mile commute, but not really practical. I am currently trickle charging for my 54 mile commute and while doable it isn't a great solution. Emergencies, extra trips to the store, etc, make trickle charging tough. Tough enough that I am having a 240v line run to my detatched garage today so I can install a L2 charger. It is about 125ft of copper from my breaker. Not cheap, but with the government credit, it makes it less painful.
LTLFTcomposite
Well-known member
Bottom line, yes you can do it; many do for a while when they first get the car and a few have done so on a longer term basis, but except for a few who drive very little each day just about everyone tires of it and goes to 240.
100 feet in itself is no big deal, last I looked 8/2 romex was a buck a foot at HD. The real question is what is involved in getting the wiring from the panel to the garage. If there's an attic or crawlspace that gets you there no big deal, if you have to go through finished walls and ceilings, big deal.
100 feet in itself is no big deal, last I looked 8/2 romex was a buck a foot at HD. The real question is what is involved in getting the wiring from the panel to the garage. If there's an attic or crawlspace that gets you there no big deal, if you have to go through finished walls and ceilings, big deal.
ksnogas2112
Well-known member
Leftie,
Location would help the discussion. If you're in colder climate then the colder pack would play an issue both with range and the rate of charge. In general the postings to date in multiple threads don't indicate a real world problem/benefit with trickle vs 240 charging but as has been mentioned the application of charge time against life needs can play a big difference. It might be a issue of desire too. I wanted an electric car for a long time and would buy again even if I had to trickle to charge but that would have definitely affected how and where I drove over the last 11 months.
Location would help the discussion. If you're in colder climate then the colder pack would play an issue both with range and the rate of charge. In general the postings to date in multiple threads don't indicate a real world problem/benefit with trickle vs 240 charging but as has been mentioned the application of charge time against life needs can play a big difference. It might be a issue of desire too. I wanted an electric car for a long time and would buy again even if I had to trickle to charge but that would have definitely affected how and where I drove over the last 11 months.
pgrokkos
Member
I respectfully disagree with the prior posters. Simple slow charging should be adequate for your needs.
I leased an 13 SL about 1 month ago. It is our second car, with a minivan as the primary for long distance commutes. So the Leaf is my car for with a very similar range situation as yours - as little as 5-10 miles some days, 25-40 miles typical, up to 50-60 once or twice a week. I had planned on installing a Level 2 charger in my garage, but haven't gotten around to picking one up (I have the wiring already so only cost of charger and install), and at this point may never.
Given your driving situation, even in a high use day, like mine, 12 hours of charging overnight usually gets me back to full or almost full charge. Even back to back high usage days are possible even though they don't happen that often. I gauge roughly 5 miles per hour of trickle charge, so from a full charge, even 3 days of 60 miles driving, back to back to back, with only 8 hours of sleep time charging, will still leave you with a comfortable buffer regardless of weather and driving patterns. I've been getting over 80 miles per charge in NJ with average driving - basically driving as if it were a regular car.
There are plenty of advantages to having the level 2 charger obviously, but I've always felt 8-10 hours overnight pretty much gives me all the power I would need during the course of a typical week. This fits in with my and most people's sleep patterns so given even your more aggressive 60 mile days, you should be fine. I recognize that all EVs require a certain degree of life style planning on when to charge, what you will need the next day, etc., and that trickle vs L2 really impacts this planning. So if you are really looking for flexibility in charging options and driving patters, an EV will restrict you to begin with, and no L2 will exponentially complicate this but given your pattern - not to a point where I wouldn't recommend this really cool car.
In my experience, I don't even charge every night especially on lighter usage days.
Couple this with the possible benefits of less frequent charging and trickle vs. level 2 charging that some argue may be better for long term battery life, not sure about that one and it doesn't apply to me as I have a short term lease, it may be worth dropping the Level 2 altogether.
One caveat, I have a free level 2 at work although it has taken me a month to get working Chargepoint card (only used once to date for an hour), so that will soon become my primary charging point - I don't think that changes this analysis however it may color my perception.
My bigger concern remains that 100 miles is a barrier that I just can't make without a charge. That is the roundtrip for NYC driving for me, and I am not sold on using a parking garage in NYC to charge (I have visions of trying to explain to a NYC parking attendant that my app says he can Level 2 charge my car...to a blank stare), and am skeptical about this mythical fast charger that has appeared in lower Manhattan (will it be available when I need it? will it work?). So putting my own neuroses aside, I think Level 2 obviously provides more flexibility for that late night dinner run in between 2 60 mile days. But as many others have pointed out, real life usage turns out to seldom have these circumstances occur. In one month, I have not yet run into any instance that I really regretted not having a Level 2 at home - but there is definitely the planning factor involved that at EV entails and that not have a Level 2 makes more important.
I leased an 13 SL about 1 month ago. It is our second car, with a minivan as the primary for long distance commutes. So the Leaf is my car for with a very similar range situation as yours - as little as 5-10 miles some days, 25-40 miles typical, up to 50-60 once or twice a week. I had planned on installing a Level 2 charger in my garage, but haven't gotten around to picking one up (I have the wiring already so only cost of charger and install), and at this point may never.
Given your driving situation, even in a high use day, like mine, 12 hours of charging overnight usually gets me back to full or almost full charge. Even back to back high usage days are possible even though they don't happen that often. I gauge roughly 5 miles per hour of trickle charge, so from a full charge, even 3 days of 60 miles driving, back to back to back, with only 8 hours of sleep time charging, will still leave you with a comfortable buffer regardless of weather and driving patterns. I've been getting over 80 miles per charge in NJ with average driving - basically driving as if it were a regular car.
There are plenty of advantages to having the level 2 charger obviously, but I've always felt 8-10 hours overnight pretty much gives me all the power I would need during the course of a typical week. This fits in with my and most people's sleep patterns so given even your more aggressive 60 mile days, you should be fine. I recognize that all EVs require a certain degree of life style planning on when to charge, what you will need the next day, etc., and that trickle vs L2 really impacts this planning. So if you are really looking for flexibility in charging options and driving patters, an EV will restrict you to begin with, and no L2 will exponentially complicate this but given your pattern - not to a point where I wouldn't recommend this really cool car.
In my experience, I don't even charge every night especially on lighter usage days.
Couple this with the possible benefits of less frequent charging and trickle vs. level 2 charging that some argue may be better for long term battery life, not sure about that one and it doesn't apply to me as I have a short term lease, it may be worth dropping the Level 2 altogether.
One caveat, I have a free level 2 at work although it has taken me a month to get working Chargepoint card (only used once to date for an hour), so that will soon become my primary charging point - I don't think that changes this analysis however it may color my perception.
My bigger concern remains that 100 miles is a barrier that I just can't make without a charge. That is the roundtrip for NYC driving for me, and I am not sold on using a parking garage in NYC to charge (I have visions of trying to explain to a NYC parking attendant that my app says he can Level 2 charge my car...to a blank stare), and am skeptical about this mythical fast charger that has appeared in lower Manhattan (will it be available when I need it? will it work?). So putting my own neuroses aside, I think Level 2 obviously provides more flexibility for that late night dinner run in between 2 60 mile days. But as many others have pointed out, real life usage turns out to seldom have these circumstances occur. In one month, I have not yet run into any instance that I really regretted not having a Level 2 at home - but there is definitely the planning factor involved that at EV entails and that not have a Level 2 makes more important.
smkettner
Well-known member
I drove close to 50 miles average every day for the first five months with just L1 120 volts.
Mostly it was fine.
Mostly it was fine.
Stanton
Well-known member
The problem with 120v charging is your Leaf is likely to be "a victim of it's own success". Once you realize how fun/cheap it is to drive you'll want to drive it more--and that won't be possible with 120v all the time. The most efficient trips for an EV are those short (unexpected) ones to run errands or grab a meal; sometimes the only way to cover those is @220v.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
Another option would be the "Quick 220" approach. If you have two unused 120 V Circuits in your garage that are on different phases of your electrical supply you can join them to make a 240 Volt circuit. Then you could use EVSE Upgrade to charge more quickly.
There are a number of people here who have used this system (mostly for charging at the houses of friends or relatives) who could explain it if you are interested.
There are a number of people here who have used this system (mostly for charging at the houses of friends or relatives) who could explain it if you are interested.
You probably won't get all the use out of the car that you will want with only lvl 1. As you said, it is barely charged by the time you leave. I did it for a month in the winter and you can get by, but pre-heating needs to use more juice. It is really great to get back from an extended commute, plug in for an hour and have another 30 miles of range for an evening run somewhere.
For a long run, consider 6/3+g. We have low voltage problems already and 110' run, so when sizing the 40 amp circuit that was close enough to the cross over between 8/3 and 6/3 that we went for it.
One other consideration is that whenever you are charging, the charging system is eating a set amount of watts off the top, so the efficiency at level 1 is lower (~75%) than at level 2 (85% to 90%...ingeneer will know for sure). You will get some of the level 2 charger cost back every time you charge.
For a long run, consider 6/3+g. We have low voltage problems already and 110' run, so when sizing the 40 amp circuit that was close enough to the cross over between 8/3 and 6/3 that we went for it.
One other consideration is that whenever you are charging, the charging system is eating a set amount of watts off the top, so the efficiency at level 1 is lower (~75%) than at level 2 (85% to 90%...ingeneer will know for sure). You will get some of the level 2 charger cost back every time you charge.
supra410
Well-known member
I planned on buying an L2 as soon as I bought my Leaf. After a couple weeks on L1 it became more evident, I didn't really need it. I drive 45 miles a day charged 80% L1. On Fridays I'll normally go 100%. This last weekend was the most I have ever driven in a day with 140 miles. I had to stop at the Nissan dealership and eat lunch next door for an hour or so to leach a charge. Later that evening I stopped at a local grocer with an L2 installed, and leached some power while getting a few groceries, and some flowers next door at lowes. It sounds very doable, you just may be inconvenienced a time or two. I have traveled almost 4k miles in two and a half months mostly L1.
davewill
Well-known member
Yet another option is possible if you have a dedicated 120v circuit available in your garage. It's possible to convert it to 240v, at the same amperage as the original 120v circuit just by changing the breaker and outlet, and using a little electrical tape to color code the ends of the repurposed neutral properly. Note the circuit must be dedicated. The resulting 15a or 20a 240v circuit can then be used with the EVSE Upgrade.dgpcolorado said:
pgrokkos said:
The first 3 or 4 replies said that it was possible, albeit with caveats. Until the OP posts his location, or at least tells us what the terrain is like on his drive, we don't know if he will get the same economy as you apparently do.
Thanks for all the responses. My initial plan was to replace our leased Prius with a Leaf, but that just isn't going to happen. Now I'm considering the two year $99 a month lease on an entry level Leaf and using it as a second car, replacing a '95 Camry with 206k miles on it and no A/C that is my personal car. Given all that I've read, I think this might just work for us - having the Leaf for shorter trips, my personal use, and one commute (I work three days a week) per week. I know I wouldn't have the heat pump, but I also wouldn't have to use the car in frigid weather, and could pre-heat it in normal Winter weather. I'm pretty irked that the S model has no cruise control, but that isn't a deal breaker. It's just stupid of Nissan, since they aren't selling enough of the cars as it is.
So the question now becomes: is the $99 for two years lease, with $2k down, easy to get, or is it primarily a marketing gimmick to get you to drive a leaf and then lease or buy for much more? I know I wouldn't get the EV credit, but $100 per month less matters more for a two year lease to me. Also, what are insurance rates like for a Leaf, compared to, say, a Prius or old Camry owned by the same Middle-aged person?
I had wondered about possibly improvising 220 volts, but the wiring isn't that new, I think one circuit in the (detached) garage is for lights only, and it doesn't seem worth the risk.
Oh, and I'm in Upstate NY, with a 22 mile one-way commute that can be either very flat or mixed, with one big uphill run and one downhill each way. I'd definitely want the "B" regen mode. Is that available in the S model, I hope?
So the question now becomes: is the $99 for two years lease, with $2k down, easy to get, or is it primarily a marketing gimmick to get you to drive a leaf and then lease or buy for much more? I know I wouldn't get the EV credit, but $100 per month less matters more for a two year lease to me. Also, what are insurance rates like for a Leaf, compared to, say, a Prius or old Camry owned by the same Middle-aged person?
I had wondered about possibly improvising 220 volts, but the wiring isn't that new, I think one circuit in the (detached) garage is for lights only, and it doesn't seem worth the risk.
Oh, and I'm in Upstate NY, with a 22 mile one-way commute that can be either very flat or mixed, with one big uphill run and one downhill each way. I'd definitely want the "B" regen mode. Is that available in the S model, I hope?
Insurance definitely is something you want to shop around for. Some companies will surcharge a lot for the Leaf....AAA wanted to double what I was paying to Allstate 
120 volt charging is perfectly fine for that 22 mile commute, but as you mentioned 50-60 mile days, how often do you do that, and more importantly, do you have to do that on consecutive days? And how much down time with the Leaf have after such a long drive?
120 volt charging is perfectly fine for that 22 mile commute, but as you mentioned 50-60 mile days, how often do you do that, and more importantly, do you have to do that on consecutive days? And how much down time with the Leaf have after such a long drive?
We both work three days a week, but different hours. As it is we can both use the Prius on the same days, with a 1-4 hour downtime between our commutes. I don't think we could both use the car the same day, but I could use the leaf two of the three days, with a day in between to fully recharge. Really, it all depends on that lease actually being that cheap, and the insurance not being exorbitant...
planet4ever
Well-known member
Sorry, no B mode in the S model. The specs are spelled out quite well here: 2013 Nissan LEAF Press Kit. Don't miss the Specs tab at the top.LeftieBiker said:
You shouldn't treat the lack of B mode as a deal-breaker. Light pressure on the brake pedal does boost the regen to about as much as the car's computer is willing to let the battery take. For upstate NY I would consider lack of a heat pump to be much more serious.
Ray
ksnogas2112
Well-known member
$99/month????
Most of the posts and ad's I've seen are for $199/month. Check and triple check the $99/month and check again one more time. But that may just be me being suspicious.??
Most of the posts and ad's I've seen are for $199/month. Check and triple check the $99/month and check again one more time. But that may just be me being suspicious.??
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