Is it even possible to waste electricity in the winter?

[EVDRIVER]

How did we go from the OP talking about electrical devices to heat pumps? Of course a heat pump is more efficient than a resistive heater but that is not a light bulb. Regardless, In CA just see what a heating bill from an electric source vs gas costs for the average home in Winter.

 

[klapauzius]

Since heat pumps do "produce" more energy in warmth, than they consume in electricity, they should be able to beat a gas furnace.

With typical COP of e.g. 4 they should provide 4 kWh of heat for every 1 kWH spent.
Even if e.g. the gas-to-electricity conversion of the power plant is inefficient, say e.g. 50%, we can burn 2 kWH gas to make 1 kWH electricity which the heat pump turns into 4 kWH heat, so would be 2 kWH ahead of directly burning gas?

 

[gbarry42]

Heat pumps move energy, rather than producing it.

Three pages of blather, and no one has stated the obvious: If you presently heat with electricity (resistive), then you can ponder the original argument. And you can certainly apply the argument to things that have to be run anyway, such as the refrigerator (or the server!).

This is not to say that there aren't more efficient ways to heat a home, but that's a different discussion (one which has hijacked the original question).

 

[johnrhansen]

I think in Washington where I live, the absolute best way to heat a house it with a ductless heat pump system. Much cheaper to install than a ground sourced heat pump, and about as efficient. The reason is that these new systems use a speed controlled motor on the fans and on the compressor. It only runs as fast as it needs to maintain the heat in the space. No cycling on and off, it's on all the time. Most time everything runs at half speed or so. A compressor running half speed uses far less than half the power. Some phenomenon of physics. the heat exchangers are more than twice as efficient as well at half speed. The result is some of these systems have a C.O.P. up to 4. this means it uses 4 times less energy to put out the same heat that a resistance type heater. I think they are the cat's meow. My electric bill in the coldest part of winter was about 50 bucks. A good comparison would be this in Seattle. Energy to run a ductless heat pump costs $1. a gas furnace $2. resistance heat, $4. As the temperature drops, the COP of a heat pump approaches 1. These ductless systems just stop heating during the de ice cycle for 10 minutes at a time when it gets really cold.. in the teens.. gets kind of annoying. But in my town, it doesn't happen enough to worry about. I'd put in a slightly bigger system to compensate if there's a worry, Makes them more efficient anyway. You don't have to worry about short cycling like when you install too big of a gas furnace. These ductless systems just run slower... and more efficiently.

Trouble is contractors who put them in still charge way more than they should be charging. Now that I'm good at it, I can put one in in far less than a day. I got a bid for $5000 to install my 12,000 BTU Mitsubishi. I bought all the parts for $1800 and spent about 600 on the vacuum pump and micron gauge you need to evacuate the lines before you open the king valves. Over in Asia, people DIY install them all the time. They are extremely common over there. Don't know why they aren't catching on over here.

 

[cwerdna]

Absolutely it can be wasted. Heat could be produced in areas in unoccupied areas or where it's so little and/or won't be transferred to occupied areas.

I could definitely waste a ton of electricity by unnecessarily charging my Leaf at home instead of work, where it's free or free public charging.

 

[LeftieBiker]

This all started when another poster opined that heating with electricity was essentially the worst way to do it, with no qualifiers. I then asked about heat pumps, knowing that he had overstated his case. I wasn't expecting this much of a tangent, but having only learned about present-generation heat pumps this year myself, I think it was actually a more productive discussion than the original one about heating with light bulbs. The only point I haven't seen mentioned was the rebuttal to the idea that heat pumps are very expensive: actually, they can be quite cheap, if you don't mind lower efficiency. Like sub-$1k cheap. Most people try to opt for the more expensive units, though, because the payback over time is much larger.

 

[johnrhansen]

people are way to crazy about going off topic. This conversation has nothing to do with nissan leafs. it was off topic to begin with!

 

[donald]

people are way to crazy about going off topic. This conversation has nothing to do with nissan leafs. it was off topic to begin with!

Hence it is in the 'off topic' forum!

You can't talk about Leafs here in this forum. Leafs are 'off topic' in a non-Leaf discussion forum! :lol:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

...The other thing to consider is how often the house sits empty and how well insulated it is. Mine sits empty for as much as 12 hours frequently so our heat gets set at 55º and I turn it up when I get home. I timed the heat cycle twice for several hours on typical weather days to determine how long the heater would run (I can hear the gas flip on fairly easily, the fan is not a good indicator of when power (or gas in my case) is being used) and found that even maintaining a low home temperature of say 64º uses more power than simply turning it way down then having it warm up when we get home.

but a lot of people don't like doing that because they are wim... I mean cause they like consistency

Well, your temperatures seem a bit high to me: I keep the thermostat set at 62º mornings and evenings and 52º at night. During the day the house gets additional heat from the sun most days — lots of east and south facing windows. (But sun isn't something one likely gets much in Olympia in winter...)

The secret to lowering the thermostat is to dress warmly in winter. When I go into a house that is at 70º this time of the year it feels uncomfortably warm because I am acclimated to cooler temperatures.

if I had 100% control, my normal set temp would be 60º. 64 is very much a tacit compromise which means when i am home alone, i turn it down to 60 but when others arrive it goes back up to 64...

 

[AndyH]

people are way to crazy about going off topic. This conversation has nothing to do with nissan leafs. it was off topic to begin with!

That's why it's in a "non LEAF Discussions >> Off-Topic" area. It's actually ON topic for this section.... :lol:

 

[johnrhansen]

With a gas furnace or electric resistance heat, yes, cycling temperature settings is the most efficient way to go. But if you have a heat pump, it is better just to keep the house at a constant temperature. Oh, and I never even noticed what category this post was under. I just look at new posts and read what interests me. oops!

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

people are way to crazy about going off topic. This conversation has nothing to do with nissan leafs. it was off topic to begin with!

Hence it is in the 'off topic' forum!

You can't talk about Leafs here in this forum. Leafs are 'off topic' in a non-Leaf discussion forum! :lol:

Sometimes it's just interesting to discuss a non-LEAF topic with other LEAF owners since they are, as a group, of superior intellect.

 

[EVDRIVER]

people are way to crazy about going off topic. This conversation has nothing to do with nissan leafs. it was off topic to begin with!

Most of this entire forum is way OT more than almost any forum I have been on, it's like a charter box. Few threads are focused and there are dozens and dozens of redundant threads. Even when there is thread with one new post immediately followed by 10 links to other existing posts on the exact same topic people will keep on posting and not move on to the appropriate thread because they have to respond 20 times over. Then someone will ask a question and you will get the same answer 20 times over and over. Even spammers get 10-15 replies at times. Some forum software reads the posts and directs to existing threads so there is not so much redundancy, too bad we don't have that as we would have about 75% fewer threads like elsewhere or were people search before posting. It's like a a tv show at times.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
As I mentioned before at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=364589#p364589" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

-- begin quote --
FWIW, I still frequent Tivocommunity.com. Now their Happy Hour - General Chit-Chat (off-topic area that requires a free account to see) has FAR more activity and posts than ALL the TiVo-related forums combined. Some people don't even have TiVos anymore and yet still visit TCF, mainly for the OT area. There are some pretty random threads (e.g. That's Racist!, Help me plan my wedding, I'm sick, JJ Abrams to direct Star Wars episode VII, a colonscopy thread, etc.)
-- end quote --

So... for me, that's the MOST OT forum of any that I'm on. Heck, I also hardly talk about TiVo over there anymore and hardly even read the TiVo now. I mostly participate in their OT area.

Heck, I recently saw a thread about how someone had to put their dog down as it was suffering due to old age. Another thread was about someone "killing" their dog because it had attacked their family members a bunch of times and they felt their family's safety was more important.

 

[EVDRIVER]

^^^
As I mentioned before at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=364589#p364589" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;:

-- begin quote --
FWIW, I still frequent Tivocommunity.com. Now their Happy Hour - General Chit-Chat (off-topic area that requires a free account to see) has FAR more activity and posts than ALL the TiVo-related forums combined. Some people don't even have TiVos anymore and yet still visit TCF, mainly for the OT area. There are some pretty random threads (e.g. That's Racist!, Help me plan my wedding, I'm sick, JJ Abrams to direct Star Wars episode VII, a colonscopy thread, etc.)
-- end quote --

So... for me, that's the MOST OT forum of any that I'm on. Heck, I also hardly talk about TiVo over there anymore and hardly even read the TiVo now. I mostly participate in their OT area.

Heck, I recently saw a thread about how someone had to put their dog down as it was suffering due to old age. Another thread was about someone "killing" their dog because it had attacked their family members a bunch of times and they felt their family's safety was more important.

You can TIVO a LEAF advert.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

If you're looking for intelligent discussion on just about any topic you have a far better shot at finding it among EV enthusiasts than most places. Certainly not among the assclowns on yahoo message boards.

Last I looked nobody is forced to read anything here. There might even be a user preference to filter out seeing threads from the OT category.

 

[hill]

I had a $172 credit on my electric bill going into November, (lose it on December 31st, if not used) .....snip.....

Gov Schwarzenegger signed into legislation (ca only of course) whereby the utility has to pay for surplus ... when it's a true one for one kWh arrangement. Are you talking about a TOU arrangement/billing cycle? Cuz we get between $100 & $200 buck a year back for surplus generation.
.