Is 83 miles with big elevation changes possible?

[GREENEV]

Thank you. Very good news. I live at 6000'.

 

[Caracalover]

I think you wil be quite happy to find this trip is not only possible, but comfortable. Take the uphills slower and you will be fine. Watch the meter and the time you use what power. For my steep ascents, I set the CC at 34 and don't have to slow for the curves. It pulls a little over 20KW, so I could do that for an hour. When the descent starts, I can pull 10 KW in D, and 20 or so in ECO, while maintaining about a 45 MPH speed. Ignore the GOM, since it will likely get close to single digits even though you are about to go downhill - it has no way of knowing that. I like to use N to gain speed on the downgrades, and alternate between D and Eco to slow the vehicle. While CC is ok to use on a steady upgrade, I feel that monitoring speed and terrain allows me to get more out of the regen, so I don't advise using it on the downgrades. I often do a 70 mile trip over similiar elevations, and it only takes about 4 hours with L2 to get me back to 100%, so you could go home the same day if you leave the car at the dealer long enough. Ask them to plug it in as soon as you arrive, and by the time they get you out of there you will have a full charge, if they are as slow as many of the dealers I have had to deal with in the past.

 

[dgpcolorado]

LEAF at Red Mountain Pass, elevation 11,018 feet:

I did my first research run for the Durango trip: a drive to Red Mountain Pass and back home. The goal was to see how much charge it would take to make the 32 mile drive home from the top of the pass. Answer: not much, one fuel bar would be sufficient. This 63.8 mile trip had significant elevation changes: home 7670', 8000', 7000', 11,018', 7000', 8000', 7670':
300' up
1000' down
4000' up
4000' down
1000' up
300' down

The temperatures were high for winter: 40s and low 50s, with a very mild 34ºF at the pass (spring conditions for the backcountry skiers). Speeds ranged from 60 mph to 15 mph, with about one third at 25-30 mph. Tire pressure was at 39 pounds to start.

Charge to start: 11 bars (+ or - 0.5)
Charge at pass, mile 31.9: <3.5 bars
Charge at finish, mile 63.8: >2 bars
Overall mileage: 4.7 miles/kWh (on center console)

For those who have never been to this area before, the drive from Ouray to Red Mountain Pass is highly scenic, but not for the faint-of-heart since most of the sheer dropoffs don't have guard rails (to allow for the frequent avalanches to be pushed off the side of the road).

 

[TonyWilliams]

Love that pic! And the license plate, too!

 

[abasile]

Awesome drive! Backcountry skiers in the San Juan Mountains have it good; I've hardly been able to do any this winter in the San Bernardino Mountains due to the dry weather.

Assuming you reached the pass with 40%, it seems possible that driving on to Durango might be do-able if you're careful, though with very, very little margin. I can understand why you would want to top off in Ridgway, or possibly in Ouray.

 

[Desertstraw]

You people must be far more skillful than I. Yesterday I drove on the road that goes from Phoenix to Payson, I think that it is called the Beeline highway, starting with 100 % charge. With ups and downs, the maximum elevation change according to the car GPS was about 2000 feet. I drove in the Eco mode and held the speed to 55 mph. At the end I had driven 70 miles, was down to my last bar and had received a verbal warning about my need to recharge.

 

[TonyWilliams]

You people must be far more skillful than I. Yesterday I drove on the road that goes from Phoenix to Payson, I think that it is called the Beeline highway, starting with 100 % charge. With ups and downs, the maximum elevation change according to the car GPS was about 2000 feet. I drove in the Eco mode and held the speed to 55 mph. At the end I had driven 70 miles, was down to my last bar and had received a verbal warning about my need to recharge.

That sounds about right. At that first warning, commonly referred to as LBW, you had about 17% remaining in the battery. So, if you do the math, you had about an 84 mile ultimate range at the same economy. Your dash mount "miles/kWh" should have been about 4.0 (you did reset that prior to your trip, right?).

On level road, you could have driven 60mph to get that 4.0, but you went uphill, so the speed of 55mph did the same job. This assumes a 21kWh usable battery capacity, which is available near 70F.

Had you driven on level road at 55mph, your economy would have been closer to 4.3, for an 89 mile ultimate range. Hopes this helps with understanding.

Like always, none of the numbers or data have anything to do with the GuessOmeter or CarWings. Also, there's no consideration for heating and cooling impacts on economy.

Check out the range chart link in the top of my signature links.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I finally got a chance to make my practice run to the Nissan dealer in Durango. The answer to my question in the OP is yes, 83 miles is possible in summer and I managed to do the full 92 miles to my home. Making the trip southbound was easier but I barely made it northbound on a 100% charge at the dealer: VLBW about 2.5 miles from home, although it is mostly downhill from there. And I was doing my best to hypermile. The elevation profile:

It was a lovely day for a drive though the mountains since the aspens were fully turned in most places, as you can see from my pictures.

Southbound:

Mile 8.5 Ridgway Town Park, charged to 100% using a 240V 14-50 outlet and a homemade extension cord plus my upgraded EVSE. Took 53 minutes.

Red Mountain and aspens in fall color

This qualifies as a superhighway in my mostly dirt road county

Mile 32.0 Red Mountain Pass, 11,018 feet, 5+ fuel bars, temperature about 45ºF

The line at the bottom of the sign says "Gold ore wagons first crossed here in 1878"

Mile 42.5 Silverton, about 9300 feet, 6 fuel bars. In asking around I found a motel owner that has outlets, intended for engine block heaters in winter. He also has a 240 V outlet. I checked and it is an L6-30 so with an L6-30 to L6-20 adapter I now have a place to charge when I make the trip in December for my annual battery check! He said to just leave $5 on the counter when I use an outlet. Life is informal around here.

Mile 49.3 Molas Pass, 10,910 feet, 3+ fuel bars

Mile 56.6 Coal Bank Pass, 10,640 feet, 3 fuel bars, 55º

Mile 92.3 Durango, Economy Nissan, about 6500 feet, 2 fuel bars, 74º, six temp bars, 5.4 miles/kWh efficiency on the console for the trip. I charged for five hours to 100%. Charge station is only open during business hours, preferably by prior arrangement, and they were quite friendly and welcoming.

Northbound:

From the outskirts of Durango to Purgatory (now renamed "Durango Mountain Resort") the speed limit is 60 mph but the road has a climbing lane. I went 45 on this long uphill stretch. In retrospect I should have done 40. From there north, the road has only one lane and I had to pull over periodically when someone would come up behind me. Slowing to pull over hurts efficiency. One reason the northbound route is harder to do on a charge is that the speed limits are much higher for the first big uphill part. The other reason is that there is a small net elevation gain northbound.

Mile 35.8 Coal Bank Pass, 10,640 feet, 3+ fuel bars, 59º (yes, I went from 12 fuel bars to a bit over 3 in less than 36 miles at 45 mph or less)

The aspens along the route were lovely. I especially like the reddish ones.

Mile 43.6 Molas Pass, 10,910 feet, 2+ fuel bars, 56º

Mile 49.9 Silverton, 3 fuel bars, 54º

Mile 59.3 Low Battery Warning

Mile 59.9 Red Mountain Pass, flashing 3 on the GOM, 50º

LBW at Red Mountain Pass

At this point in the past I would expect to gain two fuel bars on the way down to Ouray. However, this time I stayed at one bar even as the GOM climbed all the way up to flashing 14 over the next nine miles, at which point the LBW went away. After that I had headlights on, which may have been why I didn't gain as much charge from regen as before. But I was surprised to get all the way to Ridgway and still have just one fuel bar; that's 4000 feet of elevation loss.

Mile 83.7 Ridgway, 1 fuel bar but when I turned the car off and on I got 2 bars. So I decided not to charge since it takes 2 bars to get home. An hour later when I turned on the car it was back to 1 bar, I decided to go for it. In retrospect I should have trickle charged for that hour in Ridgway.

Mile 86.3 Low Battery Warning, flashing 10 on GOM, headlights on of course. This was at the bottom of a steep (up to 14%) 800 foot grade and I have never had LBW at the bottom of the hill before.

Mile 89.8 Very Low Battery Warning, I was at the top of the hill and the rest of the way home was mostly down so I knew I would make it.

Mile 92.3 Home, 5.1 miles/kWh on the console for the trip. I charged for an hour to get the battery over one full fuel bar and well away from LBW level.


So, I made it albeit just barely. Can I do this trip in winter without interim charging? No way! I'm glad I found a charging spot in Silverton; it appears that I won't have to rely on my generator.

As you can see from this trip log, it isn't flat around here...

 

[phxsmiley]

You people must be far more skillful than I. Yesterday I drove on the road that goes from Phoenix to Payson, I think that it is called the Beeline highway, starting with 100 % charge. With ups and downs, the maximum elevation change according to the car GPS was about 2000 feet. I drove in the Eco mode and held the speed to 55 mph. At the end I had driven 70 miles, was down to my last bar and had received a verbal warning about my need to recharge.

Impressive that you made the drive up to Payson! I'm curious what your miles/kwh were for that trip, and I'm wondering how many capacity bars you have left. I was considering a trip to Flagstaff, via multiple stops at RV places along the way. I'm really curious how the Leaf handles the mountains, how much we'd get for Regen on the way back.

 

[WetEV]

I finally got a chance to make my practice run to the Nissan dealer in Durango. The answer to my question in the OP is yes, 83 miles is possible in summer and I managed to do the full 92 miles to my home. Making the trip southbound was easier but I barely made it northbound on a 100% charge at the dealer: VLBW about 2.5 miles from home, although it is mostly downhill from there. And I was doing my best to hypermile.

WOW! I used to live in Colorado. Thanks. Great trip report. The million dollar highway.

My only suggestion is that you might want to add the motel in Silverton into http://www.plugshare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[dgpcolorado]

WOW! I used to live in Colorado. Thanks. Great trip report. The million dollar highway.

My only suggestion is that you might want to add the motel in Silverton into http://www.plugshare.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good idea. I tend to forget that it isn't just for places with EVSEs.

Edit: Added the motel to plugshare. Also added Ridgway Town Park; the town officials are friendly toward EVs.

 

[abasile]

Thank you for the trip report and photos with the beautiful aspens! Great news on finding places to charge en route!

 

[dgpcolorado]

I finally attempted my trip across the mountains to get my annual battery check in Durango. My concern was whether or not I could get from Durango to the top of Molas Pass, 10,910' at night in zero degree weather, a distance of 43 miles with an elevation gain of about 4500 feet. When I did my test run in September I ended up with 2+ fuel bars at a temperature of 56º at the pass after driving at 45 mph. As everyone knows, cold is a major range killer, hence my concern.

By working through Tony Williams' Range Chart (thanks Tony!), especially the footnotes concerning temperature, elevation gain, and density altitude, and using a speed of 35 mph, it appeared that it should be fairly easy to do the trip. However, for a security blanket I carried a generator in the trunk, although the thought of spending hours charging at L1 by the side of the road at night in zero degree temperatures was not pleasant.

So, the idea was to drive to Silverton, about halfway and charge for a couple of hours at L2 then proceed to Durango for my dealer appointment. Then charge to 100% at the dealer, however long it took, and head back to the motel in Silverton for the night and a recharge. As I have posted above in the thread, the trip elevation profile for the northbound (return) trip looks like this:

Southbound

I left home before sunrise, dressed for winter in downhill ski clothes, in a temperature of about -5ºF. Down in town the temperature dropped to -15ºF. Keeping the windshield defrosted with cold outside air was brisk! At mile 50 I charged at L2 for 2½ hours at the EV-friendly Triangle Motel in Silverton, elevation 9300 feet. Because my car was facing into the sun it warmed up nicely while charging, which was pleasant when I continued my journey. I made it to Durango without difficulty and got my battery check and the tires rotated. I then spent many hours in the dealership waiting for the car to charge, which took until 6:50 PM, delayed a bit by some preheating; that last bar of charging is very slow, as most here know, but I wanted as much L2 charging as I could cram in my car. Since the dealership closed at 6 PM I just walked laps around the lot to keep warm and get some exercise while I waited for the third blue light to stop flashing.

Northbound

I left the dealer at 7 PM in 23ºF temperatures that rapidly dropped to 5º and stayed there for about 20 miles. I made the trip at 30 mph to give myself an extra margin of range, even a casual perusal of the range chart shows that speed is the biggest range factor. I was fortunate that the single lane portion of the drive had a wide shoulder so I could drive on that whenever somebody approached me from behind, to let them pass.

I dropped the 12th fuel bar at 8 miles after flat driving and the 11th bar at 15 miles after mostly flat driving. After that it gets steep and I dropped the 7th bar at mile 26. By that time it was becoming clear that I could make the trip so I didn't stop for gas for the generator at the last station before I hit the real mountains. By mile 26 I had passed though an inversion layer and the temperatures were a mild 10-12ºF for the rest of the trip to Silverton.

A couple of miles before topping Molas Pass at mile 42 I knew I was going to make it so I turned on the heat to warm things up a bit. I crested the pass at two fuel bars and it is mostly downhill from there. When I got to Silverton, a tiny nineteenth century mining town that is the destination for the famed Durango to Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad, I charged for an hour at L2 with my L6-30 to L6-20 plug adapter then trickle charged to 80% overnight in the hope that would keep the battery warm. By 8 AM the charge had finished (when I don't know) and the battery temp was down to two bars. I preheated for about 40 minutes and by 9 AM the battery temp was down to one bar, the lowest I've ever seen:

Note that I was down to only one regen circle.

Here are some pictures of my car charging on L1 at the motel, the 240 V L6-30 outlet is the box above:

The EVSE cable was so stiff from the cold that I just folded it into the trunk as best I could.
And here is a picture of the temperature reading on the LEAF showing that it was -8ºF:

While these temperatures are no big deal to the folks from Canada, Norway or Minnesota, I usually park my car in a garage so this is the coldest I've left it overnight, although with my charging I doubt that the battery heater was triggered.

On the way home over Red Mountain Pass, elevation 11,018 feet, The car quickly warmed up to three temp bars and then the steep descent on the other side warmed it up to four bars, what I usually see here in winter. However, my regen was limited despite five or six fuel bars so I am guessing that I was on the low end of the four temp bar range.

When I got to Ridgway, I took a walk on the Riverway Trail since I had been doing so much sitting for the previous couple of days. Some other trail walkers spotted an eagle sitting in a cottonwood tree so I took a picture of it:

Bald eagles are common winter visitors here (and in many other parts of Colorado). Not a very good picture but I have others so I didn't bother to try to get a better one.

So, I have found that I can make the trek to and from the Durango Nissan dealer over the mountains in deep winter (so long as the roads aren't snowpacked, that is).

 

[abasile]

Wow, only one temperature bar! Glad you made it with plenty of margin. This makes me want to stay overnight at the Triangle Motel in Silverton on a future trip.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Interesting that your elevation gain and distance to the pass is similar for me driving from my house out to the desert over the pass at Julian.

If it ever gets that cold here, though, I'm going to guess mankind will no longer be on the planet.

Good job!

:ugeek:

 

[dgpcolorado]

Interesting that your elevation gain and distance to the pass is similar for me driving from my house out to the desert over the pass at Julian.

If it ever gets that cold here, though, I'm going to guess mankind will no longer be on the planet.

Good job!

:ugeek:

I do have the advantage of a much higher density altitude than you have in SD County, so that compensates a bit for temperature.

I used to fly sailplanes at Jacumba so I made that trek out to the desert via I-8 dozens of times (from Mira Mesa). [Did my Gold Badge distance flight from Jacumba to Fontana and back.] But I only visited Julian a couple of times over the years. I'm actually more familiar with abasile's mountain roads, having made the journey to Lake Arrowhead numerous times over a decade and a half.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I do have the advantage of a much higher density altitude than you have in SD County, so that compensates a bit for temperature.

At least a 5-10% range advantage on density altitude, but the cold temperature hit on the batteries... eek!!! 10-20% loss !!!

 

[dgpcolorado]

I do have the advantage of a much higher density altitude than you have in SD County, so that compensates a bit for temperature.

At least a 5-10% range advantage on density altitude, but the cold temperature hit on the batteries... eek!!! 10-20% loss !!!

Yes, but the battery wasn't cold saturated because it started at four bars in my garage and I was driving the car or charging it for about 14 hours straight, which kept the battery warmed up. (The next day at one temp bar was another matter...) Nevertheless, 5ºF air is somewhat more dense that what I usually deal with here in thin air land.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an actual battery temp gauge with numbers instead of crude bars?