I need an under 20KW DC ChaDeMo Quick Charger

[muus]

All this talk of low power "quick" chargers is quite discouraging. To me, a charger that takes more than 30 minutes is not a quick charger. A 20kW "quick" charger is equivalent to an 80A L2 EVSE, only the current generation of EVs aren't able to take advantage of them (other than Tesla).

I do understand the interest in taking advantage of the Chademo port on the Leaf at the lowest possible cost, but if 20kW chargers start to be deployed instead of "full speed" quick chargers, it will only give more ammunition to the anti EV movement. I hope the utility companies that have a demand charge for any use over 20kW get with the times. (why so low!!)

We have to remember that the current EVs (Leaf, iMiEV, Focus) are first generation cars and battery pack capacities will (hopefully) increase. As pack capacities increase, charge times will also increase. In fact the current Chademo chargers are in my opinion too short sighted and not powerful enough. In order for EVs to be adopted by the masses, they need to be able to charge fully during the time it takes to eat a meal, about 45 minutes. Once battery pack capacities reach 50kWh or more (the Model S with 300 mile pack is nearly 100kWh and they will be coming out with an SUV next which may have an even larger pack) a 50 kW charger will not be sufficient. I sure hope the SAE L3 J1772 will be capable of charging at more than 100kW otherwise we might as well stick with Chademo.

 

[smkettner]

Good luck with the UL listing.

Is that required?

No idea. Just saying if you feed the DC direct into the machine it could be an issue.

 

[fooljoe]

All this talk of low power "quick" chargers is quite discouraging. To me, a charger that takes more than 30 minutes is not a quick charger. A 20kW "quick" charger is equivalent to an 80A L2 EVSE, only the current generation of EVs aren't able to take advantage of them (other than Tesla).

I agree. While it would be great to have a plethora of Chademo options available, if I were going to invest in one I would definitely want the maximum power output possible. What I take from this discussion is the need to couple EV quick charging with some kind of load-leveling energy storage. This is actually not a new problem at all - there are many areas now where a large surge of power is needed without causing a brown-out on the local grid or entailing huge demand charges. Labs that test circuit breakers are one example, or even roller coasters that start out with a quick burst of speed. Using a battery bank to achieve this has been discussed here, but actually you're more likely to find flywheels in use with these current applications.

 

[surfingslovak]

All this talk of low power "quick" chargers is quite discouraging. To me, a charger that takes more than 30 minutes is not a quick charger. A 20kW "quick" charger is equivalent to an 80A L2 EVSE, only the current generation of EVs aren't able to take advantage of them (other than Tesla).

What I don't get is this one-size-fits-all attitude. If you as site owner can install a 200 kW charger, then by all means go ahead and do it. That charger should be future-proof in terms of size, but it will still likely require changes, software upgrades or adjustments as the technology and EVs evolve. But what if you are not able to install a 200 kW charger? Would it be such a foolish idea to install a 20 kW one or get a smaller 50 kW unit and limit its power output via a software or hardware setting until you can fully utilize it?

Now back to the quick charging process itself. We will have EVs with different pack sizes, there will be trucks and utility vehicles, etc. I cannot imagine that I will be forced to hit my piddly 24 kWh pack with 100 kW of power, or the equivalent of 4C, down the road, because that's all I can get in 5 years. At a regular gas station, I'm expected to be done within 5 minutes or so. What I do during these five minutes, what type of fuel and how much of it I get, is my prerogative as a consumer. I can imagine that quick charging sessions will be limited in terms of time. Perhaps to 15 or 30 minutes, depending on site and business requirements. What I do during this time and how much power I want to stuff into my EV should be my decision and not yours or the site owner's.

When I pump gas, I can select the octane grade and I can control the speed and quantity of fuel delivery manually if I wish to do so. I don't see why this shouldn't be possible with these electric fuel stations. Perhaps I will be able to make a selection on the quick charger itself or set it in my EV's board computer, which would then communicate my preferences to the station via the charging protocol. Either way is fine, so long it's possible to make a choice and communicate it.

I don't know about you, but unless it was an emergency or a long trip, I absolutely don't want to connect my Leaf's pack to more than 24 kW of power, or the equivalent of 1C, at a charging station. There was some talk that quick chargers should be quick and the rest should be relegated to L2. I disagree. Level 2 charging relies on onboard vehicle chargers and because of their cost, size and cooling requirements, we won't see 20 kW onboard chargers anytime soon. Tesla Roadster is an outlier here. The only reasonable way to deliver adequate power to early-stage EVs with varying pack sizes is via powerful external chargers, whatever we choose to call them. It would be good if these chargers were as large as possible to service a wide range of vehicles, but that should not be an overriding requirement. We just need to get something deployed. Soon.

 

[fooljoe]

When I pump gas, I can select the octane grade and I can control the speed and quantity of fuel delivery manually if I wish to do so. I don't see why this shouldn't be possible with these electric fuel stations. Perhaps I should be able to make a selection on the quick charger itself or set it in my EV's board computer, which would then communicate my preferences to the station via the charging protocol. Either way is fine, but it should be possible to make a choice and communicate it.

Control over the details of how you charge would be great, but with an external charger you're at the mercy of its owner. I wouldn't expect much in terms of choice until there's a mature market of Chademo stations, and that's not happening any time soon, if ever.

Now with our onboard chargers, on the other hand, we should be able to set the current draw to whatever we want, and it's pretty disappointing that the Leaf software doesn't allow this. I might want to draw 16 amps on a 20a 120v circuit (assuming an EVSE that would allow it), or 12 amps on a 15 amp 240v circuit, for example.

 

[smkettner]

Maybe the existing equipment can be throttled or have a max setting put in place.
User manual might be of some help.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Peak demand charges / month

15 kW Quick Charger $150 - $450, possibly very low installation costs of say $5,000 - $10,000. Many sites can supply this power level.

50 kW Quick Charger $500 - $1500 need large commercial sites for this power level. Some sites can supply this power level.

250 kW Quick Charger $2500 - $7500 need very large commercial sites / mega malls for this power level. A select few sites can supply this power level.

Not all utilities have demand charges. Demand charges vary by a factor of 3 or more between utilities / rate plans. This does not go into installation costs. most sites would require very expensive upgrades to host a 250 kW Quick Charge, it might be a little less for a mega mall...

So sure, we all want the Quick Chargers to be as quick as possible. 50 kW is just one possible speed, you can go down or go up from there. If you can find asite where a 250 kW charger makes sense and there's a sustainable business model for it and you've gotten the business to sign up to start the installaiton and committed ot paying the demand, energy and maintenance costs for that charger for 5 years, if not 10, please let us know! We'd love to hear how you've done it, so we can replicate it. $2,500 a month, just for demand charges by 12 months is $30,000 a year the site is paying for the that quick charger - excluding energy, maintenance, installation etc. that will drive that figure up 2 or 3 times.

Though if you compare it to the cost if getting a gasoline pump and storage tank installed, permitted, etc. then maybe it's a little less crazy, but it's far from easy or inexpensive to get a host site for a Quick Charger. Smaller Quick Chargers are much less expensive to host / own / operate.

One of several listings for a 250 kW Quick Charger - 250 kW is the average power demand of 250 homes!
http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/public_charging/#public_charging_a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

Peak demand charges / month

15 kW Quick Charger $150 - $450, possibly very low installation costs of say $5,000 - $10,000. Many sites can supply this power level.

50 kW Quick Charger $500 - $1500 need large commercial sites for this power level. Some sites can supply this power level. <snip>

Not all utilities have demand charges.

For the discussion as it applies to us in San Diego, we do have the demand fee, it's huge, and it's not going away. The simplest way to have a network of 5 to 10 ChaDeMo DC chargers in San Diego is with a sub 20kW machine.

We can throw the switch on a series of sub 20kW chargers tomorrow without breaking the bank. Very straight forward installation, and the rate for electricity from SDGE is good. As has been stated through the thread, if I can get 25 miles in ten minutes of charging (@ 50kW), or 25 miles in 25 minutes (sub 20kW), that is still 500% better than the current 3.3kW J1772.

Using a 50kW charger than can be software enabled to limit it to sub 20kW, I would probably favor that machine over the sub 20kW unit. As a longer term investment, we don't know when/if a CPUC ruling change may happen in 2 or 20 years that may enable us to take full advantage of the 50 kW without the onerous demand charge.

The cars are here now, therefore I am not in favor of studies, engineering projects, waiting for that future nirvana charger, wondering or hoping. What I foresee is mostly off the shelf, currently available equipment to be operated in the real world of today's rules and electricity costs. We can only mitigate the ultimate cost to us based on how much service we are willing to pay for.

1. The sub 20kW might cost less than $20,000 installed, ready to use, and require about $2 - $3 worth of electricity per hour here in San Diego.

2. A 50kW unit may cost up to $40kW installed, and if limited to sub 20kW, have similar $2-$3 per hour electrical cost as above.

3. A 50kW unit could be augmented with all the above suggestions, and now the installed price pushes $100k or more. Electricity cost remains comparable to the above 2 scenarios on a per kWh basis.

I would most likely pick 3, but I can see utility in all 3 choices. Under no circumstance would I choose an option that included paying exorbitant demand charges.

 

[ht2]

Using a 50kW charger than can be software enabled to limit it to sub 20kW, I would probably favor that machine over the sub 20kW unit. As a longer term investment, we don't know when/if a CPUC ruling change may happen in 2 or 20 years that may enable us to take full advantage of the 50 kW without the onerous demand charge.

Another reason is unit price.
50KW Nissan unit may be cheaper too.

Nichicon 20KW unit cost $24,600. reported here.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/28/nichicon-lays-claim-to-the-worlds-smallest-ev-chargers-with-ngq/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

using $1=77yen.
Fuji 25KW unit cost 1,800,000yen around $23,400.
Japanese link.
http://www.fujielectric.co.jp/about/news/11092101/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Google translate link.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fujielectric.co.jp%2Fabout%2Fnews%2F11092101%2Findex.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

New Nissan 50KW unit cost standard:1,000,000yen around $13,000. Basic: 750,000yen around $9800.
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2011/_STORY/110912-01-e.html?rss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

New Nissan 50KW unit cost standard:1,000,000yen around $13,000. Basic: 750,000yen around $9800.
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2011/_STORY/110912-01-e.html?rss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The costs for these chargers vary a LOT !!!

I notice that this one is 49kW 3phase- AC200V, and that they plan to market in USA and EU. Hopefully, they plan to change the specification to match the market, but I'll bet that it's 208V/240V in the USA. It seems like it would be cheaper to operate a 480V with lower current draw for the same 48kW.

Regardless, it is way over 20kW, so either it is cranked way down somehow, or all the (expensive) schemes mentioned throughout the thread are used to mitigate the grid load.

Unfortunately, the cheapest charger may not be the cheapest charger!

 

[ElectricVehicle]

All this talk of low power "quick" chargers is quite discouraging. To me, a charger that takes more than 30 minutes is not a quick charger. A 20kW "quick" charger is equivalent to an 80A L2 EVSE, only the current generation of EVs aren't able to take advantage of them (other than Tesla).

I agree. While it would be great to have a plethora of Chademo options available, if I were going to invest in one I would definitely want the maximum power output possible. What I take from this discussion is the need to couple EV quick charging with some kind of load-leveling energy storage. This is actually not a new problem at all - there are many areas now where a large surge of power is needed without causing a brown-out on the local grid or entailing huge demand charges. Labs that test circuit breakers are one example, or even roller coasters that start out with a quick burst of speed. Using a battery bank to achieve this has been discussed here, but actually you're more likely to find flywheels in use with these current applications.

Please invest away, purchase, pay installation and operational costs for all those maximum power output Quick Chargers, and purchase the load leveling equipment and flywheels to go along with it. We'll all be happy to use your money. Let us know if you have a business plan that is sustainable with revenue coming in that exceeds the operational and cost of capital costs.... If you have something that works, share the secret, assuming you want more quick chargers, and we'll pitch it to host sites and get tens of thousands of Quick Chargers installed with the maximum power output possible! These maximum power output Quick Chargers are possible, but are they ECONOMICALLY possible? Can you make enough revenue to cover capital costs of charger purchase, installation, electrical energy, electrical demand and maintenance costs? Can you make enough revenue to turn a small or medium profit? What are the relative levels of pack degradation for 20, 50, 100, 250 kW Quick Charging?

Tesla has got it right, Sheesh, we paid $700 for the QC port to start with. Going from a 3.3 kW to a 12kW charger could be sold as an option or just rolled into the car price, as additional $1,800 over the current price. I guess at $1,800, it would probably have to be an option. Actually, it's only $1,100 over the cost of the 6.6 kW charger they're putting in the 2014 LEAFs ayway! I'll get a lot more use out of an onboard 12 kW charger than I will out of a Quick Charger, because there will be so many more desirable locations to charge at. Going up to a 20 kW onboard charger would be $3,300, 0r $2,600 more than the 6.6 kW. I'd pay for it, no question! with 240V 70A J1772, dozens of which are already installed and operational!!! - I could do San Jose to Monterey round trip with two charge stops and charging at the aquarium.

An investment to a certain level of 12 to 20 kW of onboard charger is going to be for many people more cost effective than purchasing a larger battery pack, or paying for Quick Chargers and the resulting battery degradation. We still need Quick Chargers, but they pose tradeoffs of high costs and battery degradation and they stop Quick Charge speed at 80%..

We also need 240V 70A J1772, because when we get to 200 and 300 mile battery packs, 240V 30A is going to be like 120V charging compared to the capacity of these packs that we will be getting in EVs (not the LEAF intially, maybe later...). And we need Quick Chargers also for these larger packs.

With the whimp 3.3 kW onboard charger, even with a QC on route, I'd need another QC at the aquarium, because If I spend 4 hours in Monterey, the 3.3 kW has only returned a bit over 50% charge, while a 6.6 kW would be 95%+.

With the 3.3 kW I'd need 3 QC stops in a day, shortening pack life. With an onboard 12 kW, I'd only need 20 minutes to pick up the 15 miles I need to bridge the trip in each direction - and I could AVOID any pack life degradation from a Quick Charger! I'd have several sopts to choose where to charge, since for each Quick Charge location there can be dozens or hundreds of J1772 240V 70A (Actually, 60A is enough for 12 kW, even at the common 208V supply).

Quick Charge is a great complement to the charging options we need to maximize the utility of our EVs.
We need the full spectrum from 120V when we only need a little charge of have a long time (airports for a trip, etc.) to charge, 240V 30A for when we need 20-50% charge and are spending a couple hours doing something else, 12 kW 240V for when we need 10 - 50% charge and we are WAITING for the charge - want to extend our battery life - or someone else is already using the only Quick Charger at the site! And Quick Chargers for those trips when we need 80% boost ups - but the problem is it only goes to 80% and multiple quick charges during the day is going to shorten battery life more.

I'd like to use QC for two boost ups on trips that are 200 miles each way, but the impact ot battery life has to be weighed. I haven't heard any data on the relative level of battery degradation of a 20 kW vs. 50 kW vs. 100 kW vs. 250 kW quick charging. Quick Charging has costs - not just in terms of the cost of the Quick Charge but also the lasting costs of battery degradation to your vehicle causing you range to decrease a little faster over the years.

 

[Herm]

How much would you pay Nissan for the 70A L2 charger option upgrade?.. a $2k option?, $3k?

 

[surfingslovak]

How much would you pay Nissan for the 70A L2 charger option upgrade?.. a $2k option?, $3k?

If this was feasible, I'd pay up to $5K for an onboard 12kW charger. This would greatly improve the utility of the car without negatively impacting battery life. It would allow me to utilize existing 32A L2 stations fully and bask in the glory of 70A L2 stations down the road.

But back to the original topic of the thread. I found another short video clip showing Ghosn giving an interview to CNN Money. It's been almost a year since the recording was made, but I don't think that the reality of the US market has sinked in at Nissan. The cost of a QC was quoted at $2 or $3 and it was implied that restaurants and malls might want to install fast chargers to attract business. Given the facts presented in this thread and the high demand charges in California, the largest Leaf market to date, we might not see this grand plan materialize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhx-rqGDhsM&NR=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

How much would you pay Nissan for the 70A L2 charger option upgrade?.. a $2k option?, $3k?

Rather than you pay for the expensive charger to haul around in your car, doesn't it make more sense to have a 240v/70a DC charger instead of a J1772 EVSE on every street corner?

Same amount of power, and your car is equipped for that right NOW. No out of pocket expense.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

How much would you pay Nissan for the 70A L2 charger option upgrade?.. a $2k option?, $3k?

Rather than you pay for the expensive charger to haul around in your car, doesn't it make more sense to have a 240v/70a DC charger instead of a J1772 EVSE on every street corner?

Same amount of power, and your car is equipped for that right NOW. No out of pocket expense.

Which is more realistic? LEAFs have a whimpy 3.3 kW charger now, so obviously they don't have a 70A L2 charger. We don't have anywhere close to an L2 40A charger on every street corner, so how much longer after that would it take to get more expensive 240v/70a DC chargers on every street corner... We don't have gas stations on every corner. So maybe it's every other corner but that's still a long stretch from today. A bit of a chicken and egg problem, but right now, it feels like we have neither chickens or eggs!

A lot of this rests on what percentage of the vehicle fleet is EVs. When 50% of the vehilces on the road are EVs, that might support an infratstructure of a 240v/70a DC chargers on every street corner. While we're in the single digits of the vehicle population, a more powerful onboard charger seems much more realistic. They are already doubling it from 3.3 to 6.6 kW in 2013. If they doubled it again, that would take us from 6.6 to 13.2 kW, 64A @ 240V or 50 miles of range per hour of charge.

Send me the invoice, I'll pay $3,000 for an integrated on board 13.2 kW 64A @ 240V charger right now, especially since I can use it without the worries of battery degradation. If Nissan priced the option aggressively, it wouldn;'t be $3,000 over the 6.6 kW charger in the 2013 LEAF, it would be $1500 or less. (The 50 kW Nissan DC charger sets a cost of $0.20/watt ($10,000/50,000 watts) and falling. Yes, there are issues of scaling, but the car already has 6.6 kW on board that accounts for a lot of the costs around scaling - I.e. you have a connector, you're running wires, you have a box of electronics. 6.6 kW to 13.2 kW is 2x bigger electronics and 2x bigger wire which is less than a 2x cost increase.)

And I can use 13.2 kW today at any of the high power 70A J1772 Tesla chargers in the UK and US.

Here's a small sampling of the ones available. All this hardware exists and is UL listed today. Installing more only requires finding sites. Single phase or three phase power will do fine. There is no requirement for 3 phase power.
http://www.evchargermaps.com/?SiteID=93422_1&Want=SPI%20LPI%20AVC%20OC&Zoom=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.evchargermaps.com/?SiteID=95616_2&Want=SPI%20LPI%20AVC%20OC&Zoom=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.evchargermaps.com/?SiteID=93907_3&Want=SPI%20LPI%20AVC%20OC&Zoom=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.evchargermaps.com/?SiteID=93117_3&Want=SPI%20LPI%20AVC%20OC&Zoom=17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The UL listed Clipper Creek, rated at 100 Amps to supply continuous load (80% derating of circuit ampacity) EV charging at 80A. http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/ClipperCreekInc/-strse-9/CS-dsh-100/Detail.bok" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ps. I saw this in another thread the EVTEC 20 kW ChaDeMO mobile fast charger. Still needs 400V +-10% 3 phase. Interesting that they also seem to have a 10kW version.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evtec.ch%2Fc5website%2Findex.php%2Fde%2Fprodukte%2Fmobilefastcharger%2F" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6qvqefxlA4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Technical specifications
The portable fast charger is available in two performance categories (10kW or 20kW).
No installation costs - three-phase connection CEE 16 / 32A connector
AC input voltage 400 VAC ± 10% (400VAC nominal)
DC output voltage 250 - 420VDC, current 0A - 60A
96% efficiency at 50% load, 95% at 100% load
Power factor> 0.99 at> 50% load
Built-in Ground Fault Detection
Fault current and overcurrent protection
CHAdeMO Protocol Rev 0.9

 

[ElectricVehicle]

How much would you pay Nissan for the 70A L2 charger option upgrade?.. a $2k option?, $3k?

If this was feasible, I'd pay up to $5K for an onboard 12kW charger. This would greatly improve the utility of the car without negatively impacting battery life. It would allow me to utilize existing 32A L2 stations fully and bask in the glory of 70A L2 stations down the road.

But back to the original topic of the thread. I found another short video clip showing Ghosn giving an interview to CNN Money. It's been almost a year since the recording was made, but I don't think that the reality of the US market has sinked in at Nissan. The cost of a QC was quoted at $2 or $3 and it was implied that restaurants and malls might want to install fast chargers to attract business. Given the facts presented in this thread and the high demand charges in California, the largest Leaf market to date, we might not see this grand plan materialize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhx-rqGDhsM&NR=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, I was disappointed not to see Ghosn briefly mention how the econimics of fast charging would work out, in terms of demand charges and peak versus off peak. Watching the clip, it dawned on me that the $10,000 cost of the 50 kW charger is small in comparison, to say, 3 years of demand charges, low balling at $500/mo which is $6,000 / year or $18,000 over three years and in areas with high demand charges it's more like $54,000 over three years. That's getting close to or more than the costs of a single vehcle parking space. On one hand, it's lots of money, on the other hand businesses already pay lots and lots of money for the existing parking spaces that they need for gasoline or electric vehicles.

 

[smkettner]

Technical specifications
Der MobileFastCharger ist in zwei Leistungsklassen (10kW bzw. 20kW) erhältlich. The portable fast charger is available in two performance categories (10kW or 20kW).

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5914

I think a 10kW is what you are looking for... possibly two 8 kW

Will not be long until these are available in about any power configuration.

 

[ElectricVehicle]

Here's my post in the original thread with picture and specifications in English. I updated the post above to English - I copied the specs from the Google translate page in English, but didn't notice until later that they pasted in German!!

MobileFastCharger 10 or 20 kW MNL thread

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's my post in the original thread with picture and specifications in English. I updated the post above to English - I copied the specs from the Google translate page in English, but didn't notice until later that they pasted in German!!

MobileFastCharger 10 or 20 kW MNL thread

I just sent them an email to ask if a 480v/3phase/60hz version was coming, and if it could be bumped down a bit to just below 20kW total current draw.

By the way, the email address is Swiss, not German.

 

[TonyWilliams]

How much would you pay Nissan for the 70A L2 charger option upgrade?.. a $2k option?, $3k?

Rather than you pay for the expensive charger to haul around in your car, doesn't it make more sense to have a 240v/70a DC charger instead of a J1772 EVSE on every street corner?

Same amount of power, and your car is equipped for that right NOW. No out of pocket expense.

Which is more realistic? LEAFs have a whimpy 3.3 kW charger now, so obviously they don't have a 70A L2 charger. We don't have anywhere close to an L2 40A charger on every street corner, so how much longer after that would it take to get more expensive 240v/70a DC chargers on every street corner... We don't have gas stations on every corner.

Perhaps I didn't phrase my question correctly. If both a 17kW J1772 EVSE and a 17kW DC ChaDeMo charger were available on every street corner, which would you choose?

Of course, you only have one choice now. But, if your car were equipped with a 17kW charger for the EVSE. Why would you want to pay for, and haul around, that big charger in your car, if the same power rated DC charger were available on every street corner?