Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[AndyH]

It does get fairly warm. Also, it must be kept upright when in use so you can't really use it on the go...

How warm does the thing get when it's charging - enough to be a winter camping hand warmer?

Thanks. I almost bought one last Christmas for the emergency box, and wondered how well they worked. Cheaper to keep a couple of 12V battery chargers and a stock of Eneloops, that's for sure...

 

[TomT]

Yep. It's main advantage, I believe, is that is has a very long shelf life unlike even lithium batteries...

Thanks. I almost bought one last Christmas for the emergency box, and wondered how well they worked. Cheaper to keep a couple of 12V battery chargers and a stock of Eneloops, that's for sure...

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Toshiba to participate in 4-year power-to-gas hydrogen fuel project in Scotland

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150319-toshiba.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The meat:

The project will run from 2015 to 2020 in a redevelopment area of the Methil Docks in Methil, Fife, Scotland’s third largest council area. Electricity generated by wind and solar power will be used to power a hydrogen-producing water electrolysis system. The hydrogen will be stored and used as a fuel source for hybrid commercial vehicles (HCV) powered by fuel cells and diesel engines. Toshiba will join eight other organizations in the research, including Bright Green Hydrogen Ltd., a Fife-based nonprofit organization that promotes a hydrogen future, and Fife Council, the Fife local authority.

In the project, Toshiba will deploy its hydrogen energy management system (H2 EMS), which is designed for optimal production and storage of hydrogen based on electricity supply and demand forecasts. Toshiba will also handle overall system control, allowing it to collect operating data from the entire system, including the H2 EMS, water electrolysis systems and HCV, for utilization in future projects.

The Methil Docks site already has a 750kW wind turbine and 30kW water electrolysis system, and a 200kW solar photovoltaic power generation facility, 60kW and 250-kW water electrolysis systems, hydrogen storage tanks, hydrogen stations and fuel cells will be installed for the project. Renewable energy generated by the wind and solar power systems will be used to power the facility and also to electrolyze water to produce hydrogen. Stored hydrogen will be supplied to 25 HCV via hydrogen stations and also reconverted to electricity by fuel cells for use by the project’s facilities.

 

[TonyWilliams]

What would you like to ask the commissioner?

For Immediate Release: March 24, 2015
Media Contact: Linda Rapattoni - 916-654-4989

MEDIA ADVISORY
Energy Commissioner to Speak at Opening of Diamond Bar Hydrogen Refueling Station

DIAMOND BAR, Calif. - The California Energy Commission and South Coast Air Quality Management District hold a dedication ceremony this Wednesday for the state's 11th retail hydrogen refueling station. Commissioner Janea A. Scott, lead commissioner on transportation, will be participating in the event and discussing the commission's plans for reducing the state's reliance on petroleum.

What:
Dedication of California's 11th retail hydrogen refueling station

When:
Wednesday, Mar. 25, 2015, 10 a.m. PDT

Where:
South Coast Air Quality Management District Headquarters
21865 Copley Drive, Diamond Bar

Who:
Janea A. Scott, Commissioner, California Energy Commission

"California is committed to zero emission vehicles and an infrastructure that will help build consumer confidence in them," said California Energy Commissioner Janea A. Scott, lead commissioner on transportation. "This hydrogen station is number 11 in an initial network of 100 stations that will lay the foundation for fuel-cell electric vehicles and begin enabling drivers in the South Coast region to seriously consider buying one of the new hydrogen electric vehicles being released."

Transportation accounts for nearly 40 percent of greenhouse gases with more than 26 million cars and one million trucks operating in California. Click here for more information on California's retail hydrogen refueling stations.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/drive/technology/hydrogen_fuelcell.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

Seems like they're running about 2 months behind the guesstimated opening date (1/16/15 per the CAFCP website), not that I'm expecting them to be super accurate at this stage of the rollout. What's the reason in this case - permits, contractor/other inexperience, equipment delays, other?

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Millbrook joins APC-funded consortium to develop fuel cell range-extended electric LCVs

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150330-millbrook.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Short quote:

Millbrook, one of Europe’s leading independent test and technology centers for vehicles and vehicle systems, will join a UK industry consortium to develop a new class of light commercial vehicle (LCV) combining fuel cell technology with battery electric vehicles to provide significantly improved range and rapid refueling. The consortium, led by Intelligent Energy (earlier post), will receive a £6.3-million ($9.3-million) grant from the UK’s Advanced Propulsion Centre (APC) for the £12.7-million ($19-million) project. The other partners are Frost Electronics, Frost EV, CENEX, British Gas and DHL.

ITM Power awarded US$4.3M for hydrogen refueling stations in London

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150330-itm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

DOE awarding up to $4.6M to four projects for advanced hydrogen storage materials

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/04/20150409-doeh2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ydnas7]

Tesla's 70D now has more range than the Honda FCX clarity.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tesla's 70D now has more range than the Honda FCX clarity.

And nationwide refueling at Tesla Superchargers and CHAdeMO stations (with $450 adaptor).

Over 5000 DC fast charge locations, with about a billion places to physically plug in if you had to.

 

[GRA]

Tesla's 70D now has more range than the Honda FCX clarity.

I'm not really sure what your point is in comparing a previous generation of FCHV to a brand new BEV that retails for $75k, when Toyota's getting ready to introduce an FCHV sedan with 300 miles of range for $57.5k, but okay, I'll play:

Mercedes-Benz F015 First Ride Review

http://insideevs.com/mercedes-benz-f015-first-ride-review/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This self-driving four-seater is in fact a hydrogen fuel cell plug-in, with total range of 684 miles. All-electric range stands at 125 miles.

F015 is equipped with two rear-mounted motors (268 bhp and 294 ft lbs), strong enough to hit 62 mph in 6.7 seconds. Top speed is 124 mph, although according to the Autocar passengers don’t need to pay much attention to performance in autonomous mode.

Not that this has anything to do with a car you could buy now, and I'm sure it would cost about a gazillion dollars if you could, but I do like that 684 mile range, i.e. 124 miles (200km) on the battery plus another 560 on H2. Even if they're too optimistic and it's only 400 miles on H2, that's still plenty. The only thing I'd say is that the battery range appears to be a bit too big. I'd think that shrinking it to provide 75-100 miles of range would make more sense, the point being to provide maximum efficiency for routine local driving range on the battery, while not wasting space and weight for road trips where H2's higher energy density wins.

 

[ydnas7]

Tesla's 70D now has more range than the Honda FCX clarity.

I'm not really sure what your point is in comparing a previous generation of FCHV to a brand new BEV that retails for $75k, when Toyota's getting ready to introduce an FCHV sedan with 300 miles of range for $57.5k

real Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_sbs.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It may not be apparent to some, but every time Tesla gets a new customer, that is one less potential customer for a hydrogen vehicle. It is a binary proposition.

 

[Zythryn]

...real Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_sbs.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It may not be apparent to some, but every time Tesla gets a new customer, that is one less potential customer for a hydrogen vehicle. It is a binary proposition.

I don't think that is the case.
Almost half of Tesla owners that I've asked (about 100) have come from performance or luxury cars.
The FCVs we have seen so far are neither.

I am sure some people will cross shop the two, however it certainly isn't a one for one ratio.

 

[TonyWilliams]

...real Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicles
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_sbs.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It may not be apparent to some, but every time Tesla gets a new customer, that is one less potential customer for a hydrogen vehicle. It is a binary proposition.

I don't think that is the case.
Almost half of Tesla owners that I've asked (about 100) have come from performance or luxury cars.
The FCVs we have seen so far are neither.

I am sure some people will cross shop the two, however it certainly isn't a one for one ratio.

Anybody comparing a Tesla that comes with nationwide Supercharging access (prepaid... I hate to call it free) and super high performance

--- with ---

a much lower performance H2 car that is tethered to your local hydrogen station (otherwise, H2 is not viable at all), and with less than a dozen H2 refueling sites, almost all in California only, can't fuel at home.... they need their head examined. Thoroughly examined.

With the HUGE subsidies, Toyota PR to spin it, and and somebody who wants a prepaid H2 car for a commute with a nearby H2, and who doesn't care what the H2 is made from, well, there's your market.

The Hollywood elite that would have bought this are fully immersed with Tesla. Sorry, Charlie.

Who do I see buying this? Non-tech people that see this as the "same as gasoline" experience, and all the lobbyists and government officials who are spending $20 million per year for California's 68 future H2 stations.

Another market will be the "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)" crowd who can calculate that the grossly subsidized car and "free" fuel will cost one penny less per mile to operate than their existing Prius.

I hope they can get enough fossil fuels to those stations, plus gobs of electricity, to make that H2.

 

[TonyWilliams]

8.3 years of operation, 100,000 miles, 1000 miles per month:


a) All cars include Toyota extended 125,000 mile warranty for 84 months in the price
b) Gasoline cost $3.75 per gallon average over the period
c) Electricity cost at home is $0.12 per kWh, with 3 miles/kWh consumption rate, $0.04/mile
d) Public charging at DC fast charge is $0.0695 per mile
e) Prius 48mph, RAV4 V6 at 22.5mpg, RAV4 EV at 3 miles/kWh
f) Used auto values are trade-in value at 100,000 miles using a 2006 model year from KBB.com
g) Since no 2006 RAV4 EV exists, my guess value is $20,000
h) Toyota hydrogen car "Murai" is "free" fuel at $500 monthly lease for 100 months

------------ Rav4 EV ---- Rav4 V6 ---- Prius -------Murai ---

Sales Price- $35,000 ----$30,000 ---- $27,500 --- $50,000
Warranty -- $ 1,500 ---- $ 1,500 ----- $ 1,500 --- $ 1,500
Public fuel --$ 6495 -----$16,667 ---- $ 7,000 --- $ -N/A-
Home fuel --$ 4000 -----$ -N/A- ----- $ -N/A- --- $ -N/A-
Oil changes $ -0- ------ $ 300 ------- $ -0- ----- $ -N/A-
Smog Check $ -0- --------$ 100 -------$ -0- ----- $ -0-
Maintenance $ 1300 -----$ 1900 ------ $ 1800 --- $ $1300

Net costs -- $44,295 ---- $50,467 -----$37,800 --$52,800
Home Fuel - $41,800 -----$ -N/A- -----$ -N/A- ---$ -N/A-

Net value --$ 20,000 ---- $8,300 ------ $ 4,800 --$ -0-
@ 8 years
100,000
Miles

Total cost -- $24,295 ---- $42,167 -----$33,000 --$ 52,800
-------------- $21,800


the $6495 total transportation energy cost for RAV4 EV is for 100,000 miles of driving ($0.0695 per mile) with the Toyota RAV4 EV equipped with JdeMO using only NRG / eVgo DC quick charging on the $14.95 monthly plan plus $0.10 per minute.

 

[AndyH]

Tony - a few comments on your wall of numbers: You criticize this first generation of FCEV because there's a very limited fueling infrastructure after comparing it to infrastructue (L2 and DCQC) that's been heavily publically-funded and has been slowly been developed for more than 5 years - this is heavily tilted toward the incumbent tech. You completely ignore the total travel range of the vehicles for each refueling - this also skews the result. One of the vehicles isn't even capable of using the significant CA infrastructure without buying your aftermarket conversion product (hawking should be in the proper vendor threads, anyway).

Today's FCEV are in the zone of the mid-1990s BEVs - EV1, Ranger/S10, et al - with regards to education, infrastructure and price. Remember that most of these cars had sub-100 mile range, somewhat ragged reliability, poor dealer support, zero DCQC support, and few places to get a L2 charge 'in the wild' when they were launched. The first FCEV have considerably longer range and enough public infrastructure at launch to cover the most populous areas of CA. That they can beat a Gen 2 Tesla - the absolute pinnacle of current BEV tech and capability at any price - in range right out of the gate is at least somewhat interesting to many, if not you and ydnas.

 

[JeremyW]

I didn't realize the outlet in my garage was heavily publically-funded. Pretty sure my current utility is investor owned. I don't live in government housing. I think it was originally meant for a dryer anyway.

Hey guys did you know that we drive "incumbent" tech? That was news to me too.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I didn't realize the outlet in my garage was heavily publically-funded. Pretty sure my current utility is investor owned. I don't live in government housing. I think it was originally meant for a dryer anyway.

Hey guys did you know that we drive "incumbent" tech? That was news to me too.

Ya, the state of California Energy Comission now calls H2 cars "Hydrogen Electric Vehicles". Its 1984 all over again... newspeak, Winston.

 

[ydnas7]

I don't think that is the case.
Almost half of Tesla owners that I've asked (about 100) have come from performance or luxury cars.
The FCVs we have seen so far are neither.

I am sure some people will cross shop the two, however it certainly isn't a one for one ratio.

agree totally, I was not trying to imply that they are crossed shopped, I was intending to convey that after owning a Tesla, the thought of driving a Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicle is doltish

 

[AndyH]

I didn't realize the outlet in my garage was heavily publically-funded. Pretty sure my current utility is investor owned. I don't live in government housing. I think it was originally meant for a dryer anyway.

Hey guys did you know that we drive "incumbent" tech? That was news to me too.

Ya, the state of California Energy Comission now calls H2 cars "Hydrogen Electric Vehicles". Its 1984 all over again... newspeak, Winston.

And? What drives the wheels? A motor, I think? And the motor is connected to an...let me think...oh yea, an 'inverter'! And there's a b...b...something...BATTERY! That's it! So this far is just exactly like a "real" electric vehicle. Then there's that fuel cell thing. Electrons moving...a membrane...sounds amazingly like a chemical battery - not that unlike a NiMH battery.

I think it's pretty funny that when I called the Chevy Volt a plug-in hybrid I was jumped on for berating a 'real electric car'. :lol:

Hey Jeremy - look up the history of the way those outlets got to your part of the country. You know - back in the days when the 'real' USA stopped at the Mississippi river. ROFL Yes, not only are the DCQC and L2 government subsidized (at the very least with a bucket full of regular business expenses like rapid depreciation) but so are the lowly 120V lines. Except for the original ones that ran from Niagara Falls, maybe...

 

[smkettner]

I do not consider business expenses including depreciation or accelerated depreciation to be a subsidy.

This is different from depletion allowances (oil and gas) that CAN EXCEED the cost to acquire the property.