Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[smkettner]

Sorry if this is a duplicate. I see California's future in this article.

Vancouver’s Hydrogen Bus Program Is KAPUT! High Costs Kill Hydrogen Commitment

 

[AndyH]

Sorry if this is a duplicate. I see California's future in this article.

Vancouver’s Hydrogen Bus Program Is KAPUT! High Costs Kill Hydrogen Commitment

It has been covered here a couple of times already. The buses were there for the Olympics and the project is long past over. The real surprise isn't that the buses are being taken off the road, but that they're still on.

This isnt' CA's (or Germany's) future because the latest numbers show that the US's current gas and oil fracked 'miracle' will peak in 2016 and 2017 respectfully, and that oil prices are expected to start their 'terminal rise' late this year.

In other words, enjoy the cheap gasoline and your giggles now 'cause people are going to be wishing we had invested more in alternative transportation in 3...2...1...


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tOVp1vSeVA[/youtube]
http://www.artberman.com/art-berman-shale-plays-have-years-not-decades-of-reserves-february-23-2015/

 

[AndyH]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-hoffmann/hydrogen-electricity_b_984977.html

"I Drive to My Local Petrol Station and Fill Up With 50 Litres of Wind..."

Two years ago [in 2009], Enertrag began to turn that concept into reality. Its executives laid the cornerstone for the world's first -- if small -- 21 million euro ($30.2 million) hybrid power plant that ties together all the elements of sustainable utility-scale energy production for industry and for mobility: cars, trucks, and buses, ships, and even airplanes in a ceremony presided over by a smiling German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

The concept is also designed to ensure electric base load availability, to guarantee forecast stability and to provide power for peak load needs. The plant, located some 70 miles northeast of Berlin in Prenzlau consists of three grid-connected 2 MW wind turbines; a 1 MW installed capacity biogas plant; a 500 kW (120 cubic meter/hour) electrolyzer to make the hydrogen; two 60 cubic meter/hour compressors that squeeze the hydrogen to 30bar (435 psi) for storage in five storage tanks with a combined capacity of 1,350 kg of hydrogen; and two combined heat-and-power plants of 350 kWelectric and 340 kWthermal that can operate on variable gas mixtures -- from a minimum of 30 percent biogas and 70 percent hydrogen up to 100 percent biogas.

http://juwel.fz-juelich.de:8080/dspace/bitstream/2128/4071/1/HS1_8_Crotogino_rev0426.pdf

Large-Scale Hydrogen Underground Storage for Securing Future Energy Supplies

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

H2 Logic delivers H2 fast fueling station for Hamburg; first to achieve German CEP SAE J2601 approval

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150317-h2logic.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[ydnas7]

Thanks for the links ydnas7. It's just so easy to see the numbers don't add up in the hydrogen hoax.

part 3
http://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11556/why-fuel-cell-cars-dont-work-part-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would add, the way to reduce Platinum required is to down size the fuel cell stack, and run it harder. There is longevity issues with that, and it places more of a burden on the hybrid battery, but HFC don't have much choice. Even so, its still obvious that its geologically impossible for platinum based fuel cells to replace the world's vehicle needs.

http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/platinum/mcs-2015-plati.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[AndyH]

I would add, the way to reduce Platinum required is to down size the fuel cell stack, and run it harder.

Why would you add that if you were interested in accuracy? There's already information in this thread - from real scientists from national labs and research facilities that publish in journals (not in blogs) - that not only already have significantly reduced the amount of platinum used in a fuel cell stack (which is one reason the price has come down so rapidly to this point) but that are also using nano-scale structures to take another order of magnitude or two out of the requirement. We'll ignore the work on membranes that don't use platinum at all...

 

[smkettner]

I would add, the way to reduce Platinum required is to down size the fuel cell stack, and run it harder.

I have wondered why the stack is so large. Seems like with a little more battery the FC could be half to one-third the size. More of a range extender vs direct power to the motor. Maybe it does not scale down very well.

 

[AndyH]

I have wondered why the stack is so large. Seems like with a little more battery the FC could be half to one-third the size. More of a range extender vs direct power to the motor. Maybe it does not scale down very well.

They scale just fine.

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!minipak/c156u

 

[JeremyW]

Considering that my Note 4 battery is 12.76 Wh, that's not particularly impressive.

 

[smkettner]

I have wondered why the stack is so large. Seems like with a little more battery the FC could be half to one-third the size. More of a range extender vs direct power to the motor. Maybe it does not scale down very well.

They scale just fine.

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!minipak/c156u

Rated power would need to be close to 10 kW. Those are 2 watts so you only need 5,000 of them. Not really scaled down.

 

[TomT]

I actually spent time with that device as a beta tester a while back... In fact, it doesn't scale all that well... It only puts out two watts and has a rated capacity of slightly less than 14 W/Hr.
In practice, I found it was closer to 12 at an output of 1/3 amp at 5 volts. Quite large and heavy for that amount of energy, and limited in what it can power at that output. And at 39 bucks a pop for the Hydrostik, it is also quite expensive for the amount of energy... It may serve a purpose but to say it scales is a disservice.

They scale just fine.

 

[AndyH]

I have wondered why the stack is so large. Seems like with a little more battery the FC could be half to one-third the size. More of a range extender vs direct power to the motor. Maybe it does not scale down very well.

They scale just fine.

http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!minipak/c156u

Rated power would need to be close to 10 kW. Those are 2 watts so you only need 5,000 of them. Not really scaled down.

<facepalm> "They're too big!" "They're too small!" Here you are, Goldilocks. :lol:

Horizon has commercial units that range from 210 mW through 10KW and they're modular. Other companies ship larger units. They scale just fine.

210 mW
http://www.horizoneducational.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/FCSU-023-datasheet.pdf

3KW EV range extender
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!transport-solutions/cmiq

5KW stack - fuel cell Legos.
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!h-series-stacks/c52t

 

[AndyH]

I actually spent time with that device as a beta tester a while back... In fact, it doesn't scale all that well... It only puts out two watts and has a rated capacity of slightly less than 14 W/Hr.
In practice, I found it was closer to 12 at an output of 1/3 amp at 5 volts. Quite large and heavy for that amount of energy, and limited in what it can power at that output. And at 39 bucks a pop for the Hydrostik, it is also quite expensive for the amount of energy... It may serve a purpose but to say it scales is a disservice.

They scale just fine.

the Hydrostik is a hydride tank - you know they're refillable, right?

I cannot understand why you'd say PEMs don't scale. They can be made stupid tiny, ginormous, and sizes in between. Stacks...STACK! They're modular. Need 5KW? Get one. Need 20KW? Get a 20, or four 5s.

What definition are YOU using for 'scalability'? :shock:

 

[smkettner]

I don't need one actually. You will need to sell it to the auto manufacturers that think hydrogen cells are the future.
I think charging from the grid is going to work better for me right now.

 

[TomT]

Yes, if you buy their $450-$750 Hydrofill/Pro or the equivalent from Shanghai... The refill limit is 100, by the way; but I'm sure you knew that.

the Hydrostik is a hydride tank - you know they're refillable, right?

 

[AndyH]

Yes, if you buy their $450-$750 Hydrofill/Pro or the equivalent from Shanghai... The refill limit is 100, by the way; but I'm sure you knew that.

the Hydrostik is a hydride tank - you know they're refillable, right?

You're right. I'm not sure what they did with their regular (old?) Hydrofill box - it wasn't as silly expensive. How warm does the thing get when it's charging - enough to be a winter camping hand warmer?

 

[AndyH]

I don't need one actually. You will need to sell it to the auto manufacturers that think hydrogen cells are the future.
I think charging from the grid is going to work better for me right now.

Stick near the grid, then - that's totally fine. I like getting off-grid from time to time - that's why I have a battery powered chainsaw and not a corded model. It's good to have plenty of options, yes?

edit...spelling...no, "spelling checker" I did now say now.

 

[TomT]

It does get fairly warm. Also, it must be kept upright when in use so you can't really use it on the go...

How warm does the thing get when it's charging - enough to be a winter camping hand warmer?

 

[smkettner]

I am not sure wielding a battery powered or corded chainsaw is my vision of off-grid activity.
Good to see a sense of humor now and then. :lol:

Really need a hydrogen powered chainsaw to keep this on topic

 

[GRA]

I would add, the way to reduce Platinum required is to down size the fuel cell stack, and run it harder.

Why would you add that if you were interested in accuracy? There's already information in this thread - from real scientists from national labs and research facilities that publish in journals (not in blogs) - that not only already have significantly reduced the amount of platinum used in a fuel cell stack (which is one reason the price has come down so rapidly to this point) but that are also using nano-scale structures to take another order of magnitude or two out of the requirement. We'll ignore the work on membranes that don't use platinum at all...

While I don't normally bother to post links to articles re fuel cell research that's still in the lab, the number of papers on reducing, eliminating and/or substituting for platinum in fuel cells are legion, just like papers on new battery tech. Here's one from yesterday, via GCC:

New bimetallic copper-titanium hydrogen evolution catalyst outperforms platinum by more than 2x

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150317-udel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As Andy mentions, reduction in the amount of Pt required has already played a large part in the dramatic drop in the cost of fuel cells over the past dozen years or so, and there doesn't appear to be any slackening in research that would continue the process. Since I've provided a link to one lab research article I might as well do another (I promise I won't make a habit of it). This one's another announcement of a (lab) improvement in electrolysis:

Highly efficient nickel-iron/nickel foam electrode for OER in water-splitting

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/03/20150317-unsw.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;