Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[AndyH]

I'm not saying the public perception/belief/paradigm is 'correct' (not that it would be a valid judgement anyway...) but driving to a fuel station and 'pumping gas' IS the conditioned expectation. And in areas where H2 is available (which are the only areas vehicles will be sold/leased) these vehicles will fit directly into the public's expectation.

So yes - it's a very fair and appropriate comparison.

The difference is that Prius would use existing infrastructure. With zero infrastructure, with a H2 FCEV we are tied to the nearest fueling station.

evnow - can you see how logic and reason have been draining from this thread since the first post? Seriously - the chicken/egg problem of refueling infrastructure is a serious problem for ANYTHING that isn't gasoline. Take it from someone that's most recently driven a pair of German diesel cars more than 400,000 miles - it's not easy to find diesel in many areas of the US either! I was using a printed list of fuel stations and a GPS - even with 700 miles of range it's hard to stay on the road on the East Coast.

CNG is growing 'down here' - even though in the country's 7th largest city there are is only ONE public refueling station.

Again folks - it's absolutely no surprise that vehicles need a fueling infrastructure. That's why Hyundai will NOT deliver their FCEV Tucson to an area without a fuel station, and why H2 is being installed around the world. Recall the quote from the past page or two - Hyundai said they KNOW it's a chicken/egg thing - and they're delivering vehicles.

WWED (What Would Elon Do?) - Tesla delivered CARS before installing supercharge stations, right?

 

[TomT]

Sigh... Why do I even bother... The comparison in question was a Prius versus an ICE to a FCV versus an ICE... An EV wasn't in that equation.

Hydrogen is almost identical to the public's expectation, Tom - it's the EV that's the departure.

 

[TomT]

The big difference: You could still use and fuel them a plethora of other places WITHOUT a Supercharger Station... Not so with Hydrogen.

WWED (What Would Elon Do?) - Tesla delivered CARS before installing supercharge stations, right?

 

[smkettner]

Are current H2 stations open 24/7/365?
Full serve or self serve?

 

[AndyH]

Are current H2 stations open 24/7/365?
Full serve or self serve?

Yes - and not only have the stations been linked up thread, but I telephoned four of them in SoCal to get prices.

 

[evnow]

Again folks - it's absolutely no surprise that vehicles need a fueling infrastructure. That's why Hyundai will NOT deliver their FCEV Tucson to an area without a fuel station, and why H2 is being installed around the world. Recall the quote from the past page or two - Hyundai said they KNOW it's a chicken/egg thing - and they're delivering vehicles.

WWED (What Would Elon Do?) - Tesla delivered CARS before installing supercharge stations, right?

Andy, you are not acknowledging the big difference between H2 & EV.
- There is already a very very huge infrastructure in place for EVs, that allows daily home charging. What we need is a highway travel infrastructure, even there it is just the last mile problem only.
- With H2 nothing exists. No large scale producers, no distributors, no distribution pipes etc, no retailers and (so, obviously) no cars

WWED - with EVs he would just need to build that last mile super charger network, since all other parts of the equation, including for daily home charging already exist. With H2 he wouldn't know where to start - so, as he already indicated - he doesn't think much of H2.

http://www.wired.com/2013/10/elon-musk-hydrogen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“And then they’ll say certain technologies like fuel cell … oh god … fuel cell is so bullshit. Except in a rocket.”

 

[AndyH]

Sigh... Why do I even bother... The comparison in question was a Prius versus an ICE to a FCV versus an ICE... An EV wasn't in that equation.

Hydrogen is almost identical to the public's expectation, Tom - it's the EV that's the departure.

I don't know why you bother, Tom, since you appear to miss - multiple times in this thread - that the only difference for a typical consumer between gasoline, diesel, LPG, and H2 is the shape and/or color of the nozzle. I've attended 'alternative fuel' meets/greets here in San Antonio - they're mostly CNG/LNG events with a token Leaf and Volt. The typical American is conditioned to expect - without questioning - fitting a fuel stop into their 'out and about' time.

 

[AndyH]

The big difference: You could still use and fuel them a plethora of other places WITHOUT a Supercharger Station... Not so with Hydrogen.

WWED (What Would Elon Do?) - Tesla delivered CARS before installing supercharge stations, right?

It's actually not a 'big difference'. Again - you're looking at it from the viewpoint of BEV owner/operator. Repeat after me:

THE TARGET MARKET for these vehicles is NOT the BEV community - it's the ICE COMMUNITY.

The first FCEL vehicles are ONLY BEING SHIPPED TO LOCATIONS WITH A REFUELING INFRASTRUCTURE. Period. Your assertion that one cannot refuel from home is false - the equipment to do so is available from a number of vendors off the shelf. Smaller versions are in use in labs all over the world because locally-producing H2 for gas chromatography is less expensive and safer than using pressure tanks. This equipment is even available on ebay.

 

[JeremyW]

THE TARGET MARKET for these vehicles is NOT the BEV community - it's the ICE COMMUNITY.

Then why are you even on here? You don't own a leaf. Go pester "the target market" about how great hydrogen is on some ICE forum.

 

[AndyH]

Again folks - it's absolutely no surprise that vehicles need a fueling infrastructure. That's why Hyundai will NOT deliver their FCEV Tucson to an area without a fuel station, and why H2 is being installed around the world. Recall the quote from the past page or two - Hyundai said they KNOW it's a chicken/egg thing - and they're delivering vehicles.

WWED (What Would Elon Do?) - Tesla delivered CARS before installing supercharge stations, right?

Andy, you are not acknowledging the big difference between H2 & EV.
- There is already a very very huge infrastructure in place for EVs, that allows daily home charging. What we need is a highway travel infrastructure, even there it is just the last mile problem only.
- With H2 nothing exists. No large scale producers, no distributors, no distribution pipes etc, no retailers and (so, obviously) no cars

This is incorrect. We've covered it in this thread. 1/3 of the H2 used in the USA is generated in California. CA has the vast majority of refueling stations and if anyone still recalls the point of this thread, they're planting more. Again - it's in this thread. We have wind to H2 equipment in operation in this country now. We have H2 refueling stations reforming biogas from landfills, others powered solely from PV, others that are grid-tied PV.

This is the beginning of a revolution in transportation. It's no different than the release of the first FAX machine or the first electric light bulb. They'll never work - there's no one to talk to and no power lines. It's an absurd argument!

WWED - with EVs he would just need to build that last mile super charger network, since all other parts of the equation, including for daily home charging already exist. With H2 he wouldn't know where to start - so, as he already indicated - he doesn't think much of H2.

Yes, we've talked about Elon and H2. What do you expect the CEO of a BEV company to say?

Again - BEVs in their current form are not and cannot be a 100% ICE replacement.

 

[TomT]

I know you are not this blind! Do you REALLY think that John Q. Public is going to buy and install a home hydrogen station? As they say on SNL: REALLY?! REALLY?!

Your assertion that one cannot refuel from home is false - the equipment to do so is available from a number of vendors off the shelf.

 

[AndyH]

I know you are not this blind! Do you REALLY think that John Q. Public is going to buy and install a home hydrogen station? As they say on SNL: REALLY?! REALLY?!

Your assertion that one cannot refuel from home is false - the equipment to do so is available from a number of vendors off the shelf.

Tom - did you forget the point of this? That customers are already conditioned to drive to centralized refueling? Where have I heard that before? Let me think... Oh yes!

The big fly in that ointment is that the Prius did not require owners to do anything different than what they had always done... Not so with Hydrogen cars.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=332930#p332930

I have to ask - do you think that it's better to be like a Prius and go to a filling station? Or is it better to refuel from home? Or is it best to have a combination of options?

As for home refueling - it's still yes - and I've linked to people that have in this thread. Thread too long? Let me help again...

Honda - home H2 refueling since 2004:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6578442/ns/us_news-environment/t/fill-er-home-hydrogen/#.U3vjvPldXpA
Honda - H2 in 2009:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/03/13/retire-us-honda-hydrogen-idUSTRE62C01Z20100313

One of the big barriers to hydrogen car deployment is the lack of refueling infrastructure, leading Honda to bet that the future lies in combining a public station network with a more modest home option.

East Coast, USA: H2 car, lawn mower, golf cart, home power
http://hydrogenhouseproject.org/
Home generation/power in Washington since 2004
http://www.hfcletter.com/issues/XXII_9/stories/978-1.html

News flash - they install natural gas compressors in their garage to refill their CNG Hondas, too.
http://www.cngnow.com/vehicles/refueling/Pages/refueling-at-home.aspx

Maybe John and Mary Public aren't as deserving of quite as much condescension after all?

 

[GRA]

THE TARGET MARKET for these vehicles is NOT the BEV community - it's the ICE COMMUNITY.

Then why are you even on here? You don't own a leaf. Go pester "the target market" about how great hydrogen is on some ICE forum.

While the target market for FCEVs is aimed at providing a direct replacement for the typical ICE driver, the initial market will be early adopters who are interested in AFVs (Edit Like this guy: http://science.kqed.org/quest/video/highway-to-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), and those people will be the ones to evangelize/familiarize the general public, just as has been the case with BEVs/PHEVs, or for that matter HEVs/CNG/diesels.

 

[AndyH]

I'm not saying the public perception/belief/paradigm is 'correct' (not that it would be a valid judgement anyway...) but driving to a fuel station and 'pumping gas' IS the conditioned expectation. And in areas where H2 is available (which are the only areas vehicles will be sold/leased) these vehicles will fit directly into the public's expectation.

So yes - it's a very fair and appropriate comparison.

The difference is that Prius would use existing infrastructure. With zero infrastructure, with a H2 FCEV we are tied to the nearest fueling station.

From here: http://cafcp.org/stationmap we have this:





The currently open stations look like this:

LA/Harbor City

Newport Beach

Burbank

LA west

Palm Springs

Is there zero infrastructure or is refueling available?

How is this different for a Leaf owner trying to drive cross-country? Tesla supercharger stations are unavailable. There's no widespread infrastructure yet. Yes - everyone's got a 120V outlet, but just try to tell that to a member of the general public. My motorcycle doesn't have an on-board charger or a J1772 port - I cannot use any of the commercial infrastructure that I've been lobbying for. But I'm not going to stop!

Again - there is sufficient publicly available refueling infrastructure in the areas that will receive the cars first. There is more infrastructure on the way - including apparently the road to Reno. And yes - home refueling is available and is designed to be powered by rooftop PV.

While I do understand the rabid pro-BEV sentiment, keep in mind that BEV numbers aren't yet into the 'Early Adopter' sales volume - we're still in the first 2.5% - the innovators. We have a way to go before we flesh out the next 13.5% early adopters. The general public won't be switching to EVs of ANY stripe until either we have a LOT more EVs on the road (nearly to a fully-filled mass of early adopters) or some sort of crisis. Why in the world - especially after the fiasco of the late 1990s - would we want to either limit the breadth of available EVs or limit competition and the more rapid development that is bringing all of us?

Ultimately, that's why I'm participating in this thread, Jeremy. Because I believe that we have both the wisdom and the tenacity required to keep pulling this clean transportation revolution into existence.

 

[GRA]

Meant to post the press release from the CEC some days ago, but forgot. This details all the new stations they're supporting, including the First Element ones being backed by Toyota which I mentioned earlier. Anyway, here's the release:

For Immediate Release: May 1, 2014
Media Contact: Teresa Schilling - 916-654-4989

California Investing Nearly $50 Million in Hydrogen Refueling Stations

Accelerates construction of 28 new stations and one mobile refueler to boost statewide public network

SACRAMENTO - The California Energy Commission today announced it will invest $46.6 million to accelerate the development of publicly accessible hydrogen refueling stations in California in order to promote a consumer market for zero-emission fuel cell vehicles.

The recommended funding awards to eight different applicants were made through the Energy Commission's Alternative and Renewable Fuel and Vehicle Technology Program (ARFVTP). The recommended awards include six 100 percent renewable hydrogen refueling stations and will add 13 new locations in Northern California and 15 in Southern California, strategically located to create a refueling network along major corridors and in regional centers. The mobile refueler will provide added reliability to the early hydrogen refueling network to provide refueling capability when stations are off-line.

"Transitioning to low- and zero-emission vehicles is critical to meeting air quality goals and to reducing the emissions that lead to climate change," said Energy Commissioner Janea A. Scott. "With this funding, California will accelerate the construction of a reliable and affordable refueling infrastructure to support the commercial market launch of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles."

The recommended awards will advance Gov. Brown's executive order directing state government to support and facilitate the rapid commercialization of zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) in California, with a benchmark that by 2020 "the State's zero-emission vehicle infrastructure will be able to support up to one million vehicles."

Today's recommended awards will add 28 new stations to 9 existing and the 17 stations currently under development. These 54 hydrogen refueling stations represent significant progress towards meeting California's goal of establishing a 100-station network to support the full commercialization of fuel cell vehicles in California.

Award recipients:

Air Liquide Industrial US LP will receive $2,125,000 to construct a 100% renewable hydrogen refueling station in Palo Alto.

FirstElement Fuel, Inc. will receive $2,902,000 to construct two 100 percent renewable refueling stations in Los Angeles, and $24,667,000 for 17 stations in Campbell, Coalinga, Costa Mesa, Hayward, Laguna Niguel, Lake Forest, La Canada Flintridge, Long Beach, Mill Valley, San Diego, San Jose, Santa Barbara, Saratoga, South Pasadena, South San Francisco, Redwood City and Truckee.

HyGen Industries, LLC will receive $5,306,814 to construct three 100 percent renewable hydrogen refueling stations in Orange, Pacific Palisades and Rohnert Park.

Institute of Gas Technology will receive $999,677 for a mobile refueling unit.

ITM Power, Inc. will receive $2,125,000 to construct a station in Riverside.

Linde LLC will receive $4,250,000 to construct stations in Oakland and San Ramon.

Hydrogen Technology & Energy Corporation (HTEC) will receive $2,125,000 to construct a station in Woodside.

Ontario CNG Station Inc. will receive $2,125,000 to construct a station in Ontario.

Demonstrating California's commitment to the successful establishment of a viable hydrogen fueling infrastructure supporting the rollout of fuel cell vehicles, the Energy Commission announced the funding opportunity, Hydrogen Refueling Infrastructure (PON-13-607), on November 22, 2013. Numerous public workshops were conducted along with a survey of interested stakeholders to develop the most successful hydrogen solicitation to date, which generated 140 applications requesting more than $130 million for station construction and operating and maintenance support. Applicants were scored on set criteria, including team qualifications, market viability, project readiness, project implementation, project budget, economic benefits, hydrogen refueling station performance, mobile refueler performance, innovation, and sustainability.

To date, the ARFVTP has invested more than $400 million in at least 260 alternative fuel, infrastructure, and vehicle technology projects. The Legislature's reauthorization of the ARFVTP in 2013 continues the State's annual program investments of up to $100 million, and dedicates up to $20 million of this amount to the installation of hydrogen refueling infrastructure. Funding is derived from surcharges on vehicle and boat registrations, and smog check and license plate fees.

Fuel cell vehicles are zero-emission, using hydrogen to fuel a car and producing only water vapor and heat in the process. Hydrogen sold through refueling stations funded by the Energy Commission must be 33 percent renewable. Renewable hydrogen can be produced using biomethane from biomass or landfills, or from water electrolysis using renewable energy sources such as wind or solar power. The Energy Commission has concluded that a fuel cell vehicle using 33 percent renewable hydrogen can be as clean for the environment as an electric vehicle, resulting in greenhouse gas reductions of about 68 percent compared to gasoline powered vehicles. Greater environmental benefits can be achieved as the amount of renewable hydrogen content increases. Comparable to gasoline-powered vehicles, fuel cell vehicles can be refueled within 5-7 minutes and have a range of 300+ miles on a single tank.

 

[Stoaty]

I have become so used to NOT going to a gas station that FCV feel like a step backward to me. It's been 3 months since I went to a gas station, just went this weekend to get some gasoline for a trip to the Sierra. Not expecting a hydrogen refueling station in Kennedy Meadows or Lone Pine any time soon so I don't think a FCV would be of much use to me.

 

[WetEV]

I have become so used to NOT going to a gas station that FCV feel like a step backward to me. It's been 3 months since I went to a gas station, just went this weekend to get some gasoline for a trip to the Sierra.

+1 That stuff smells bad.

 

[smkettner]

Looks promising for LA/OC and SF.
Lots missing too but that will fill in if the cars actually lease.

I plan to check out that Newport location the next couple days

Too bad EVs have not had the same QC support.

 

[Nubo]

I have become so used to NOT going to a gas station that FCV feel like a step backward to me.

Same here.

It's been 3 months since I went to a gas station, just went this weekend to get some gasoline for a trip to the Sierra.

Did you have to kneel in a little room with a sliding window? :lol:

"Forgive me, Exxon for I have sinned. It's been 2 1/2 years since my last fill-up"….

 

[DaveEV]

WWED (What Would Elon Do?) - Tesla delivered CARS before installing supercharge stations, right?

Easy to do when you can charge at home in any garage.

Let me know when I can buy a home H2 fueling station for $1-2000 for my FCEV and install it in my garage. All you've linked to are PR bits of vaporware.

Too bad EVs have not had the same QC support.

So let's see, the most recent grant was $50M for 28 stations or about $1.8M / station.

How many QC stations would that build? It's been estimated that it costs Tesla about $200k per SuperCharger location (with 6 plugs). Cost would probably be similar for 6 Nissan CHAdeMO stations at a single location.

Could you imagine how much better the LEAF would sell if there was 28 well positioned charging hot spots with even just 3 CHAdeMO plugs per location in California instead of stations being scattered about haphazardly?

What's rediculous is the $100M eVgo settlement which is only going to install 200 "Freedom Stations". These Freedom Stations only have a single CHAdeMO plug and a single 30A J1772 plug. What a boondoggle. These Freedom Stations should have been stubbed out for at least 2-3 QC stations per location (with those stubs being accessible to other QC providers to avoid giving eVgo a monopoly) along with stubs for 4-8 L2 stations or more. That $100M does include funds for another 10,000 plugs across another 1,000 locations - if that's really 10 plugs per location and they are accessible to the public, that could be very useful, though not as useful as more QC stations.