Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[AndyH]

There was an NPR story on the 11th about storage on the California power grid. It was disappointing to hear that NPR seemed to be parroting industry talking points. And of course, nothing about hydrogen.

That because California has no plans to use hydrogen as grid storage. Hydro, gas turbines, demand response, batteries, and CAISO's new Energy Imbalance Market are being used to make up for intermittent renewables.

I understand, thanks. My question is "why not?!" It's clear from both studies and real-world installations that H2 generation/storage is less expensive than sodium sulfur batteries - yet they're buying more batteries.

If the citizens of Germany, San Antonio and Denton, TX, and other areas can drive their region's energy choices, why can't Californians?
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/12/02/city-owned-texas-utility-already-serves-40-renewable-energy/

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Is there a PlugShare style site that shows H2 stations?

 

[AndyH]

Is there a PlugShare style site that shows H2 stations?

Sorta.

The Federal site only shows 10 stations:
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_locations.html

This map shows plenty of locations were fuel cell vehicles are used and refueled, but most are warehouses and such and not public refueling stations:
https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=215394972384509175867.0004da7b8ad896f04c443

This California Fuel Cell Partnership has info for CA stations:
http://cafcp.org/stationmap

That's all I've found so far.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The last one, cafcp, has a link to "other maps" with more, even electric.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

There is supposed to be a station at JBLM but guessing its military access only. (Joint Base Lewis McChord near Tacoma WA)

 

[GRA]

Here's an example of an ideal use for a FCHV:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089195_hydrogen-as-electric-car-range-extender-french-tests-start-soon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I especially like how they highlight one of the main operational advantages of fuel cells, their lack of a range hit due to use of heat/defrost. Given the choice between BEV or FCEV/HV in a cold climate, I know which one I'd rather have, even if I'm benefiting from 'inefficiency'. That sort of thing's what's needed for EVs to conquer mainstream customers, barring carrying around lots of battery just for HVAC use.

 

[AndyH]

Still concerned about the viability of H2? Don't think that we'll have enough H2 generation to fuel 'all those' cars? Check THIS out!

http://discover.umn.edu/news/environment/wind-power-helps-make-agriculture-more-sustainable

Wind to H2 and ammonia. Amazing what can happen when one tears down walls and lets solutions spill across fiefdoms.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Still concerned about the viability of H2? Don't think that we'll have enough H2 generation to fuel 'all those' cars? Check THIS out!

http://discover.umn.edu/news/environment/wind-power-helps-make-agriculture-more-sustainable

Wind to H2 and ammonia. Amazing what can happen when one tears down walls and lets solutions spill across fiefdoms.

nice story! and really shows how much we can do with the renewable power. it is really storage of power in a unique and valuable way

 

[GRA]

From ABG:

"88,000 interested in Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell, first units due in 60 days"

http://green.autoblog.com/2014/01/23/88000-interested-hyundai-tucson-fuel-cell-ev/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course, people clicking on a link hardly equates to the number of serious potential lessees, but it is encouraging.

 

[smkettner]

Hyundai will lease the CUV for $499 a month (and $2,999 down) for 36 months.

Closed end lease only? No thanks. Just an EV1 rerun.

 

[GRA]

Hyundai will lease the CUV for $499 a month (and $2,999 down) for 36 months.

Closed end lease only? No thanks. Just an EV1 rerun.

A lease is fine by me at this point, and shouldn't be an issue for most EV customers when we're all recommending that they lease now, owing to the rapid changes in technology. As mentioned upthread this is a better deal than Toyota offered with the RAV4 EV originally, especially since Hyundai is paying for the fuel as well as all maintenance.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

a lot of people can undoubtedly afford to pay those lease rates but considering the cost of fuel, it could get expensive. now correct me if I am wrong but werent some of the leases providing fuel as part of the lease?

 

[TomT]

Yep, the Hyundai includes fuel... Not disclosed (yet) is where one has to go to get said fuel...

a lot of people can undoubtedly afford to pay those lease rates but considering the cost of fuel, it could get expensive. now correct me if I am wrong but werent some of the leases providing fuel as part of the lease?

 

[AndyH]

Yep, the Hyundai includes fuel... Not disclosed (yet) is where one has to go to get said fuel...

It's been disclosed in this thread, actually...

 

[TomT]

No, apparently Hyundai is making some of their own accommodations for fill-ups that will include a few that are Hyundai only... Where and how has not yet been disclosed.

Yep, the Hyundai includes fuel... Not disclosed (yet) is where one has to go to get said fuel...

It's been disclosed in this thread, actually...

 

[AndyH]

No, apparently Hyundai is making some of their own accommodations for fill-ups that will include a few that are Hyundai only... Where and how has not yet been disclosed.

Yep, the Hyundai includes fuel... Not disclosed (yet) is where one has to go to get said fuel...

It's been disclosed in this thread, actually...

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/06/hyundai-hydrogen-station-will-refuel-20-vehicles-a-day/

The answer's not only 'in' this thread, it's the purpose of this thread. :lol:

 

[TomT]

No, it is not. I am referring to additional stations that are NOT part of that announcement nor covered here. But since you always like to have the last word, whether or not it is the correct word, go ahead and comment on this and you'll have it...

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/06/hyundai-hydrogen-station-will-refuel-20-vehicles-a-day/
The answer's not only 'in' this thread, it's the purpose of this thread. :lol:

 

[smkettner]

Free fuel does give value to the lease. Especially if no limit to lease miles.
Still a PITN compared to charging overnight at home.

 

[GRA]

Free fuel does give value to the lease. Especially if no limit to lease miles.
Still a PITN compared to charging overnight at home.

True, but for those of us who rent and can't charge at home that's a non-issue. For those who can afford it a FCHV is the way to go, as you get the best of both worlds.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Free fuel does give value to the lease. Especially if no limit to lease miles.
Still a PITN compared to charging overnight at home.

True, but for those of us who rent and can't charge at home that's a non-issue. For those who can afford it a FCHV is the way to go, as you get the best of both worlds.

I rent and have moved 3 times since getting first LEAF. there is no issues finding a plug for the majority of renters. H2 filling stations I will have to guess is likely to be an errand that MOST will have to devote an hour per session.

at best we are looking at probably no better than 20 minutes and that will cover a very small percentage of new H leasers i am guessing

and unless I am mistaken; where to refuel has never been the point of this thread. the title should have made that obvious especially if you are a tax paying citizen of CA