Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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ydnas7 said:
GRA said:
Edit: Can you confirm or correct me on this; I had a look at the detonation and flammability chart in the hydrogen safety link, and if I understand it correctly, methane (CH4), ethane (C2H6?), propane (C3H8?) and butane (C4H10?), if my dim memory of which hydrocarbons are which is correct, all seem to have lower detonation and/or flammability % limits than H2. Gasoline too. Yes, or have I got it bass-ackwards? Let's just say that chemistry was a long time ago, and pretty rudimentary at that.

yes, you have that correct

the explosive limits and detonation limts are centered around a balanced reaction, 1x H2 molecule reacts with half an O2 molecule. 1 x C1H4 molecule reacts with 2x O2 molecules. etc etc the smaller the molecule, the less oxygen it can burn, the higher the fuel % needed for a balanced reaction.
Hydrogen's range of both detonation and flamability limits is impressively wide compare to hydrocarbons.
But starts at a considerably higher concentration, right? It's odd, but looking at one reference for H2-air or maybe it was Hydrox dive gas mixtures, it showed a lower flammability limit at only 4%, which is well below the limit shown in the ref you provided. Perhaps that was assuming higher ata, although that wasn't mentioned (and almost certainly would have been, as saturation diving and Oxtox limits at higher partial pressures were also discussed).
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
GRA said:
DNAinaGoodWay said:
To get back to H2, are FCV drivers signing an agreement that sticks them with a $500/month payment and a car that sits still because the promised included fuel is simply unavailable? That's got to act as a bigger brake on adoption than the adjustments needed to adopt BEVs.
Which is why Toyota and the other companies are stepping in to make sure that ceases to be an issue.

As they should. Meanwhile, leasees pay $500/month for fuel free cars, are they getting refunds? Assuming the OEMs aren't sending round the AAA H2 truck to get them going.
Make enough noise and I expect they will get some refunds. Hopefully, Hyundai doesn't want to generate bad publicity the way Nissan did, by screwing the early adopters.
 
GRA said:
Make enough noise and I expect they will get some refunds. Hopefully, Hyundai doesn't want to generate bad publicity the way Nissan did, by screwing the early adopters.

don't know, thats a $130k vehicle being leased at $500 per month including fuel. - there must be a catch.

i have a sneaking suspicion that not all H2 refueling stations are going to provide adequate high speed refueling, some will handle multiple cars in sequence, some won't. Perhaps the old Honda Clarity will have more real world range than a Mirai/Tucson if only 350bar H2 can be depended upon.
 
ydnas7 said:
GRA said:
Make enough noise and I expect they will get some refunds. Hopefully, Hyundai doesn't want to generate bad publicity the way Nissan did, by screwing the early adopters.
don't know, thats a $130k vehicle being leased at $500 per month including fuel. - there must be a catch.

i have a sneaking suspicion that not all H2 refueling stations are going to provide adequate high speed refueling, some will handle multiple cars in sequence, some won't. Perhaps the old Honda Clarity will have more real world range than a Mirai/Tucson if only 350bar H2 can be depended upon.
Not sure what the Tucson's cost is, but it is at least a half-generation older fuel cell tech than the Mirai, as the stack dates to 2012 and puts out 1.65kW/l while the Mirai's is rated at 3kW/l. I'm not aware that Toyota has ever said how much the Mirai costs, although they did say that they'd got the stack (or maybe it was the entire fuel cell system, including tanks etc.) down to about $50k. I don't see any way that the rest of the car adds up to an additional $80k, except due to low production volume. That they are heavily subsidizing the car is undoubted, especially as Toyota is apparently eating the expired $8,000 federal credit themselves in their lease/purchase deals (per ievs), while lobbying to get it reinstated (good luck with that in this Congress).

All the new stations and the old ones being retrofitted will have 700 bar capability, so I don't see that as an issue. The 350 bar fueling systems are completely separate, so even if the 700 bar system goes down people will still be able to get a half fill from the 350 bar one. The 350 bar systems are mainly being kept for commercial vehicles that use them, but at least some will be upgraded with Point of Sale metering and payment.
 
a $130k vehicle being leased at $500 per month including fuel. - there must be a catch.
refers to the Hyundai H2 fuel cell vehicle

what the Mirai costs, don't know, somehow I doubt the sale price covers the lost revenue for leasing out the factory in which its made (LFA facility).

back to Hydrogen infrastructure
Prediction, The entities that use California grant money for to build H2 infrastructure are going to want money to pay for keeping the H2 station open. I predict this will come from the funding for new stations, the result, the original target of 100 station will reduce to 85 stations, then the next 25 new stations will be funded, then no more will be funded as ongoing costs keep the tally to 75 stations.
 
ydnas7 said:
a $130k vehicle being leased at $500 per month including fuel. - there must be a catch.
refers to the Hyundai H2 fuel cell vehicle
Where does the $130k figure come from?

ydnas7 said:
what the Mirai costs, don't know, somehow I doubt the sale price covers the lost revenue for leasing out the factory in which its made (LFA facility).

back to Hydrogen infrastructure
Prediction, The entities that use California grant money for to build H2 infrastructure are going to want money to pay for keeping the H2 station open. I predict this will come from the funding for new stations, the result, the original target of 100 station will reduce to 85 stations, then the next 25 new stations will be funded, then no more will be funded as ongoing costs keep the tally to 75 stations.
IIRR, Toyota and maybe Honda are providing some operating subsidies for a few years (until around 2020 IIRC, when they anticipate they will no longer be needed), separate from the loans they made to build the stations. The links I've provided upthread describe the progression and cost curves. See the "Hydrogen Transition" paper, pg. 19 et. seq.
 
Press release from Linde:

Linde hydrogen fueling station open for business in West Sacramento

Murray Hill & New Providence, New Jersey, U.S., August 3, 2015 – Owners of hydrogen fueled cars can now pull up to the Linde hydrogen pump at the Ramos Oil Company station in West Sacramento and fill their tanks just like any other vehicle. The station, equipped with state-of-the-art technology developed by Linde North America Inc, has been designated as officially open by all relevant stakeholders and authorities.

Linde North America Inc., a member of The Linde Group is a major producer of hydrogen and covers the entire technology spectrum required to successfully use hydrogen as a transportation fuel.

“This is truly a significant milestone in the advancement of hydrogen as an alternate fuel for cars,” said Mike Beckman, vice president of Hydrogen Fueling-Linde North America, Inc. “A hydrogen fueling station is very different from the usual gasoline and diesel fueling operations, requiring highly sophisticated equipment and special handing. Having been certified officially open, according to the new criteria, the station is the first in California and, in fact the U.S., to receive this designation. But it didn’t come easy.”

Beckman points out that the open designation comes only after a series of rigorous criteria have been met, including receipt of permits from all relevant authorities having jurisdiction, approval by the Department of Weights and Measures of the sale of hydrogen by the kilogram, and letters from at least two hydrogen fuel cell vehicle manufacturers confirming the station meets fueling protocols and can be used to fuel their line of cars.

Tyson Eckerle, ZEV Infrastructure Project Manager-Office of Governor Jerry Brown, Business and Economic Development, said, “Linde’s West Sacramento station opens the door to a truly retail hydrogen fueling experience, which is a huge deal for California’s budding retail hydrogen station network. Congratulations to the Linde team for exemplary stakeholder collaboration and leadership.”

Kent Ramos, president of Ramos Oil Company, said he is “very impressed with the exciting technology Linde brought to us. We have been serving the Sacramento Valley market with a variety of fuels for over 60 years. Hydrogen’s zero emissions technology fits perfectly into our multi-fuel platform concept and I believe will prove that hydrogen has a place in the transportation fuel mix.” Ramos Oil, one of the largest Hispanic-owned companies in the U.S., is one of the first petroleum retailers in California to embrace clean fuels. In addition to conventional fuels, the company offers bio-diesel, ethanol-85, methanol and now hydrogen. The company also uses solar panels to power the entire facility.

At the heart of the hydrogen fueling system is the Linde IC 90 ionic compressor -- the next generation of hydrogen compression technology which enables higher throughput and enhanced back to back fueling. “With this compressor, Linde has made a valuable contribution to the ongoing enhancement of today's hydrogen fueling infrastructure,” said Beckman. For more information on Linde’s IC 90 ionic compressor see: http://www.lindeus.com/en/innovations/hydrogen_energy/fuelling_technologies/ionic_compressor.html.

Nitin Natesan, Business Development manager for Linde Hydrogen Fueling, said, “The Ramos high-throughput retail station is a very significant step forward in the commercialization of hydrogen-fueled cars. Drivers can fill up with hydrogen using a credit card as with any other vehicle. The station is also equipped with a video screen should the driver need filling instructions.”

While it is difficult to project how much business the new hydrogen fueling station will do in the Sacramento area in the next few years, conservative industry estimates call for over 34,000 hydrogen powered cars to be on the road in California by 2021, with a significant growth curve from there.
Found some specs of the IC 90. A single unit can apparently output 33.6 kg/hour (see http://www.a3ps.at/site/sites/default/files/conferences/2014/papers/01_linde_mayer.pdf) Assuming an average fill is 4.5 kg (based on Mirai capacity of 5.0 kg and Tucson cap. of 5.64 kg. = 5.32 kg avg, minus reserve), that works out to a throughput of 8 cars/hour, or one every 7.47 minutes. The link above indicates that the standard rack is designed to hold two units to double the throughput, although I doubt that will be needed initially. Some more details on how the ionic compressor differs from a standard one here (company blurb): http://www.lindeus.com/en/innovations/hydrogen_energy/fuelling_technologies/ionic_compressor.html
 
GRA said:
Press release from Linde:

Murray Hill & New Providence, New Jersey, U.S., August 3, 2015 – Owners of hydrogen fueled cars can now pull up to the Linde hydrogen pump at the Ramos Oil Company station in West Sacramento and fill their tanks just like any other vehicle. The station, equipped with state-of-the-art technology developed by Linde North America Inc, has been designated as officially open by all relevant stakeholders and authorities.

Kent Ramos, president of Ramos Oil Company, said he is “very impressed with the exciting technology Linde brought to us. We have been serving the Sacramento Valley market with a variety of fuels for over 60 years. Hydrogen’s zero emissions technology fits perfectly into our multi-fuel platform concept and I believe will prove that hydrogen has a place in the transportation fuel mix.”
An oil company championing hydrogen? Who would have thought? ;)
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
How much of FCV development is funded by the oil industry? An industry incentive for OEMs.
No idea, but I know that the first commercial lithium batteries were made by a division of Exxon. These were primary batteries, i.e. non-rechargeable, and were typically used in watches and clocks.

They sold it off in the late '80s or early '90s when they and the other energy companies were hemorrhaging cash (people forget what happened to the oil and gas companies when prices dropped then, although we're seeing something like it again), because they were told by the head of the division that it was only going to be about a $50 million a year business (at the time), and they wanted to concentrate on those divisions that would generate at least $1 billion/year in business. Just wasn't worth their time. See Seth Fletcher's book "Bottled Lightning" for the details.

The renewable H2 RFS in California (at least) will continue to toughen beyond 33%, so ultimately there's no future in H2 for them unless they transition into renewables. Which may happen, but many of them have already BTDT - Shell was one of the first to get into PV, in the '70s IIRR, before getting out. In the early '90s I used to sell used (5-10 years old) Arco PV modules coming off a large utility-owned array that was being dismantled in the Carrizo Plain (Arco's solar division was sold to Siemens, whose new panels we also sold. They've since sold the division on), and BP Solar was big from about the mid-'90s to about the mid-oughts IIRR, before getting out of the business. I don't remember if this last was due to Chinese competition, needing to raise cash to pay Deepwater Horizon fines, or what. So, whether any of them see enough profit to make it worth their while to get back in, I don't know.
 
RegGuheert said:
Stoaty said:
An oil company championing hydrogen? Who would have thought? ;)
Hey, oil companies like government handouts AT LEAST as much as the next guy! Don't you think they deserve it? ;)
Ramos Oil, one of the largest Hispanic-owned companies in the U.S., is one of the first petroleum retailers in California to embrace clean fuels. In addition to conventional fuels, the company offers bio-diesel, ethanol-85, methanol and now hydrogen. The company also uses solar panels to power the entire facility.
Does anyone actually bother to read the posts in their entirety? BTW, Ramos Oil doesn't appear to be an oil producer, they're a fuel distributor/supplier to fleets etc. See their website: http://www.ramosoil.com/ or Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapid=4250067

The idea that Ramos is part of the Big Oil cabal is pretty amusing.
 
GRA said:
Does anyone actually bother to read the posts in their entirety? BTW, Ramos Oil doesn't appear to be an oil producer, they're a fuel distributor/supplier to fleets etc.
No one said they were an oil producer.
GRA said:
The idea that Ramos is part of the Big Oil cabal is pretty amusing.
It is. Your idea?

The fact is that oil distributors are just as threatened by the possibility of moving to BEVs as are the producers. Why not hedge their bets with government handouts?
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
Does anyone actually bother to read the posts in their entirety? BTW, Ramos Oil doesn't appear to be an oil producer, they're a fuel distributor/supplier to fleets etc.
No one said they were an oil producer.
Reg, that tends to be what people mean when they talk about an "Oil company", one whose main business is production and refining.

RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
The idea that Ramos is part of the Big Oil cabal is pretty amusing.
It is. Your idea?The fact is that oil distributors are just as threatened by the possibility of moving to BEVs as are the producers. Why not hedge their bets with government handouts?
If they're there, I'm sure they'll take it, just like everyone who put PV modules on their house did, or who took advantage of a government or utility program to upgrade their insulation, windows, appliances etc., or who took the government handouts to buy or lease an HEV/BEV/PHEV/FCV.
 
GRA said:
If they're there,...
They are there. Almost certainly this would not be happening without them.

Still it seems doubtful that they will make money on this venture. They'll likely be back to the trough for more later.
 
I was just thinking that Toyota and other OEMs might not be risking much of their own money on FCVs if they're getting good incentives from Oil Producers. But if the oil industry transitions to renewables, that would be great. Low chance of that for the near future I think.
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
But if the oil industry transitions to renewables, that would be great.
Sure, but that doesn't appear to be their game plan. Instead, they call the oil "hydrogen" and collect additional revenues from the taxpayer for doing just that.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
If they're there,...
They are there. Almost certainly this would not be happening without them.

Still it seems doubtful that they will make money on this venture. They'll likely be back to the trough for more later.
No one is expecting to make money on H2 sales for FCVs for several years, which is why Toyota et al are subsidizing operating costs. "The Hydrogen Transition" calculates year 7 to 9 as most probable, but Toyota thinks it may be possible to end the subsidies as early as 2020, if not likely. Any of the above would beat Tesla (est. 2003) to profitability, as Elon forecast they may not make it before 2020.
 
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