Hybrids don't make financial sense

[theaveng]

In my book calling someone a "troll" is synonymous with "asshole" Neither of these insults should be used in polite conversation (unless you're a teen or college kid)

Another example: It makes a LOT more sense to buy a Prius C (or insight) for $19,000 than a standard Prius for $25,000. You save $6000 dollars upfront, and you'd have to drive the standard prius close to 1 million miles to recapture that premium (over the C).

 

[goaliepride]

In my book calling someone a "troll" is synonymous with "asshole" Neither of these insults should be used in polite conversation (unless you're a teen or college kid)

In my eyes you misunderstand troll. Troll is someone leading you into an asinine debate that isn't a debate. It isn't reasoned conversation about actual controversy, it's someone wanting to see how many angry replies they can incite.

 

[thankyouOB]

In my book calling someone a "troll" is synonymous with "asshole"

wow, never thought of that. You could be right, for once.

 

[GreenPowerDP]

Sorry I am confused, does calling another person a troll invalidate the conversation and the points I am making? Why can't we honestly discuss the pros (many) and cons (few) of EVs?

Feel free to discuss pros and cons, but I just want to point out that "Trolling" on a user group forum like this, means that the person is trying to provoke an argument, or at least, doesn't intend to "honestly" discuss pros and cons.

Here is a quick definition of trolls and trolling: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false

 

[pkulak]

30mpg? These base econo cars get 38-45 mpg. If I redo your calculation I come-up with over 1 million miles I would have to drive a Prius to match the $13,000 savings of a Mitsubishi Mirage.

Maybe if you never take the car off the freeway. The dirty little secret with those shitty econo boxes is the city mileage, which is generally terrible. Take the Chevy Cruze Eco, the highway mileage king right now, non-hybrid. It gets 42! on the freeway! And that's the number you'll see in every ad, which makes you think it's just a notch below the Prius at 50. But it gets 28 in the city. So, you better not drive it off the highway much, or you'll be seeing about half the mileage you'd get from a Prius.

And you should be happy I ran with your $10000 number. The Prius MSRP is 24,200. The comparable trim Corolla (with cruise control and all the other things that the Prius includes on the "Two" model) costs $18,300. That's $5900. And that's comparing it to a compact car. The Prius is a midsize, so you should probably compare it to the Camry, which starts at $22,500. But I'll be nice, and assume that the less space available in the Corolla doesn't matter.

So, let's do it again, with combined 35 for the Cruze and 51 for the Prius with a $5900 break even. That's still about 180000 miles. I'm pretty sure Priuses last about twice that long, at least. And the Prius is much larger than the Cruze.

Now, if you spend 90+% of your driving on the freeway, then it doesn't add up. You get over 300000 miles. Though, with that much freeway driving, that car may make it to a million miles, so it probably still makes sense.

 

[qwk]

30mpg? These base econo cars get 38-45 mpg. If I redo your calculation I come-up with over 1 million miles I would have to drive a Prius to match the $13,000 savings of a Mitsubishi Mirage.

I will have to agree with you here. Money wise, if you are looking for the cheapest operating cost, a hybrid is not it, but an EV is.

Not hardly. $28,000 for the cheapest EV (Leaf) will have fuel savings, but that will never be as cheap as buying a $12,000 Nissan Versa (or $13,000 Spark, Mirage). $28k + electricity >>> $12k + gasoline
.

Anyone can make numbers up to make their case. For high mileage drivers, an EV will come out way ahead in the lifetime of the vehicles(unless the electricity cost is sky high),which is around 200,000 miles. You have to compare like vehicles of course.

 

[theaveng]

Another example: A colleague bought a Prius G2 for a little over $26,000 and drove it 180,000 miles w/ 48 mpg lifetime average. He said he was very happy because he saved a "lot" of money.

I did some quick math versus an economic, base model car (Versa, Mirage, Fiesta, Fit, etc) that gets 38 to 45 mpg depending on brand.

Assuming 38mpg, a nonybrid base model would have cost $3200 more in gasoline BUT its initial cost is only $12-16,000, so overall the nonhybrid is cheaper. My colleague should have gone with the lower pricetag if he wanted to save money (his stated goal)
.

 

[TomT]

Except that the C is an absolutely miserable vehicle... CR, among others, hated it. If ALL one cares about is absolute lowest price and nothing else, maybe it make sense, but I also prefer to drive a real car with real amenities...

It makes a LOT more sense to buy a Prius C (or insight) for $19,000 than a standard Prius for $25,000.

 

[theaveng]

The Prius MSRP is 24,200. The comparable trim Corolla (with cruise control and all the other things that the Prius includes on the "Two" model) costs $18,300.

$26,500 with destination fee and taxes. (shrug) Whatever. I tend to be opposed to luxury when it's not necessary. If someone said to me, "I will strip your Prius of the cruise control, navigation unit, etc and give you $10,000 refund in return," I'd gladly take the money. Wouldn't you? ..... I love saving cash. Which is why I have a $15,000 Ford Fiesta three cylinder in my sights. It has very few luxuries but it does save me a big wad of cash (that I can grow via investments, 401K, etc).

BTW you keep bringing-up the city figure, but the EPA's combined rating assumes 60% city miles and 40% highway miles, which is nowhere near accurate for most citizens' miles. I estimate the average Americans' car is only 10% city miles.

ASIDE:
I avoid cities with a passion. Thomas Jefferson (founder of the Democrat party) had it correct when he described them as a "dungheap of humanity". I think they are claustrophobic and unnatural with tons of concrete and very little natural environment (trees, animals, greenspace).

 

[jsongster]

And here I figured we'd be chatting about how our evs are better than hybrids... not that I dont love hybrids... our prius has been a joy... but...

The simplicity of the leaf ev system is awesome... it and the tesla skateboard are great advances in tech that was mostly dormant (or suppressed by greedy creeps) since the early 1900s. The simplicity of the designs is significant. The assembly costs arre going down. The battery costs are going down. Could be, if enough Leafs and Teslas sell, that an aftermarket competition over battery tech will appear... seeing a market for selling new battery tech to all those used cars sellers and resellers.

In a few years when these platforms hit true mass production, Nissan and Tesla will have lead the auto industry out of the clouds of their own pollution. This thing is about way more than money.

Imagine how the Chinese will feel if they get past the oil age... and hopefully with wind and solar the coal age as well. Rwmember fresh air.

 

[adric22]

These arguments have never made any sense to me. One important factor comes to mind. They love to brag about 40 mpg EPA figures on non-hybrids like the Cruze. But how often are people really driving "on the highway?" If we're talking about your commute to work, forget it. You may be "on a highway" but you aren't going to get 40 mpg. You're probably going to get more like 25-30 mpg during your daily routine, which is what matters the most. A hybrid like the Prius really will deliver 50 mpg in city driving.

But a more important issue always comes to mind. People throw out the money figure and try to compare a Prius to a $14,000 car. But I can't think of any $14,000 car I'd want to drive. If saving money is the only goal, you shouldn't be buying a new car at all. You should be looking for an older used car in the $4,000 range that gets around 25 to 30 mpg like a Honda civic. So obviously money is not the only issue.

 

[qwk]

..... I love saving cash. Which is why I have a $15,000 Ford Fiesta three cylinder in my sights. It has very few luxuries but it does save me a big wad of cash (that I can grow via investments, 401K, etc).

The problem with this theory, is that while you might save cash to stash somewhere, if you ever get into an accident, that $15000 Fiesta may now be your coffin, so that cash you though you saved will now do you no good.

 

[Stoaty]

The problem with this theory, is that while you might save cash to stash somewhere, if you ever get into an accident, that $15000 Fiesta may now be your coffin, so that cash you though you saved will now do you no good.

Not true... the cash can be used to pay for funeral costs.

 

[theaveng]

Fiesta has good crash test ratings. No reason why it would be any more likely to kill me than a Leaf. (The Leaf may cost 15,000 more but it's not any safer.)