Help...gas compared to electric should I purchase?

[gmarcucio]

I'm trying to justify purchasing a pure electric vehicle mainly a Leaf. I already have a Chevrolet Volt and a Chev Silverado so that satisfies any long trip I might need to take. I'm trying to justify it by thinking if I purchase (finance) the leaf the money I would normally spend on gas I could put towrds the monthly payments on the Leaf. My Volt I hardly ever purchase gas so I'm not figuring any gas for the Volt but last year I spent $2,900 in gas for my truck. If I leave my truck sit and only use it when I need it as a truck I wouldn't be putting gas in it and that gas money could go towrds the payment on the Leaf. By the time I put insurance on the leaf which will be $580 per year and my cost of electric to charge the leaf I'm pretty sure I won't be saving anything and even spending more than just putting the gas in the truck. However if I purchase the Leaf rather than Lease it I will be building up equity in a vehicle so that has to count for something. I'm having a hard time figuring this all out. I guess the information I need to know is how much would I spend in electric per year to charge the Leaf compared to the $2,900 in gas I spent (average in my area is $3.80 per gallon). I think on my Volt it costs about $1.50 a full charge that will take me 42 miles but I don't know what they figure for the Leaf?
Can anyone help me out with this??? I would be looking at the lowest cost Leaf "S" model.

 

[ERG4ALL]

We leased a 2011 model and for over two years we have had a trouble free vehicle. We put on just a little less than 1,000 miles per month and figure that with no gas, no oil changes, no oil filter changes, no fuel filter changes, no tune ups and lower registration fees that we are saving about $200 per month. We charge at night during the winter at 6 cents per kWh and during the summer we are at our summer home that is powered by solar panels so that is a sunk cost with nothing out-of-pocket. That's our experience, hope it helps.

 

[garsh]

I've long since forgotten some of the assumptions I was using in my calculations, but I determined that I went from spending $2000/yr in gas for my commute to $400/yr in electricity (about 1/5th). That was for a car that averaged about 27mpg on the commute.
HTH

 

[abasile]

Where do you live? In a hot climate, the LEAF's battery pack is likely to degrade quickly. In Seattle or Boston, not so much. That would affect any purchase vs. lease decision.

If all you want to do is save gas money, you're likely better off buying an older, used Prius, Civic, or other car with much better mileage than your truck. From a purely financial standpoint, that probably is the best approach and is what I would recommend to someone for whom getting out of debt is a priority.

But if you want to enjoy the smooth acceleration and quietness of an electric drivetrain, in a new vehicle, and help lessen our country's dependence on oil, then you probably won't regret spending a bit more on a LEAF than your current gasoline bill.

 

[cwerdna]

Seconding the request for your location: Can you update your location info via User Control Panel (near top) > Profile (left side)? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

Your post is pretty vague. Why you are trying to get a 3rd vehicle? What do you mean by "I think on my Volt it costs about $1.50 a full charge"? Have you actually done the calculations based on your per kwh rates at your currently unknown to us utility and actual power drawn from the wall? AFAIK, the Leaf is a more efficient EV than the Volt running as an EV.

We can't give you a cost to charge w/o knowing your rate per kwh. That will also depend on whether you're charging at 120 or 240 volts. Charging efficiency is worse at 120 volts. Your range will vary depending on speeds, heater/AC usage and battery condition, just like on your Volt. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=101293" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can give you an idea of how much a difference the speed makes. In Tony's range test of a '13 Leaf S (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11682" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false, he found one could achieve ~81 miles at 100 kmh (indicated 65 mph on the speedo) w/a new battery and tires. (Range should improve a little as the tires wear out but that's counterbalanced by the battery degrading.)

How long are your typical commutes in terms of distance and how much city and highway? Do you really need the truck or Volt at all? What if you ditch one or both? What if you just rent a truck when one is needed?

As mentioned, there's the issue of early battery degradation in hot climates. I would NOT buy a Leaf in a hot climate (e.g. Phoenix).

As for purchasing and "building up equity", well, you're still putting money in a depreciating asset and when you sell, you'll obviously discover that the vehicle will have lost a significant amount of value. How many miles/year would you plan on putting on the Leaf?

If all you want to do is save gas money, you're likely better off buying an older, used Prius, Civic, or other car with much better mileage than your truck. From a purely financial standpoint, that probably is the best approach and is what I would recommend to someone for whom getting out of debt is a priority.

But if you want to enjoy the smooth acceleration and quietness of an electric drivetrain, in a new vehicle, and help lessen our country's dependence on oil, then you probably won't regret spending a bit more on a LEAF than your current gasoline bill.

Agreed completely w/both points.

$2900 in gas, assuming $3.80/gal average == 763 gallons of gasoline. Assuming one only got 44 mpg in a Prius (that's what CR rates it in overall mileage per http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/02/the-most-fuel-efficient-cars/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false, that would be enough to run a Prius for ~33.5K miles... 44 mpg in a Gen 3 (2010+) Prius is either one driven not very well or on lots of short trips...

 

[gmarcucio]

I'm sorry I just updated my profile to include my location. I live in Hagaman NY which is located in upstate NY. To answer some of the questions: I just sold a 2008 Corvette that I purchased new and had for 5 years. So I had 3 vehicles all along just didn't drive the Vette in the winter. I pretty much need the truck because I heat with wood so I need to haul the wood with the truck and my wife needs it for the winter driving when the roads are bad. She takes care of her 91 year old mother and the roads are bad in the area where she lives. So I need the truck for those 2 reasons. I have always had a facination for electric vehicles and now that they have become available is one reason I purchased the Volt. The Volt covers most of my driving on electric (11,000 miles on the car and 10,000 are EV miles) but there are those times where I need an adtional 10 or 15 miles of EV range. Owning the Volt for a year now I have become pretty well accustomed to driving to get the max EV range. I like the fact of having a pure EV. I am currently paying 15.9¢/kWh. I have a 220 volt charge station at my home. I guess I just want the pure EV but was trying to justify it but not really sure how to do the math. I was trying to offset the $2,900 I spent in gas for the truck last year and see how much I would have saved it was electric I was paying for. I know it's not going to be a wash... but I wouldn't mind spending a little money every month for the leaf to have the satisfaction of drvinig it. I was just trying to get some idea how much it was actually costing me to drive it. Another way to look at it is my Leaf will be my new (toy) Corvette.

 

[davewill]

OK, here's the numbers. Assuming you get 4 miles per kWh(mpk) (quite doable if you refrain from exceeding 65 on the freeway, also makes the math easier) and you drive 12000 miles per year, you're going to use about 3000kWh of electricity per year just driving. Now the charger has about a 10% overhead (actually 12-13% but keep it simple), so let's bump that up to 3300kWh. Assuming you paid $0.10 per kWh, that would cost you $330 for electricity.

Now just plug in your real miles estimate, and actual electric rate. If you think you'll be a bit of a lead foot, you can use 3.5mpk. If you will be doing all your driving on country roads at 45 mph, you can bump it up to 4.5mpk.

 

[smkettner]

How many drivers in the house? If the truck becomes an extra vehicle, the insurance should drop significantly.

 

[SuperBlack]

Let me ask you this - do you need the Volt if you get a Leaf? It sounds like you take mostly short trips in the Volt if you did 90% of your miles in EV.

Since you have the truck for longer trips and bad weather, would the Leaf meet the rest of your needs?

IMHO, the pure EV beats the hybrid if you have another car that does what the pure EV can't. I would only by a plug-in hybrid if it was going to be our only car.

 

[gmarcucio]

OK, here's the numbers. Assuming you get 4 miles per kWh(mpk) (quite doable if you refrain from exceeding 65 on the freeway, also makes the math easier) and you drive 12000 miles per year, you're going to use about 3000kWh of electricity per month just driving. Now the charger has about a 10% overhead (actually 12-13% but keep it simple), so let's bump that up to 3300kWh. Assuming you paid $0.10 per kWh, that would cost you $330 for electricity.

Now just plug in your real miles estimate, and actual electric rate. If you think you'll be a bit of a lead foot, you can use 3.5mpk. If you will be doing all your driving on country roads at 45 mph, you can bump it up to 4.5mpk.

Here is what it would cost me to drive Nissan Leaf for 12,000 miles in one year Vs putting gas in my truck:
Cost of lease @ $190 per month = $2,280.00
$1,200 up front at signing divided by 2 = $ 600.00
$600 for insurance for 1 year = $ 600.00
Electricity to drive leaf for year = $ 330.00
_________
Total to drive Leaf a year $ 3,810.00


Gas to drive truck last year: $2,900.00

Difference in price $910.00

So...if I divide the $910 by 12 months it will cost me $75.83 per mnoth to lease, insure, and purchase electricy owning the leaf rather than putting the gas in my truck. Is this close to being correct?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Mr gmarcucio, your calculations point out one thing I see as an inhibitor to EV adoption (particularly short range EVs like the Leaf): the combined insurance cost of the EV and the old vehicle kept for occasions it's needed. Where I live there's so much fraud insurance cost far exceeds fuel even driving modest vehicles with a perfect record. If not for that, given the current lease rates we'd have two Leafs.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Here is what it would cost me to drive Nissan Leaf for 12,000 miles in one year Vs putting gas in my truck:
Cost of lease @ $190 per month = $2,280.00
$1,200 up front at signing divided by 2 = $ 600.00
$600 for insurance for 1 year = $ 600.00
Electricity to drive leaf for year = $ 330.00
_________
Total to drive Leaf a year $ 3,810.00


Gas to drive truck last year: $2,900.00

Difference in price $910.00

So...if I divide the $910 by 12 months it will cost me $75.83 per mnoth to lease, insure, and purchase electricy owning the leaf rather than putting the gas in my truck. Is this close to being correct?

Close. But you did say that you or your wife will be driving the truck some of the time, so you will pay something in gas for it.

The least expensive thing to do would be to put as many miles on your Volt as possible. But if you drove the truck that much, I presume that both you and your wife each need a vehicle most days, right? So you could make the case for the leased LEAF pretty well, although you would be paying some extra money for the EV fun.

 

[davewill]

So...if I divide the $910 by 12 months it will cost me $75.83 per mnoth to lease, insure, and purchase electricy owning the leaf rather than putting the gas in my truck. Is this close to being correct?

Pretty close. That electricity figure could change by quite a bit depending on your electric rate (even go to zero if you have wind or solar) but, as you can see, it's not really the major factor here. Also take a look at the $1,200 upfront. It may include your first lease payment.

But those are quibbles. You've got it close enough for your purposes, I think.

 

[Perdita]

My understanding of the OP and the thread so far is that he wants to justify a pure EV. If selling the truck and just having 2 vehicles (and thus actually saving money) is a non-starter, then ANY 3rd vehicle is going to be a net loss. Between Purchase/Lease, insurance and state tag/license plate fee -- it's going to be more expensive to get any 3rd car (or even 2nd car if you only had the one).

The REAL question is: How much are you willing to spend for a 3rd vehicle? run the numbers for pretty much any other car and the numbers will be most likely worse. If the crux is that you want to drive an pure EV more, how much are you willing to pay for the privilege.

Are you willing to part with the truck? That AFAIK is the only way to reduce your automotive cost enough to use savings as a justification.


I've run the numbers for myself. I can't justify it at this time, but its getting close. I actually went to my car insurance company to get quotes (and a couple others). I'm one of the original early adopters of the 2001 US Prius (Ordered Sep2000/Born Dec2000/Delivered Feb2001), before ANY federal rebates were available. FYI it's Electric Green Mica -- an actual green "green" car, who would have thunk it. :lol:

I spend about $1200 a year on gas, just under $1000 on insurance, and about $85 on Licensing.

If I ADD a Leaf, my fuel cost (including the Prius) drops by about half (maybe a little more), but that would immediately bump my insurance up $1200 to $2200/yr, and an additional $85 for licensing. Net cost: $700/yr before adding the cost of the Leaf.

If I replace my car with a 2013 Leaf, my fuel cost (electricity) drops by the same half to about $550/yr, and my insurance would go up $500-$600/yr. There goes any savings, before you add the cost of the car. Only savings would be the reduced cost of maintenance. On the plus side, a NEW pure EV, with current generation electronics. (Little things like BT and an AUX jack.)

If I replace my car with a 2013 Prius, my fuel cost drops by about $100/yr, and my insurance would only go up about $200/yr. Maintenance would stay about the same. Net cost: $100/yr before adding the cost of the car. On the plus side, a NEW car, w/ an actual stored spare tire and current gen electronics.

In my case the main difference would be how much I want to spend on a car, and do I really want a new car. Either case the only real cost is the car itself. In my case, I would like an EV to go 100 freeway miles on a single charge as I occasionally visit my brother who lives exactly 101 miles away by Alligator Alley -- on which there are exactly 0 charging stations and surrounded by well alligators (maybe the 2nd gen 2016 Leaf will get there). And the 3rd gen Prius is well blah, not enough improvement to justify upgrading (maybe the 4th gen 2015). Also neither is available in green.

I hope my example helps you.

 

[gmarcucio]

Thanks for all the posts and your info!!! You really made me look at this in many different ways which is very helpful. I'm going to talk to the sales person today again. Thanks again.

 

[mathprofcarrie]

Here is a spreadsheet that I did. Feel free to make a copy and use it, modifying for your wn assumptions like electricity. I had 0 down so right now the leaf is a 3rd car, but I don't think I'll need to hold on to the other. I think the depreciation would be more than if I just needed to rent a car on occassion.
goo.gl/LLyVY

 

[jstack6]

I'm trying to justify it by thinking


A bicycle is always a great investment on short trips. ! It's good for your health too!

 

[Ingineer]

What about keeping the Truck, selling the Volt, then getting the Leaf? Seems like the Volt is largely redundant and will just sit unused most of the time if you get a LEAF. Since you have a truck already, that could be your backup in the event there is a trip the LEAF just can't make.

If you have to have a 3rd car, sell the Volt, then get a more efficient small car. You could get a small used car with similar mileage to the Volt, then insurance will likely be less.

-Phil

 

[Caracalover]

Have you looked at a Zero electric motorcycle? If that is an option, it will be the most fun and least expensive option.

I also think that you are one of the many people that bought a Volt, fearing the range issue. After a year you now realize the Leaf has enough range and you can dump the pump. Resale on the Volt is likely still quite high, and Nissan would likely take it on a trade if you opt to purchase a Leaf.

I also have a Silverado. Why I keep it is beyond me most days, but since it is in great condition and I use it a few times a year, I hold on to it. Since it is paid for, I am only losing out on the resale value and the yearly costs. I also want to take the Zero (DS) up to the mountains and take on the dirt someday, and it will hopefully see that as a use sometime later this year...

I love my Leaf, but I now do my commute on the Zero, and my wife takes the Leaf. With solar panels the cost is close to nil. There are months we don't buy gas at all.

I used to use the Siverado to commute, and the savings when I went to the Leaf was huge. About $210 a month.

One thing to check into is the tiered electric rates. The Leaf put me into the tier three range before we went solar, and that is where it starts to cost more. With a Volt and a Leaf being driven every day, it may be a cost not factored in.

The Leaf handles pretty good in the snow from what I hear, so your wife may be able to use it instead of the truck. Front wheel drive is nice.

 

[leaf3r]

I'm extremely surprised with the electricity prices shared by you guys. :shock:
I live in San Jose, CA and planning to buy/lease a leaf. However the electricity prices are almost $0.34 per kwh :roll: after a first hundred or two kwh usage ( going quickly from $0.15 to $0.34).
With my most conservative estimate, it would cost approx $180 a month to charge the leaf.
$0.34 * 24kwh * 22 days = $180/month (higher if i use it over weekends).

I dont have solar panels. and not sure how much cheaper it would be to switch to time of day billing model.