Going all the way with solar

[hill]

We built big enough to cover not only the Leaf, but a future plug in. And, in the mean time - the utility pays us a couple hundred for our surplus juice, per year. Nothing wrong with over building if you're planning for the future.

Actually there is a lot of wrong with overbuilding depending on your utility rate schedule. You must really have oversized your system for the utility to pay you a couple hundred extra for surplus juice.
PG&E will only pay 3 cents/kWh for surplus electricity.
Even if you are only getting $200/year, that means you have over 6500 kWh extra per year . That's huge.
How big of a system do you have ?

With PG&E's crazy TOU tiered rates you don't even need to meet 100% of your electricity demand to zero your bill. .........snip ..

you are presuming everyone can simply convert their electric day use to night time - but just like in life -it just isn't always that way.
For a multitude of reasons we got hosed on TOU (so Cal Edison - which btw ALSO only pay 2.9 cents for surplus). And yes ... we actually had OVER 6500kWh - using TIERED billing. For those who necessarily can't switch usage to off peak usage tiered can be a windfall. That's part of the reason SCE is pushing to do away with it.

 

[madbrain]

you are presuming everyone can simply convert their electric day use to night time - but just like in life -it just isn't always that way.

Regardless of when your usage happens, and whether you use the TOU rate or not, there is no good reason to have surplus, given how little the utilities are paying for excess electricity. It is essentially a gift to the utility.

For a multitude of reasons we got hosed on TOU (so Cal Edison - which btw ALSO only pay 2.9 cents for surplus). And yes ... we actually had OVER 6500kWh - using TIERED billing. For those who necessarily can't switch usage to off peak usage tiered can be a windfall. That's part of the reason SCE is pushing to do away with it.

Having an annual 6500 kWh surplus means you get a whole $188.50 a year .
That's hardly a windfall if you compare that to the cost of panels needed to produce that surplus.
It would take at least a $10000 system to produce those extra 6500 kWh, so that's a 53 year payback. The panels are not expected to last that long. So you just bought panels that give almost free electricity to PG&E, essentially.
It really makes no sense to oversize your system that much.
You should find some use that makes sense for you for those extra kWh instead of letting them go that cheap. Maybe a second EV or PHEV.
Or if you have them, replace gas appliances over time with electric appliances, like gas water heater, gas water heater, gas oven, gas cooktop (replace with induction cooktop). But of course only replace them when they die, otherwise it makes no sense.

 

[hill]

Regardless of when your usage happens, and whether you use the TOU rate or not, there is no good reason to have surplus, given how little the utilities are paying for excess electricity. It is essentially a gift to the utility.

For a multitude of reasons we got hosed on TOU (so Cal Edison - which btw ALSO only pay 2.9 cents for surplus). And yes ... we actually had OVER 6500kWh - using TIERED billing. For those who necessarily can't switch usage to off peak usage tiered can be a windfall. That's part of the reason SCE is pushing to do away with it.

Having an annual 6500 kWh surplus means you get a whole $188.50 a year .
That's hardly a windfall if you compare that to the cost of panels needed to produce that surplus.
It would take at least a $10000 system to produce those extra 6500 kWh, so that's a 53 year payback. The panels are not expected to last that long. So you just bought panels that give almost free electricity to PG&E, essentially.
It really makes no sense to oversize your system that much. . . . . . . . . . . snip

If you'd read my 1st post - this whole tangent of how wastefull and 'never a good reason' side bar most likely would have never risen its ugly head . . . .

" . . . . Even back in 2007 - 2009 our electric bill averaged $225. It's all relative. Got a $25 electric bill? Then you got a teeny life style, with teeny living space. Huge bill? Then the big system will affect your wallet accordingly. We, just like Phil - put up a system big enough to cover all our electric expenses ... including our Leaf, which didn't come until over a year after our PV. We built big enough to cover not only the Leaf, but a future plug in. (emphasis mine) And, in the mean time - the utility pays us a couple hundred for our surplus juice, per year. Nothing wrong with over building if you're planning for the future.

Nothing wrong in deed even if we DIDN'T have specific uses for our 6900kWh surplus, because if everyone's issue was simply making it pencil out, we'd never progress onto the next step. Solar and wind wouldn't pencil out hardly ever, when the early adapters were putting it up. Now days, if it weren't for subsidies to the oilies, most renewable power would be on par with fossil fuels ... because thankfully some looked beyond whether it pencils out today.
how many articles were written about the prius genII - how it simply did not pencil out. Art Spinella wrote an article how the Hummer was more economical than the prius. He 'prooved' to the world that it simply didn't pencil out to drive a Prius. Now here we are 8 years later and it is the biggest seller in California for 2012.
See, 'pencil out' has many facets of which most don't get factored in, when it comes to non-renewables.
In reality, do you offset that 3 cents per kilowatt hour / 50yr 'payback'with;
- respiratory / health hospital costs
- trillion dollar foreign war / al queda flight training sponsorship
- burdensome growing national debt / ongoing trade deficit
- etc etc
iow, there are many many ways to define 'pay back'.
As for our 'wasted surplus' - 1 of the nicest things about oversizing our system was that on a tiered billibg system, SCE has to credit us for tier 4 electricity, (woo hoo! over 35cents) during high production months. But for over production, we would never get that kind of credit. Thus, our 7.1AC kW rated system, commissioned 2009, will have paid for itself by the end of next year ... in part because of generous federal and state subsidies (like oil companies get) and in part because we no longer have two gasoline burners' $4/gallon 20mpg expense.
Instead - we'll make our home and transportation fuel - at home, with u.s. made electrons.
So yea, you can spin a $200 surplus as far to the left or right - however one wants.

 

[madbrain]

Nothing wrong in deed even if we DIDN'T have specific uses for our 6900kWh surplus, because if everyone's issue was simply making it pencil out, we'd never progress onto the next step. Solar and wind wouldn't pencil out hardly ever, when the early adapters were putting it up. Now days, if it weren't for subsidies to the oilies, most renewable power would be on par with fossil fuels ... because thankfully some looked beyond whether it pencils out today.

Those are good point, but unfortunately the policymakers are way behind on this one as they don't provide any financial incentives to oversize the system.

how many articles were written about the prius genII - how it simply did not pencil out. Art Spinella wrote an article how the Hummer was more economical than the prius. He 'prooved' to the world that it simply didn't pencil out to drive a Prius. Now here we are 8 years later and it is the biggest seller in California for 2012.

You will get no argument from me on the Prius. I bought a Prius in 2001 and that was my first car. Until I got the Leaf I had only driven Priii.

See, 'pencil out' has many facets of which most don't get factored in, when it comes to non-renewables.
In reality, do you offset that 3 cents per kilowatt hour / 50yr 'payback'with;
- respiratory / health hospital costs
- trillion dollar foreign war / al queda flight training sponsorship
- burdensome growing national debt / ongoing trade deficit
- etc etc
iow, there are many many ways to define 'pay back'.

Certainly true, but I don't believe your oversizing on an individual level will offset those other factors. Most people cannot afford to oversize. Today solar remains a miserable 0.1% of electricity production, sadly.

As for our 'wasted surplus' - 1 of the nicest things about oversizing our system was that on a tiered billibg system, SCE has to credit us for tier 4 electricity, (woo hoo! over 35cents) during high production months.

Yes, I know about the tiered system, we have it on PG&E as well. However, at the end of the year, if there is a surplus of dollars based on those high rates, at true up time, the balance is zero'ed out. So this really does not matter very much. I would assume it's the same on SCE.

The only net credit that won't get zeroe'ed which you can get is for actual surprlus energy, at the 3 cents/kWh.

But for over production, we would never get that kind of credit.

Again, all those credits get zero'ed, your only positive credit is based on you being a net energy producer at 3 cents/kWh, and that's not a deal.

Thus, our 7.1AC kW rated system, commissioned 2009, will have paid for itself by the end of next year ... in part because of generous federal and state subsidies (like oil companies get) and in part because we no longer have two gasoline burners' $4/gallon 20mpg expense.
Instead - we'll make our home and transportation fuel - at home, with u.s. made electrons.
So yea, you can spin a $200 surplus as far to the left or right - however one wants.

Not sure how you calculated that payoff, but that seems awfully quick especially if you are currently a net energy producer.
Did you account for the cost of the EV or PHEV new cars in your payoff ?
You must have had very high state subsidies that made the system close to free. When I did my 6.58 kW system in 2010, the rebate was down to $0.35 per watt. For the 2.88 kW system I just added, only $0.20 per watt.
The CSI rebates are not supposed to be given on oversized system however, only on systems sized to cover your own energy use, but no more. You can oversize your system, but then you will only get the 30% federal tax credit on the oversize portion. So, that would extend your payoff.

 

[hill]

Yes, the CSI amount continues to get smaller and smaller. It had dropped from $2.50/watt down to about $2/watt when our CA rebate was approved. That, and the 30% fed rebate brought our system's cost into the mid $20k range. We compute our payback using the money we'd of had to pay on our prior vehicles' (Ford Exploader & Range rover) fuel then calc'd mpg up to 20mpg's times the 2 vehicles 15k miles per year at $3.75 gallon ... PLUS, we'd have to earn 30% more than that fuel cost (deducting for fed/state income tax), just to have the money to pay for that gas (never mind oil & other ICE fuel maintenance) ... plus the fed/state tax money we don't have to earn to pay what was a 225.00 monthly average electric bill (2007-2009 monthly average) .... plus PUC grants about 5% utility increases per year, which we no longer incur. Those kinds of costs all legitimately offset PV.

You're right - incentives/rebates normally don't count for "over-sizing". We found though, that it's VERY easy to game the system. Knowing we were going PV in 2 years, we simply let our utility use "go wild" thus, our $225 monthly average over the prior 24 months. Once the install was under way ... BOOM - back to LED's - CFL's high efficiency washer dryer, fridge's etc etc. That's all we had to do, in order to assure our future plug-in's would not put us into the red any longer with SCE. Even with a 2nd plug-in, we'll not even have to pay the little monthly disability tax charges ... and maybe run a few extra holiday lights, to boot.

 

[QueenBee]

Thus, our 7.1AC kW rated system, commissioned 2009, will have paid for itself by the end of next year ... in part because of generous federal and state subsidies (like oil companies get) and in part because we no longer have two gasoline burners' $4/gallon 20mpg expense.
Instead - we'll make our home and transportation fuel - at home, with u.s. made electrons.
So yea, you can spin a $200 surplus as far to the left or right - however one wants.

Note that you can't say that installing solar saved you any money from not buying gas. Buying EV's saved you money by not buying gas. Installing solar saved you money by not buying electricity. The combination of solar+EV might have saved you money by keeping it in a lower usage tier/etc. though. For example the EV pushed you into the next tier and the solar brought you back down.

 

[madbrain]

hill,

You're right - incentives/rebates normally don't count for "over-sizing". We found though, that it's VERY easy to game the system. Knowing we were going PV in 2 years, we simply let our utility use "go wild" thus, our $225 monthly average over the prior 24 months. Once the install was under way ... BOOM - back to LED's - CFL's high efficiency washer dryer, fridge's etc etc. That's all we had to do, in order to assure our future plug-in's would not put us into the red any longer with SCE. Even with a 2nd plug-in, we'll not even have to pay the little monthly disability tax charges ... and maybe run a few extra holiday lights, to boot.

Sad that you caused all that extra unnecessary energy to be used just to get the subsidy.
It would be a loser's game to play today with the small $0.20/watt rebate.
Did you switch your appliances just to increase your energy usage ??

If you had just sized it properly and waited to add on to the system for your second plug-in, you would be paying much lower prices for the extra panels when needed, like I did with my addition recently. The rebate is lower but the gross costs are half the price, too. It is almost not worth doing all the paperwork for my addition now, it needs about 25 documents to get $460 back for my addition ...

 

[hill]

No - we junked our inefficient (and older) appliances after our system was sized. Oh ... I forgot one other "over-sized" benefit (though our system won't be over-sized, once our second vehicle's charging is added into the mix). By sizing for projected use - we captured more CA rebate funds. We almost built too early ... back when Fed funds were only something like $2,000 max, regardless how big your system was. We waited & waited & stalled & stalled from having our system completed ... signed off by the county ... and commissioned by SCE. Once the new Fed legislation was complete - BAM ... we're in there
One other cool thing is - our central air compressor is a dinosaur ... but ... it's still running. Even with a 2nd plugin - we can still back feed more than we use ... once we re-vamp our AC to a SEER 17ish type efficiency or higher. Oh ... one other last thing. The other good thing about surplus (even though it's a paltry 3¢/kWh payout) PV going back to the grid is that our grid is mortally wounded. Think how great it'd be if others could do their part to restore the strength of the grid via over sizing. After all ... PV does its best, during times of high grid demand. If 10's of thousands of folks could do the same over sizing - there'd likely be a whole lot less brown outs to face. IOW, giving back to the grid - is similar to donating one's time to a charity ... or a homeless shelter ... or teaching kids that fall behind in grammar school (of which I was one) ... or other 'worthy cause'. One can always find a good thing to be 'uneconomical' ... or 'doesn't pencil out' ... but that's ok sometimes.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

The other good thing about surplus (even though it's a paltry 3¢/kWh payout) PV going back to the grid is that our grid is mortally wounded. Think how great it'd be if others could do their part to restore the strength of the grid via over sizing. After all ... PV does its best, during times of high grid demand. If 10's of thousands of folks could do the same over sizing - there'd likely be a whole lot less brown outs to face. IOW, giving back to the grid - is similar to donating one's time to a charity ... or a homeless shelter ... or teaching kids that fall behind in grammar school (of which I was one) ... or other 'worthy cause'. One can always find a good thing to be 'uneconomical' ... or 'doesn't pencil out' ... but that's ok sometimes.

Hear hear! Even if you don't use that energy, someone will be! And it's still offsetting the need to burn more natural gas / coal / whatever is used in your area.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

Our new Leaf got us wondering if we could lower our carbon footprint, and so we decided to look into solar. We were very pleasantly surprised to find a number of lease options where we didn't have to pay anything at all and get to negate our electric bill including 15K miles/year charging at 3.5kW/mile. What I mean is it costs us zero dollars to get the system installed on the roof of our home, and we then pay the solar company what we would normally be paying to our electric utility company. In fact, the solar bill is cheaper by a few dollars each month and is guaranteed never to go up for the next 30 years. Our utility costs have gone up 12% each year for the last 10 years, I can't imagine what the rates will be in 30 years if we don't go solar now.

Talk about a windfall: 100% zero carbon footprint driving, 100% zero carbon footprint electricity in the house. This is a financial no-brainer. I find it hard to comprehend why more households aren't adopting this approach.

Anyone else gone all the way with solar?

I am seriously considering it, looking at the same deal as you basically. Out of pocket is $0, monthly cost about same as I pay for the same amount of electricity now, but no rate increase gauranteed for that portion.

I'm in the north east but my roof is quite large and is totally unobstructed, south-facing.

To be honest I'd already have pulled the trigger on it but I need a couple grand in possible roof repairs first (which CAN wait a lot longer--but not if I do solar) before I go with it.

My from-the-wall-cost of power, delivered and all that, is about $.105 kWh right now.

I go through an awful lot of electricity, even before the Leaf.

Over-sizing the system for most people won't be a consideration. Using my entire roof I'll only cover 60% because I guzzle that juice. A neighbor has a larger roof and has maxed it out, and is relatively conservative in electricity use, and isn't quite hitting 100% of his needs.

 

[hill]

............. snip
Over-sizing the system for most people won't be a consideration. Using my entire roof I'll only cover 60% because I guzzle that juice. A neighbor has a larger roof and has maxed it out, and is relatively conservative in electricity use, and isn't quite hitting 100% of his needs.

60% of usage - based on what level of efficiency?

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Our new Leaf got us wondering if we could lower our carbon footprint, and so we decided to look into solar. We were very pleasantly surprised to find a number of lease options where we didn't have to pay anything at all and get to negate our electric bill including 15K miles/year charging at 3.5kW/mile. What I mean is it costs us zero dollars to get the system installed on the roof of our home, and we then pay the solar company what we would normally be paying to our electric utility company. In fact, the solar bill is cheaper by a few dollars each month and is guaranteed never to go up for the next 30 years. Our utility costs have gone up 12% each year for the last 10 years, I can't imagine what the rates will be in 30 years if we don't go solar now.

Talk about a windfall: 100% zero carbon footprint driving, 100% zero carbon footprint electricity in the house. This is a financial no-brainer. I find it hard to comprehend why more households aren't adopting this approach.

Anyone else gone all the way with solar?

I am seriously considering it, looking at the same deal as you basically. Out of pocket is $0, monthly cost about same as I pay for the same amount of electricity now, but no rate increase gauranteed for that portion.

I'm in the north east but my roof is quite large and is totally unobstructed, south-facing.

To be honest I'd already have pulled the trigger on it but I need a couple grand in possible roof repairs first (which CAN wait a lot longer--but not if I do solar) before I go with it.

My from-the-wall-cost of power, delivered and all that, is about $.105 kWh right now.

I go through an awful lot of electricity, even before the Leaf.

Over-sizing the system for most people won't be a consideration. Using my entire roof I'll only cover 60% because I guzzle that juice. A neighbor has a larger roof and has maxed it out, and is relatively conservative in electricity use, and isn't quite hitting 100% of his needs.

Whereabouts are you in the Northeast? Here in upstate NY, the solar resources are some of the lowest in the country (although they're greater than Germany, which leads the world in solar deployment). I use a 100-200 kWh/month less than average households in my area, yet to get to 100%, I have to use my entire roof. If you're a high user, I'm not at all surprised you can only reach 60%.

I got a relatively small system - about 1/2 my pre-Leaf useage, currently about 1/3 of my useage with the Leaf.

If you are in NYS, I highly encourage you to look deeper into solar. NYSERDA is still giving grants of $1.75/watt. NYS is giving a tax credit of 25%, and the federal credit stands at 30%. This makes solar very attractive. Or if you're in NJ, I know they have SRECs, which make it even cheaper still.

There's a company operating in the northeast called Astrum Solar - if you get panels through them, they will work with you when you have to replace a roof (they will remove/store/reinstall your panels for cheap).

 

[RegGuheert]

To be honest I'd already have pulled the trigger on it but I need a couple grand in possible roof repairs first (which CAN wait a lot longer--but not if I do solar) before I go with it.

That's what we did. We replaced our entire roof with top-quality architectural-grade shingles right before installing the array.

My from-the-wall-cost of power, delivered and all that, is about $.105 kWh right now.

Yep, that's the going rate around here, but keep in mind that you can expect that to go up over the life of your solar array. I was reading before the election that Obama has tasked the EPA with adding extensive new restrictions on emissions targeted at coal-fired electricity generation plants which certainly will raise our rates over the next few years.

 

[lipower]

I also purchased all the materials outright but installed the system myself. My payoff will be less than one year after my federal deduction, state grant, selling one year of SREC's, and elimination of monthly electric bills. 20,000 free electric miles per year and all the electrons my home needs for the next 40 years. It is amazing how few people are doing this. Actually it's funny how many people are EXPERTS at calculating the payoff of solar ("its going to take 30 years for you to get your money back!!") and have never priced out a system themselves. I'm sure it's pretty close to the same amount of people that are always trying to calculate the payback period of purchasing an electric car compared to the cheapest ICE vehicle they can find.

 

[thait84]

I also purchased all the materials outright but installed the system myself. My payoff will be less than one year after my federal deduction, state grant, selling one year of SREC's, and elimination of monthly electric bills. 20,000 free electric miles per year and all the electrons my home needs for the next 40 years. It is amazing how few people are doing this. Actually it's funny how many people are EXPERTS at calculating the payoff of solar ("its going to take 30 years for you to get your money back!!") and have never priced out a system themselves. I'm sure it's pretty close to the same amount of people that are always trying to calculate the payback period of purchasing an electric car compared to the cheapest ICE vehicle they can find.

I thought installation was hard to do yourself?

Do you have special training that would have made this easier for you? I am a Software Engineer and I think I would be hesitant to install it myself. But maybe it isn't as complicated as I read.

 

[thankyouOB]

solar?
fabulous.
since 2008.
with time of use meter it runs the house and the LEAF and we have $400 in the solar bank for this winter and rainy days.

cost 28k
utility rebate 13k
fed credit 5k

to us=10k

$700 in yearly electric free
7% return on investment.

$2400 in yearly gasoline eliminated.
yes, it is not a quick, full return of the funds, but it is immeasurably good on the feeling end of things.
it puts a smile on our faces every day.

 

[FairwoodRed]

I thought installation was hard to do yourself?

Do you have special training that would have made this easier for you? I am a Software Engineer and I think I would be hesitant to install it myself. But maybe it isn't as complicated as I read.

I did my own design and installation.

If you can install a dryer outlet, then you probably have the skills to learn the few additional things you need to know on the electrical side. On the mechanical side, if you can do minor roofing repairs, then you probably can learn the installation too. Unirack’s website has an online tool to help with mounting point placement.

I’m a big advocate for DIY as I don’t like the huge markups that the professionals charge. My 13.8kW system was quoted at $120,000 installed. I did it for $45,000.

I’d be willing to talk to you on the phone to share my system experiences and to answer your questions. PM me if you’re interested.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

I also purchased all the materials outright but installed the system myself. ...snip... It is amazing how few people are doing this. ...snip...

I thought installation was hard to do yourself?

Do you have special training that would have made this easier for you? I am a Software Engineer and I think I would be hesitant to install it myself. But maybe it isn't as complicated as I read.

It is not especially "difficult", but it can be "tedious" doing the same thing dozens of times. Like many tasks, installing the roof mounts and racking gets easier with each piece as you become more proficient. Generally speaking, Spanish tiles take more work than composite shingles, but I have not tried the newer no-drill tile hangers. Using micro-inverters, especially some of the newest types, for each panel is electrically simpler than running DC wiring to a single inverter in/on the garage wall, and may inspire fewer problems and questions with some city building & safety departments. There is a material cost cross-over point as the system size increases, however, but shading issues may still favor micro-inverters. A good starting point for information and book sources is Homepower Magazine, http://www.homepower.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If you are new to PV, designing a system will be the most crucial part, but you can always hire experience in that area -- something which may also help when getting your permit. Lastly, not all state rebates and incentives are available to owners who install their own systems. Some of the state programs require installation by "qualified, certified, licensed, trained, etc.", personnel to ensure the state is getting full value for their investment. As with most projects, research and preparation will pay big dividends.

Software engineers have the logical and procedural talents to undertake a job like this. Friends and hired talent can always tutor you in the mechanical aspects. Besides, four or more hands will work more efficiently than two. . .

 

[GetOffYourGas]

20,000 free electric miles per year

$2400 in yearly gasoline eliminated.

It is illogical to claim that your solar panels had anything to do with your gasoline usage, and then use that claim to calculate a payback. Solar panels produce electricity, not gasoline.

It is your car that allowed you to switch from paying $2400/year in gasoline to paying $800/year in electricity. Then your solar panels saved you from paying $800/year in electricity.

 

[thankyouOB]

20,000 free electric miles per year

$2400 in yearly gasoline eliminated.

It is illogical to claim that your solar panels had anything to do with your gasoline usage, and then use that claim to calculate a payback. Solar panels produce electricity, not gasoline.

It is your car that allowed you to switch from paying $2400/year in gasoline to paying $800/year in electricity. Then your solar panels saved you from paying $800/year in electricity.

i updated the entry. I never included -- even in the original -- the gasoline savings in the return on investment, as you imply.
-------
regardless, it is not all about the Benjamins, for me, at least.