Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

[DaveinOlyWA]

$2.86 at the Coast Guard Base this morning!

we topped off tank for our trip last week on Tuesday. gas was $3.38. filled up today and gas was $3.669 oh well. it was too cheap anyway

ya, i believe we have a typo

 

[AndyH]

Maybe not a typo. Fuel stations on military bases are part of the non-appropriated funds pool - like gyms, swimming pools, outdoor recreation, restaurants, and other facilities on base/post. They're somewhat close to non-profit as a collective.



http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx

 

[TomT]

Nope, not a typo... Among other things, no taxes on fuel for the military...

$2.86 at the Coast Guard Base this morning!

we topped off tank for our trip last week on Tuesday. gas was $3.38. filled up today and gas was $3.669 oh well. it was too cheap anyway

ya, i believe we have a typo

 

[ztanos]

...Obviously you can't drive a car off wind (yet) so that rules your option out. ...

Huh? Is the electricity from a wind turbine somehow unusable to charge a car?

I was making this statement off a quote. I was asking about alternative fuels and wind was mentioned to me, along with electric. These would then be considered two different things. I think it would be neat to have a small wind turbine under the hood to recharge while you drive though.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Maybe not a typo. Fuel stations on military bases are part of the non-appropriated funds pool - like gyms, swimming pools, outdoor recreation, restaurants, and other facilities on base/post. They're somewhat close to non-profit as a collective.



http://www.gasbuddy.com/gb_gastemperaturemap.aspx

there is no profit in gas for the station owner. i am familiar with the "military" discount and it does vary greatly but not by a buck. i have seen it as much as 30 cents previously but lately its more like 10-15 cents. every once in a while, Costco with its 3% discount is a better deal

 

[AndyH]

Feel free to offer up your solution, then.

My solution was to buy a Prius that got >50 mpg, instead of my turbo Mitsubishi that only managed ~20 mpg. The government screwed that up with E10, and now I barely manage a little over 45 mpg. My new solution was to buy the LEAF, and I guess I'll wait and see how the government screws that up somehow.
As I said, don't get me wrong, I'm all for alternative fuels and energy. I'm practically the poster child for it to my friends. I just feel that I was robbed. I took the big leap of faith, spent my hard-earned money on a new 2006 Prius, and then watched almost 10% of my gas mileage disappear overnight. Everytime I fill up I'm paying for 10 gallons of gas, but actually only getting 9.
E85 or E100 is a completely different matter, when running in cars that have been designed for it. But, how many "Flex Fuel" vehicles do you ever see filling up with E85? All my friends just pull up to the regular 87 octane gas pump like they always have. If everyone who owned a Flex Fuel vehicle actually used E85 in it, there wouldn't be any need for E10, IMO. It is just the supplier's way to meet the government mandated ethanol quotos.
Enforcing our access to Mideast oil by military force is the government's idea, not mine, so don't lay that guilt trip on me. I think we should be paying the same $8-$10/gallon as most other nations, and then we might seem some real changes in people's habits and attitudes.

This has been bothering me and I feel strongly it needs to be revisited.

Am I reading this correctly? It appears that any use of ethanol is a government screw-up. It appears that somehow ethanol and/or the government are the problem when your friends use gasoline instead of E85 in their flex fuel vehicles. And yet, in spite of the attempt to use an alternative fuel to reduce oil imports - an alternative you apparently do not agree with - you don't think you're complicit in any/all activities required to get you the gasoline you choose to use even when there are alternatives available? Do you see the disconnects here?!

And no - G90/E10 is part of an effort to reduce the damage done to the atmosphere and people's lungs when burning straight gasoline. Ethanol replaced other oxygenates that were found to be more damaging to people than the original emissions. E85 is a full-on gasoline replacement/alternative fuel. Apples and oranges.

Guilt trip? Really? This is a guilt trip:

Mike Heller’s eyes transfixed on the broken gear shift in his hand.

In a fit of rage, he had just snapped it off while slamming his car into park. As his young daughter in the back seat was puzzled over what was going on, Mike’s mind flashed through images forged years earlier in Iraq…an exploding landmine…his violent ejection from a Humvee…the jolting pain of his spine as he crashed back into the vehicle.

And, perhaps his most dominant emotion, the loss of a friend he couldn’t save.

http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/mission/meet-a-warrior/mike-heller.aspx

Everyone in the US choosing to use gasoline - at ANY pump price - is directly responsible for our activities in the Middle East - and for every creature and family and business and dream that has died in the Gulf of Mexico. Every Single One.

Don't like the feeling? Change what you do with your money, your votes, and your phone calls to DC - and maybe even take a minute or two to set your friends straight on why they might consider making another choice.

 

[mkjayakumar]

After 2 months I filled my Van with $3.79/gallon today in Plano, TX

 

[MrIanB]

@tomT;

And rightfully so, thanks for your service.

Ian B

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Nope, not a typo... Among other things, no taxes on fuel for the military...

$2.86 at the Coast Guard Base this morning!

ya, i believe we have a typo

wow, so why is JBLM getting screwed? is the base subject to state fuel taxes (WA is one of the highest in the nation)

 

[AndyH]

Nope, not a typo... Among other things, no taxes on fuel for the military...

wow, so why is JBLM getting screwed? is the base subject to state fuel taxes (WA is one of the highest in the nation)

Bases are exempt from sales taxes but still pay other federally mandated fees/taxes. Prices drop if the fuel needs to be moved (to stay fresh) or as part of sales, or when the other 'businesses' in the non-appropriated funds pool have good cash flow months. Sometimes gas is a few cents less than 'civilian' prices and sometimes it's on sale.

 

[lkkms2]

so if averaging 55 mpg on E-0 and all else is equal then you should average about 53 mpg on E-10...

what is NOT discussed here is the greater factors that determine gas mileage and a VERY partial list includes

driver
condition of car including alignment, tire pressures, lubrication, oil fill levels
weather including temperatures, wind direction, etc
terrain and all its elevation changes,
traffic
and most of all; one's generally grandiose personal evaluation of their driving skills.

now; i have presented this argument hundreds of times and i dont really think i have changed anyone's mind. so people know what they know. this is the reason why i had not bothered to provide this information previously.

I, also, track the lifetime gas consumption of my car. I know every drop that goes into it, like you do. So I know that my results differ from yours. I actually ran my car more balls-to-the-walls before the E-10 transition. So I don't know if it is a factor of car being older or not, but my results are much worse than your less than 5% seems to indicate. As noted by others on this thread that is, also, the case. Not sure where we are all losing the difference as I'm sure your math is right. I just know that I don't like it. I know that I am losing money every fill up and having to fill up more often. How this = better, I'm not sure. Gas prices have gone up since E10 (granted, not due to the E), and now I'm having to fill up more often. So, no benefits really for me.

I will add a few other items that affected the gas mileage in my 2002 Prius:

- as my 12-volt battery got older, near the end of its life, and did not hold a good voltage charge as well as when it was newer, the Prius engine would stay on longer in an attempt to keep it charged properly. Thus using more gasoline and getting lower MPG.

- as my Mass Air Flow sensor got older and needed cleaning (or replacing) and the air/fuel ratio was not the best, my MPG was lower

- a very dirty air filter that needs replacing

These will all sneak up on you and reduce your MPG without you knowing why.

- a bigger factor, that is of course easier to measure, is putting on new tires with more tread. You have a tire with a bigger radius, and a different rolling resistance. I have seen an almost 10% lower MPG.

On the E10 gasoline, one thing that one may not easily recognize is that the actual cost is lower than straight gasoline (E0) would be for two reasons. First Since ethanol has a higher octane they can use a lower costing gasoline with lower octane and blend it to get regular 87 octane or the higher octane grade gasoline. Second, ethanol is generally cheaper per gallon than straight gasoline (it has been as much as a dollar cheaper, though probably not right now)

I am sorry I do not have specific numbers to quantify how much cheaper a gallon of E10 is compared to E0, but I believe it is there and helps keep the cost of gasoline down all across the nation, resulting in a hidden benefit for every ICE driver.

Other benefits of cleaner air, more local U.S. jobs, and sending less dollars overseas (for foreign oil) have already been mentioned.

 

[AndyH]

...I am sorry I do not have specific numbers to quantify how much cheaper a gallon of E10 is compared to E0, but I believe it is there and helps keep the cost of gasoline down all across the nation, resulting in a hidden benefit for every ICE driver.

In 2008:

Recent research on the impact of ethanol on average U.S. gasoline prices today has shown effects ranging from 20-35 cents per gallon (earlier study from Department of Energy and Department of Agriculture) to 50 cents per gallon of gasoline (Merrill Lynch).

http://www.nrel.gov/analysis/pdfs/44517.pdf

2011:

This report updates the findings in Du and Hayes 2009 by extending the data to December 2010 and concludes that over the sample period from January 2000 to December 2010, the growth in ethanol production reduced wholesale gasoline prices by $0.25 per gallon on average. The Midwest region experienced the biggest impact, with a $0.39/gallon reduction, while the East Coast had the smallest impact at $0.16/gallon. Based on the data of 2010 only, the marginal impacts on gasoline prices are found to be substantially higher given the much higher ethanol production and crude oil prices. The average effect increases to $0.89/gallon and the regional impact ranges from $0.58/gallon in the East Coast to $1.37/gallon in the Midwest. In addition, we report on a related analysis that asks what would happen to US gasoline prices if ethanol production came to an immediate halt. Under a very wide range of parameters, the estimated gasoline price increase would be of historic proportions, ranging from 41% to 92%.

http://www.card.iastate.edu/publications/synopsis.aspx?id=1160

 

[cwerdna]

Reuters: Crude oil ought to be $150 per barrel: Iran:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/16/us-iran-oil-prices-idUSBRE88F0EQ20120916" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Crude oil should be at least $150 per barrel, Iran's oil minister was quoted as saying on Sunday, and the sanctions-hit country's OPEC governor said current oil prices were not high enough to threaten the world economy.

 

[AndyH]

Ready for $200/barrel crude?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml2cpb-1kmU[/youtube]

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

anyone notice that oil prices are dropping (slowly) but the gas prices seem to be stable?

 

[WetEV]

anyone notice that oil prices are dropping (slowly) but the gas prices seem to be stable?

What is gas? :lol:

 

[TomT]

People seem to lose sight of the fact that petroleum is used for many other things other than just gas. A dramatic increase in petroleum cost or a reduction in availability will have dramatic implications for the economy and GDP. Saying that gas does not affect you is extremely short sighted and just wrong.

anyone notice that oil prices are dropping (slowly) but the gas prices seem to be stable?

What is gas? :lol:

 

[WetEV]

People seem to lose sight of the fact that petroleum is used for many other things other than just gas. A dramatic increase in petroleum cost or a reduction in availability will have dramatic implications for the economy and GDP. Saying that gas does not affect you is extremely short sighted and just wrong.

anyone notice that oil prices are dropping (slowly) but the gas prices seem to be stable?

What is gas? :lol:

Don't confuse a joke with a policy statement.

As you point out, oil is currently a key part of the economy, and for a lot more than gasoline. Oil is also a non-renewable resource, and sooner or later will be all gone, or more correctly so hard to extract that it will become too expensive for all major current uses. And even if oil resources are not the limit, there will need to be a limit somehow on the use of fossil carbon at some point. 3C per doubling of CO2 gets compelling at some point before the most of the land is hot enough to be fatal without mechanical cooling.

The implications are stunning. Alternatives exist for some uses that are quite reasonable (and even better than oil, like EVs). Others... hard to say. Others... looks like a real problem replacing oil.

Total impact? Impossible to predict.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

People seem to lose sight of the fact that petroleum is used for many other things other than just gas. A dramatic increase in petroleum cost or a reduction in availability will have dramatic implications for the economy and GDP. Saying that gas does not affect you is extremely short sighted and just wrong.

anyone notice that oil prices are dropping (slowly) but the gas prices seem to be stable?

What is gas? :lol:

WetEV was making a joke but your statement is not. you advocate continuing to do the wrong thing? or just advocating a bigger hole?

a lot of people are in the camp that out debt will never be paid and that we should just "wipe the slate clean" which can be done by cranking up a few planes and guns. its not likely the debt can be negotiated away since we cannot even pay a small fraction of it.

this country runs on oil and it flourished and all things change including this whether it be today or tomorrow; have no doubt. oil is on its way out

 

[Nubo]

Maybe not a typo. Fuel stations on military bases are part of the non-appropriated funds pool - like gyms, swimming pools, outdoor recreation, restaurants, and other facilities on base/post. They're somewhat close to non-profit as a collective.

I remember learning this rather abruptly. We drove across the country on our honeymoon. One stop was in South Carolina to visit a brother and his wife, both in the Air Force at the time. We arrived late at night, and then the next day I needed to get some groceries so I could make supper for everyone.

I'd remembered seeing a small convenience-type store nearby so I walked over. As I was picking up the few items I needed, I was thinking to myself: "My goodness, things certainly are CHEAP in South Carolina!!"

I wheeled up to the checkout, happy as a clam.

Until the fellow at the register asked to see my ID. No, the other ID.




The concept that we were actually on a military base just hadn't registered.... :lol: