Finally got me some edumacation!

[ztanos]

I think many who have smaller SUVs (e.g. Ford Escape, Nissan Rogue, etc.) and only need 5 seats would find the (larger) 42 mpg combined Prius v wagon to suit their needs instead of low 20s combined mpg. Unfortunately, the passenger and luggage volume figures at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; seem broken for many small SUVs.

Lets get real. The Prius V isn't a wagon. That v stands for Van!!!! The last thing I want to drive is a minivan. :lol: I did consider the Prius C though, until I found that the LEAF would work for me.

 

[cwerdna]

I think many who have smaller SUVs (e.g. Ford Escape, Nissan Rogue, etc.) and only need 5 seats would find the (larger) 42 mpg combined Prius v wagon to suit their needs instead of low 20s combined mpg. Unfortunately, the passenger and luggage volume figures at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; seem broken for many small SUVs.

Lets get real. The Prius V isn't a wagon. That v stands for Van!!!! The last thing I want to drive is a minivan. :lol: I did consider the Prius C though, until I found that the LEAF would work for me.

I don't like that Toyota chose v because it created confusion with the 2010 Prius V (model V with V being a Roman numeral). Toyota says v stands for versatile. :roll:

It is a wagon though and looks like one too. It's classified as a midsize station wagon at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31836" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It also has no sliding doors, which most minivans do and unfortunately, the version we get in the US only seats 5. Most minivans for consumers seat 7+ now.

 

[ztanos]

I think many who have smaller SUVs (e.g. Ford Escape, Nissan Rogue, etc.) and only need 5 seats would find the (larger) 42 mpg combined Prius v wagon to suit their needs instead of low 20s combined mpg. Unfortunately, the passenger and luggage volume figures at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; seem broken for many small SUVs.

Lets get real. The Prius V isn't a wagon. That v stands for Van!!!! The last thing I want to drive is a minivan. :lol: I did consider the Prius C though, until I found that the LEAF would work for me.

I don't like that Toyota chose v because it created confusion with the 2010 Prius V (model V with V being a Roman numeral). Toyota says v stands for versatile. :roll:

It is a wagon though and looks like one too. It's classified as a midsize station wagon at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31836" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It also has no sliding doors, which most minivans do and unfortunately, the version we get in the US only seats 5. Most minivans for consumers seat 7+ now.

You're right... it doesn't have sliding doors. It's a wagon... that makes it soooo much cooler.

 

[ksnogas2112]

The V is to go with the style of 5 so you can not by it because <sammy hagar>"I can't drive V5"</sammy hagar>

:lol: :lol:

 

[gbarry42]

"v" is for "Versatile". To me, that means, "moving target"

 

[GRA]

, and although I've pointed out that the guards just add weight and decrease both handling and mileage, he's happy with them (and the truck) because they 'look cool'. Clearly, rational analysis of his driving needs had no part in his purchase, but it's his money.

Don't be jealous.

I've got a go-rhino grille guard on my car. It's pure awesomeness. If I could find one for the LEAF, I might just consider installing one!

Is that before or after you install the steer horns?

 

[jwatte]

I drive the Leaf for commuting. My wife has the wagon for schlepping kids, and for longer family trips 1 or 2 times a year.
The wagon is on its last legs. I'm looking for something with fairly simple requirements:
Seats 6 + dog, 30 mpg or better.
There exists nothing on the market that fulfills these two requirements! The Toyota Highlander Hybrid did for a while (at 30 mpg) but is now down to 28 mpg.

30 mpg was the economy of my dad's Volvo in the '70s. I thought internal combustion technology had improved since then?

 

[TomT]

We looked at it but it just doesn't work for us... With the higher final gear ratio it is also very thrashy and noisy, but still slower than a regular Prius. If the new 2013 Escape came in a hybrid version, it would be perfect. (Yes, I know, a hybrid version is due around the end of the year, but it actually a considerably different and not as compelling vehicle...)

I think many who have smaller SUVs (e.g. Ford Escape, Nissan Rogue, etc.) and only need 5 seats would find the (larger) 42 mpg combined Prius v wagon to suit their needs instead of low 20s combined mpg.

 

[LEAFfan]

30 mpg was the economy of my dad's Volvo in the '70s. I thought internal combustion technology had improved since then?

Cars back then were heavy polluters but could get good mileage, so with all the additional pollution-fighting equipment, it lowered the mileage.

 

[cwerdna]

I drive the Leaf for commuting. My wife has the wagon for schlepping kids, and for longer family trips 1 or 2 times a year.
The wagon is on its last legs. I'm looking for something with fairly simple requirements:
Seats 6 + dog, 30 mpg or better.
There exists nothing on the market that fulfills these two requirements! The Toyota Highlander Hybrid did for a while (at 30 mpg) but is now down to 28 mpg.

30 mpg was the economy of my dad's Volvo in the '70s. I thought internal combustion technology had improved since then?

There's been weight (some of it due to safety), size and horsepower bloat. See http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/csaba-csere-minicars-i-dont-see-no-stinking-minicars-column" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and executive summary at http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fetrends.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Also, the EPA FE tests have changed several times since their inception in the mid 70s. See http://priuschat.com/threads/car-and-driver-the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates.67235/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, in particular http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

If you want to see what the raw numbers the '12 HyHi gets on the EPA tests (this is what would've gone on the Monroney sticker before all the changes, at least two of them), download the data file at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/download.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It gets an unadjusted combined rating of 38.464 mpg.

The '12 HyHi weighs 4762 lbs and has 280 net system hp. I'm sure this is way heavier and WAY more hp than that '70s Volvo.

As for "The Toyota Highlander Hybrid did for a while (at 30 mpg) but is now down to 28 mpg." What model year was that? Not sure if you realize that there were EPA FE test changes starting w/model year 08. I looked up 2WD and 4WD 06 and 07 HyHi, and after adjustment downwards to be equivalent to current ratings, I see the are only rated at 26 and 27 mpg combined.

06 HyHi 2WD did show 33/28, 30 combined prior to adjustment. Afterwards --> 28/25, 27 combined. So, mileage of the '12 HyHi is actually better at 28/28, 28 combined. You can look this all up at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cars back then were heavy polluters but could get good mileage, so with all the additional pollution-fighting equipment, it lowered the mileage.

Yep. Some of that is to blame. This isn't my area of expertise but from what I hear, lean burn engines == very high emissions.

 

[jwatte]

I was not aware of the calculation changes; that does explain some of the changes. Thanks for the links!

But, really -- I recently heard a Chevy Tahoe Hybrid billed as a "gas sipper...." At 20/23 mpg.

I don't need 250 hp. I think 125 hp would be fine.
I don't particularly need 5000 lbs of vehicle. I think a safe 6-person vehicle can be built at 4000 lbs, or even 3500 lbs.
In Europe, there are lower-end engine choices. You can buy a BMW 7-series with a two-liter four-cylinder engine (well, at least you used to be able to -- haven't kept up lately.) Audi, Mercedes, and the others will give you 0.6 l / 100 km, which translates to 40 mpg highway.
There are minivan-like "people mover" type vehicles with less heavy-duty SUV macho on the market in Japan, Europe and south-east Asia. Maybe they would not be the biggest sellers in the US, but I would like to at least have the option of buying them here...

 

[GRA]

I was not aware of the calculation changes; that does explain some of the changes. Thanks for the links!

But, really -- I recently heard a Chevy Tahoe Hybrid billed as a "gas sipper...." At 20/23 mpg.

I don't need 250 hp. I think 125 hp would be fine.
I don't particularly need 5000 lbs of vehicle. I think a safe 6-person vehicle can be built at 4000 lbs, or even 3500 lbs.
In Europe, there are lower-end engine choices. You can buy a BMW 7-series with a two-liter four-cylinder engine (well, at least you used to be able to -- haven't kept up lately.) Audi, Mercedes, and the others will give you 0.6 l / 100 km, which translates to 40 mpg highway.
There are minivan-like "people mover" type vehicles with less heavy-duty SUV macho on the market in Japan, Europe and south-east Asia. Maybe they would not be the biggest sellers in the US, but I would like to at least have the option of buying them here...

That should be 6L/100km. And the European mileage standards are different from those in the U.S. (less conservative from the few comparisons I've made), so it's probably not appropriate to read them straight across.

 

[cwerdna]

I was not aware of the calculation changes; that does explain some of the changes. Thanks for the links!

But, really -- I recently heard a Chevy Tahoe Hybrid billed as a "gas sipper...." At 20/23 mpg.

I don't need 250 hp. I think 125 hp would be fine.
I don't particularly need 5000 lbs of vehicle. I think a safe 6-person vehicle can be built at 4000 lbs, or even 3500 lbs.
In Europe, there are lower-end engine choices. You can buy a BMW 7-series with a two-liter four-cylinder engine (well, at least you used to be able to -- haven't kept up lately.) Audi, Mercedes, and the others will give you 0.6 l / 100 km, which translates to 40 mpg highway.
There are minivan-like "people mover" type vehicles with less heavy-duty SUV macho on the market in Japan, Europe and south-east Asia. Maybe they would not be the biggest sellers in the US, but I would like to at least have the option of buying them here...

That should be 6L/100km. And the European mileage standards are different from those in the U.S. (less conservative from the few comparisons I've made), so it's probably not appropriate to read them straight across.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; also discussed the MY 2008+ Monroney sticker FE test changes. (I followed this since all vehicle MPG ratings dropped at MY08 and my mom bought a leftover 07 NAH when 08s were on the lot. Car was unchanged, values went down.)

I just also found http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420f06069.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; re: the MY08 changes. When this was written in December 06, it says:

The test methods for calculating these estimates were last revised in 1984, when the fuel economy derived from the two tests were adjusted downward – 10 percent for city and 22 percent for highway -- to more accurately reflect driving styles and conditions.

That's the other change that I recall. So, sometime on/after 84 but before MY08, you could take the raw EPA dyno (unadj) numbers (at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/download.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false and multiple the city unadj figure by 0.9 and highway unadj by 0.78 to get the (now old) Monroney sticker numbers.

I don't closely follow 6+ passenger vehicles but the Mazda 5 (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsSpecs2&vehicleCode=MZ5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false is 157 hp, weighs 3457 lbs and supposedly seats 6. FE falls well short of what you'd like though.

Yeah, LOL re: the Tahoe Hybrid. It's no surprise that GM's monstrosity class 2-mode hybrids haven't sold well (http://www.hybridcars.com/news/may-2012-dashboard-46746.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

Yep, re: inflated European FE standards. Per http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates-the-truth-about-epa-city-highway-mpg-estimates-page-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (page 3 of the article I cited):

One last fuel-economy tidbit: Don’t even think of comparing EPA figures with stand­ardized fuel-economy tests from other countries because the test cycles are very different. For example, the European highway rating, called “extra urban,” is higher than the EPA’s by about 30 percent, so a rating on that cycle of, say, 60 mpg, would be closer to 40 in this country. The mainstream press, not realizing the difference, often complains that automakers refuse to bring efficient models here when, in fact, they may not be all that efficient when measured by U.S. standards.

For example, per http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=23493" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; the '12 Prius gets these figures:

Imperial Urban (cold) 70.6
Imperial Extra Urban 74.3
Imperial Combined 70.6

Metric Urban (cold) 4.0
Metric Extra Urban 3.8
Metric Combined 4.0

The Imperial measures are in larger Imperial gallons. Those figures translated into miles per US gallons are:
58.79 mpg
61.87 mpg
58.79 mpg

58.80 mpg
61.9 mpg
58.80 mpg

US EPA estimates for the same car (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=31767" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false are 51 city/48 highway, 50 combined.

It really is too bad Toyota's not bringing the 7 seat version of the Prius v to the US (http://priuschat.com/threads/hands-on-prius-plus-or-prius-v-toyota%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%84%A2s-first-hybrid-mpv-and-cnbc-video.91025/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. That version has the NiMH battery in the back replaced w/a smaller li-ion one that's in the front center armrest/console area. That makes room for the extra row of seats. It's also too bad that Toyota doesn't bring their JDM Estima hybrid minivan to the US or that nobody else jumps on this opportunity.

 

[TomT]

They determined that the extra cost would make it uncompetitive in the U.S. due to our lousy exchange rate... Also, they felt that the rear seats are too small to appeal to the U.S. buyer...

It really is too bad Toyota's not bringing the 7 seat version of the Prius v to the US (http://priuschat.com/threads/hands-on-prius-plus-or-prius-v-toyota%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%84%A2s-first-hybrid-mpv-and-cnbc-video.91025/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. That version has the NiMH battery in the back replaced w/a smaller li-ion one that's in the front center armrest/console area. That makes room for the extra row of seats.

 

[cwerdna]

They determined that the extra cost would make it uncompetitive in the U.S. due to our lousy exchange rate... Also, they felt that the rear seats are too small to appeal to the U.S. buyer...

It really is too bad Toyota's not bringing the 7 seat version of the Prius v to the US (http://priuschat.com/threads/hands-on-prius-plus-or-prius-v-toyota%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%84%A2s-first-hybrid-mpv-and-cnbc-video.91025/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. That version has the NiMH battery in the back replaced w/a smaller li-ion one that's in the front center armrest/console area. That makes room for the extra row of seats.

Do you have an official source for that? We only have lots of speculation (IIRC) at Priuschat, including some of my own.

The pricing of the JDM 7-seater was pretty high already though. I do agree that it's likely the extra seats might be too small for American tastes.

 

[jwatte]

their JDM Estima hybrid minivan

See, that's what I'm talking about! There are other similar vehicles from vendors like VW or M-B, too.
A while back, some Toyota exec was saying "you'll see hybrid versions of all Toyota vehicles" and I was hoping for a hybrid Sienna. No such luck :-(

At this point, I may go Diesel. Not so much for the better MPG, but for the biodiesel ability. There's a biodiesel station right at my freeway onramp.
I wouldn't be surprised if what Valero bills as "biodiesel" is 5% virgin corn oil and 95% dead dinosaurs, though...

 

[ERG4ALL]

Not to get back on topic, but we have displayed our LEAF at six public events so far to help spread the word about EVs. I've put together various exhibits to help disseminate the truth. I encourage all of you to do the same and you will see as the originator of this topic did that there is a wide spectrum of intelligence out there. I've had people very interested and very receptive to honest information. On the other end I had a bigot that wouldn't consider a LEAF because it was Japanese. He walked away when I tried to explain how many jobs Nissan has in this country producing cars. At the same time I'm sure he doesn't realize that even Ford has some parts made in China.

If anyone is interested in helping to spread the truth at local events, send me a PM and I can send you copies of my exhibits that may help you create your own display.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Not to get back on topic, but we have displayed our LEAF at six public events so far to help spread the word about EVs. I've put together various exhibits to help disseminate the truth. I encourage all of you to do the same and you will see as the originator of this topic did that there is a wide spectrum of intelligence out there. I've had people very interested and very receptive to honest information. On the other end I had a bigot that wouldn't consider a LEAF because it was Japanese. He walked away when I tried to explain how many jobs Nissan has in this country producing cars. At the same time I'm sure he doesn't realize that even Ford has some parts made in China.

If anyone is interested in helping to spread the truth at local events, send me a PM and I can send you copies of my exhibits that may help you create your own display.

We had our Leaf at a small time car show where I met the guy who shared the pearls of wisdom that started this thread. The Leaf is a little out of place at these events as a non-customized production car, but it sure attracts a lot of attention and conversation.

 

[LEAFfan]

Our PEAA has had several 'EV Expos' throughout the year and some people said they were going to definitely lease or buy a LEAF at several of these. Besides a pile of LEAFs (pun intended), we've had Teslas, iMiEVs, a Smart EV, a couple EV dragsters, and many conversions all on display.

 

[ERG4ALL]

I imagine that we all know that by using renewable charging resources, our LEAFs do not contribute to global warming. Popular Science has an interesting article in the July 2012 issue on global warming and the reaction some scientists are exposed to. The article is called "The Battle" and the lead in states, "Climate scientists face death threats, hate mail and nuisance lawsuits. How much worse can it get?" As a side-bar it has a picture of Richard Muller with the caption, "Richard Muller, a physicist, was one of the few prominent scientists skeptical of global warming. He reversed his position last year." Muller apparently still has some valid concerns about the quality and exaggerations of some of the research, but as a scientist he now does agree with the basic premise.

http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2012/06/15/richard-muller-yep-still-skeptical/

The PopSci article is interesting and informative and while you are at it, the companion article "Four Futures" is well worth the time.

When I display our LEAF, I tend to emphasize the financial savings and the pollution in our major cities. I stay away from oil depletion and global warming but they are ever present in my mind. My experience has been that for some people you get nowhere, so you might as well see if you can encourage people to do something good for the planet without them knowing it.