FFE vs Leaf PURCHASE decision help requested

[EvansvilleLeaf]

I have a few months in my Leaf lease to go but likely to pull the trigger with current rebates. I'm buying this time. Waiting for the next big battery breakthough will just push me into another money drain lease.

SITUATION: Lower midwest location mostly benign climate with a handful of >100 or <20 days. Have long distance ICE car. No QCs within 300 miles. Typical commute 15-30 miles daily. 2 people only no cargo concerns. Essentially it's a runabout/commuter short distance car. Very little highway use indeed - maybe 20 miles a month.

CHOICE: With various rebates etc I can get either base FFE or Leaf SV with Premium for 27500 before Fed rebate, which I'll get in toto. Bottom line is either will cost me about 20k net plus usual tags etc. Price is within a gnat's hair of each other. Tie.

MY THOUGHTS. With almost ideal babying (no QC, low speed, moderate climate, 80% charges) I'm at 84% Hx and one bar down after 2.4 yrs and 14500 miles. Would active cooling on the FFE help me? Couldn't hurt. But I'm not within driving distance of any Ford Electric certified dealer if anything goes wrong with HVB it's tow time. I prefer FFE looks but Leaf for occasionally rear passenger/shopping trip. Neither is major to me though. Driven both slightly prefer FFE but again either is fine here. As a purchaser, long term viability for my needs for at least 7+ yrs of reliable use is far more important. My Leaf has been essentially flawless but losing more than I would hope. Arethe HVAC systems different enough to matter? Biggest quibble with my pre-heat pump Leaf is absurdly inefficient heat and especially defog.

ALMOST BUT NOT QUITE OUT OF IT: Like the MB B EV. Affording is no issue but I don't really see the point of spending 15k on subjective appeal and a bit more range that I personally don't need. i-MIEV would be about 5k cheaper and meet my needs but not sure I can handle that much decontenting and RWD light car on our rarely but occasionally icy streets seems risky. Smart? Cute and cheap but I'm a 270lb former competitive weightlifer and my wife is not that slender either. 48" shoulder width is a no go I am afraid. BMW and Teslas out - not enough value for the $$ to my needs. Volt is uncomfortable, absurdly scrapey and we already have a PHEV in the CMax Energi. Looking for pure EV.

Thoughts, especially from the more technical foks where I am less capable, warmly invited. Thanks!

 

[evnow]

" But I'm not within driving distance of any Ford Electric certified dealer if anything goes wrong with HVB it's tow time."

That could be a big issue.

I'd hesitate to get a vehicle that can't be serviced locally. The reason I didn't get a RAV4EV, for eg.

My suggestion, as always, is to lease and not buy - since you seem to not have financial issues.

 

[ksnogas2112]

Take one more thing into consideration...cabin size. The two cabins are dramatically different in the size and layout. I'm a little guy but found the FFE cabin to be cramped.

 

[EvansvilleLeaf]

Take one more thing into consideration...cabin size. The two cabins are dramatically different in the size and layout. I'm a little guy but found the FFE cabin to be cramped.

Hmm strange. I'm a 54 jacket size and had no problem. Headroom in the Leaf is higher but at 5'10 or so that's not my issue. What dimension felt cramped to you? Talking front seats here - rear leg is tight but we only have one very occasional rear seat passenger a few times a year and he's about 5'5 and 130 so no issue. Note I'm not saying you're wrong at all - cabin size is quite a fungible idea even though it's easy to measure. Number of times I've felt more space in smaller cabins and vice versa depending on angles etc.

 

[asimba2]

I am an active member on the Ford Focus Electric forums as well. Here is a screenshot from right now, that may illustrate my next point:

Between the "stop safely now" problems, the number of lemon buy-backs I have read about, and Ford's general lack of interest in EVs other than for the purpose of collecting CARB credits, I am happy to have chosen Leaf.

 

[evnow]

Between the "stop safely now" problems, the number of lemon buy-backs I have read about, and Ford's general lack of interest in EVs other than for the purpose of collecting CARB credits, I am happy to have chosen Leaf.

That general lack of commitment is a big problem - that affects everything from how they respond to problems to how dealers treat the customers.

 

[adric22]

If you are considering purchasing.. I'd probably steer you away from the FFE because I'm not sure how much support you'll have down the line when the warranty runs out. They aren't making very many of these cars and parts and information resources will likely be scarce one day. With a Leaf, you know you'll always be able to find parts and knowledgeable people online that can help you troubleshoot it. Some day Ford may get serious about the FFE, but it will likely be a different design than the one that is currently for sale.

 

[RonDawg]

If you're waiting for the "next big battery breakthrough" consider extending your lease if the payments are low enough(say below the $250/month range). There is a thread specifically about people who have successfully extended their leases, though I think you have to notify NMAC in advance, so don't wait too long to think about it.

 

[GRA]

Maybe wait for/consider the Kia Soul EV?

 

[ksnogas2112]

Take one more thing into consideration...cabin size. The two cabins are dramatically different in the size and layout. I'm a little guy but found the FFE cabin to be cramped.

Hmm strange. I'm a 54 jacket size and had no problem. Headroom in the Leaf is higher but at 5'10 or so that's not my issue. What dimension felt cramped to you? Talking front seats here - rear leg is tight but we only have one very occasional rear seat passenger a few times a year and he's about 5'5 and 130 so no issue. Note I'm not saying you're wrong at all - cabin size is quite a fungible idea even though it's easy to measure. Number of times I've felt more space in smaller cabins and vice versa depending on angles etc.

It is a personal comfort thing. It's just one difference I thought I would mention to be sure it got covered.

 

[CayenneSJLEAFy]

Hi EvansvilleLeaf,

Have you considered a Chevy Volt? Here's my situation...

Last January, I traded in my '11 Nissan LEAF. I lost 1 capacity bar at 35K (at 2 years), and at 44K (6 months later), I was close to losing my second capacity bar. I live in a "mild" SF Bay Area climate, so I never expected to lose a bar this early. When I traded in, my LeafDD device showed 202 GIDs on a regular basis. Loved the car, hated the degradation, and frankly, I also hated looking at MNL on a daily basis, checking for any hope of a response from Nissan to address battery degradation, besides the SYB and 4 lost capacity bars by 60K before replacement. It's also disturbing to see lots of posts (690 pages to date) from frustrated, angry owners about the battery degradation, but no real support from Nissan.

I looked at both EVs and PHEVs out there. Wanted the most EV range at a reasonable cost (I'm not willing to go for a Tesla MS just yet). I hated driving the Prius and PIP (the way the engine kicked on and off was just unnerving). Not a whole lot of FFEs out here, even in the SF Bay Area, so I don't want a car that dealers won't be familiar with if there is a complicated problem.

Then I drove the Volt, and loved it. The drivetrain was incredibly smooth, and the car was well put together. Didn't know that GM can put together a car like this, and frankly never thought I'd get a GM car, but here I am.

I chose the Volt because of the proven track history for this car (so far). The battery TMS apparently is well-enginnered, given so little reports of degradation. The transition from EV to ICE is seamless, and the flexibility to run the ICE on freeway, and switch back to EV is just great. Got 216 MPG lifetime in 5 months, and 10K miles. Haven't bought gas in months, and averaging 50 miles/charge in summer now (even with A/C running).

Frankly, I'd love to go the pure EV route again, but I can't be assured that battery degradation has been fully controlled. The sampling size for existing EVs (besides LEAF and Model S) is still too small--Fiat 500E, FFE, RAV4 EV, Spark EV. I figure that even if the Volt's battery does degrade, I still got the ICE to get me where I need to go (it will just run more frequently).

Another big difference between GM and Nissan--Volt Advisors do scour the GM-Volt Forum, and they will actively reach out to owners quickly if they start seeing escalated problems. Onstar has also been useful in capturing any error messages and faults detected while you're driving.

The Volt is not perfect by any means. Interior is smaller than the LEAF, and it only seats 4. Charging is very slow at Level 2 (its about 9 to 11 miles/hour depending on charger). Capacitive controls can be slow--and may take multiple presses for desired function. There also have been random issues (such as the infamous bearing cage failure on early cars). But for each case I've seen, Volt Advisors have taken control on these issues and shepherded the owners through dealers for resolution.

Even in our mild climate, my Volt's TMS is almost always running when I plug the car in (the garage gets very warm from the TMS, and the car makes a faint hum as the car charges). No more worries about finding an available charger--in the Bay Area, there are lots of Level 2 chargers, but the population of EV/PHEVs has been exploding and finding occupied chargers is a frequent scenario now.

If cost is an issue for the Volt, year end is coming, and 2015s are on the horizon, so you might get a great deal. Only difference on the 2015 is the addition of the 4G to make the Volt a wifi hotspot. Why not consider a end of model year 2014 Volt?

Good luck!

Ivan Jue

 

[EvansvilleLeaf]

I did initially, but no more. My legs can barely squeeze under the wheel even at its highest position. The Starship Enterprise interior padding gets in the way of entry and exit, and it scrapes like it's tearing apart going over even short kerbs. Plus I don't want to haul an engine around when I only need to go 30 miles a day tops, and have other cars for road trips.

 

[braineo]

I bought both a Leaf SL and an iMiev SE. Love both. The 2011 Leaf lost first bar at 18k", starting to worry about battery, but expect Nissan to do something for 2011-12 owners. Agree with you on the iMiev lack of sophistication, but for less than 10k total cost after tax rebates, I'm not the one complaining about lack of cruise control and cheap interior (but radio is much better). I'd extend the lease if it makes sense, and then replaced with longer range leaf.

 

[EvansvilleLeaf]

I bought both a Leaf SL and an iMiev SE. Love both. The 2011 Leaf lost first bar at 18k", starting to worry about battery, but expect Nissan to do something for 2011-12 owners. Agree with you on the iMiev lack of sophistication, but for less than 10k total cost after tax rebates, I'm not the one complaining about lack of cruise control and cheap interior (but radio is much better). I'd extend the lease if it makes sense, and then replaced with longer range leaf.

I'm one of the 2010 preorderers who paid full retail with no state rebates. I'm not extending a 488/mo lease - I'll cut it as soon as they will let me. I am however a bit curious about your Leaf/iMiev comparison though. I couldn't get it for 10k but it would be 5k cheaper than the other two. Somewhat similar to the FFE, there isn't a dealer within driving range but not that far beyond it - a few hours on l2 would get me there. The only sophistication that bothers me is ride quality, noise level (wind/tires) and stability esp in winter. Any thoughts you have there might be very useful.

 

[cwstnsko]

I fully intended to lease a 2014 Nissan Leaf SV. I took a test drive one evening and arranged a follow up with the salesman a few days later to talk numbers and likely reach a deal. I went searching for a Ford Focus Electric locally, just so I could buy the Leaf with the confidence that I had done my due diligence and considered at least one alternative before buying the Leaf. I expected to find that the FFE was not available locally, but to my surprise, there was 1 at my local Ford dealer (local Nissan dealer had 47 Leafs in stock) I stopped on my way home from work to check out the FFE and ended up buying it a few weeks later.

I follow both MNL and MFE forums and they both have a fair bit of noise about issues and concerns

Although I think either car would have served me well in my intended use, I prefer subtlety of the FFE over the uniqueness of the Leaf. With the price of the FFE and the Leaf SV being virtually identical, other than the styling there were only a handful of distinguishing traits.

Price - no difference for the model I wanted - no advantage
Styling - personal preference, but for me, advantage FFE
Space - FFE suffers from battery encroachment that Leaf does not - advantage Leaf
Driving position - Leaf has no telescoping wheel and headrests lack the fore-aft adjustability of the FFE - advantage FFE
Climate control - 2013+ Leaf has heat pump heater - advantage Leaf
Range - Range is very similar, slight advantage to Leaf because of heat pump.
Battery - Leaf battery air cooled, FFE has active Thermal management of battery - I live in cool PNW, slight advantage FFE
Charging - Leaf SV has DC quick charge available for extra $$$$ - slight advantage to Leaf
Driving normalcy - I can comfortably let my wife or daughter drive the FFE without any concern for "learning curve" - slight advantage FFE.

The 2 cars are fairly evenly matched, if I lived in a hotter climate, the FFE would have slightly more of an advantage. If I were buying rather than leasing, the Leaf's 120V EVSE could have been upgraded to acceptable charging capability for less than my LCS-25 cost.

I love my FFE, but no more than my friends that have Leafs love their Leafs. We all love the EV driving experience as compared to an ICE.

 

[braineo]

iMiev road quality depends on your roads. It iis rougher than the Leaf, but similar to cheaper cars out there. Stability on ice and snow is exceptional, no problem during icepocalypse in Atlanta. No issues with build quality. A/C is better. 3.3kw charger is puny. My next EV will have a minimum of 6.6kw, otherwise L2 becomes not a charging option on the road. I was able to get a fully loaded 2012 for $19 before tax credits. if I were you I would negotiate the FFE all the way to ridiculous territory due to lack of QC option and then steal it.

 

[RonDawg]

Driving normalcy - I can comfortably let my wife or daughter drive the FFE without any concern for "learning curve" - slight advantage FFE.

Other than the hockey puck shifter, I'm not sure what "learning curve" there is with a Leaf that also isn't present with other EVs (particularly remembering to plug in the car after you're done using it for the day).

 

[RonDawg]

I was able to get a fully loaded 2012 for $19 before tax credits.

I knew Mitsubishi USA was heavily discounting the 2012's, but at $19 each I would have bought out their entire remaining stock :lol:

 

[RegGuheert]

I love my FFE, but no more than my friends that have Leafs love their Leafs. We all love the EV driving experience as compared to an ICE.

That was a very nice, concise review! Thanks!

 

[braineo]

I was able to get a fully loaded 2012 for $19 before tax credits.

I knew Mitsubishi USA was heavily discounting the 2012's, but at $19 each I would have bought out their entire remaining stock :lol:

it was the last one left, charged on my cc and had it shipped to my state. I forgot to mention the 'k' after the 19. $12.5 tax credits.... do the math ;-)