EVS comes back to LA for 2012

[Boomer23]

...AC Propulsion and FLUX Power were some of the battery makers on display...

AC propulsion is now a "battery maker"?
What were they showing there?

Traditionally they were doing drivetrains (AC-150) and vehicle conversions (eBox).

Okay, you got me. It's late and I was distracted by remembering the "personnel" at the FLUX stand. I'll edit.

 

[TNleaf]

I have gone through the full exhibitor list. Here are my priority booths to visit, not listed by priority. I am probably more interested in QC than the average.

QC relevant or product:
ABB B.V.
AV
Combined Charging System
Coulomb
Delta Electronics (according to 91040)
Ecotality
EDTA/GoElectricDrive
Efacec (350Green)
ElCon Chargers
Fuji
IES Synergy (CHAdemo)

Plugless charging:
Evatran
Qualcomm Halo

Concept EV
Nissan/Infinity

Public Data
UC Davis Institute of Transportation Studies

Have I missed some sights high priority for others ?

Schneider Electric has their EVSE and their DC Quick Charger on display. I'd like to see some photos of it (been searching on their twitter for some more). If you get a chance to stop by their booth, post some pictures, please!

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2630&start=330#p195593" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Randy]

To add to what's already been posted....

I was speaking with a gentleman at the Aerovironment booth and right across the way was the Nissan / Sumitomo DC Fast charging station that was previously announced to be sold for approximnately $10K...

Since AV is going to be the distributor for the Nissan charging station, I asked about pricing. Long story short, he said that the $10K price is not correct. The indoor version will be selling for about $15K and the outdoor version will be about $25K. Definitive pricing has not been formally announced yet, but those were his estimates...

 

[baronvonshush]

Great summary. Unfortunately we didn't see you there, but we did briefly run into JeremyW and tbleakne. Definitely enjoyed the show, and driving several other vehicles really confirmed that we made a great choice with the LEAF. I don't think I'd consider any one of the cars we drove over the LEAF, at least based on the test drives. Of course, several were not available to drive (Infiniti, BMW, Volkswagen, Honda Fit) so no idea on those. Also disappointed that Tesla seemed to be a no-show.

That SAE QC Combo Plug display was impressive in the number of QC manufacturers that were shown. The most exciting thing that I heard all day was a comment from one of the BMW techs that at least three QC makers have said that they will make a charger with both CHAdeMO and SAE QC plugs. These included ABB, AV and Eaton. If this dual plug solution turns out to be common, we might find that there is a solution for the standards issue. It's not a trivial thing, of course, to include both charging standards in one box. A rep from Fuji told me that the internal component requirements are different for each standard, beyond software and, of course, the plugs and cables.

Yes, this was very encouraging to see. Based on all I'd read here, my impression was that the SAE connector was an unwieldy frankenstein plug that was horrible compared to CHAdeMO, and whose very purpose for existence was to kill CHAdeMO. After 5 minutes of talking to the BMW reps about the SAE plug, the impression was 180 degrees different. It actually makes a lot of sense - vehicles with the SAE plug only need to have one port, unlike ours, since DC quick charge just adds a couple of extra connections below the standard J1772. It didn't seem unwieldly at all, certainly no more so than CHAdeMO.

The best part was seeing and hearing about the dual plug units. As long as future units go this way, we have nothing to worry about. I snapped some pictures of the EFACEC unit with dual plugs, and also spoke with an Eaton rep who said their future units would feature both plugs. He didn't go into the technical challenges, but implied that the bulk of the cost would be in installation of the utility lines anyway, so no reason for them not to include both.

I have over 30 other photos from the show on Facebook (you shouldn't need an account to view them). My comments there are geared towards my friends and family who aren't familiar with EVs...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.421479097870593.101754.100000255198441&type=1&l=ac6ba42725" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

I spend a number of minutes at the connector demo booth where a number of people were playing with them, plugging it in and disconnecting it, hefting it, etc... The consensus of opinion from them was that the connection and disconnection force was too high and that, coupled with the higher weight and much thicker cable (among other things, there are 2 gauge wires in it), would be a serious problem for many of the more mature crowd whose motor capabilities are not the same as 40 somethings. Even my wife, who does not fall in to any of those categories found it very hard to connect and disconnect and made the same comments. The guy in the booth clearly had heard all this many times and was very defensive and annoyed about it... That being said, after talking to many people at many booths, it seems clear that this is the way that QC is likely going to ultimately go for most manufacturers, like it or not...

Based on all I'd read here, my impression was that the SAE connector was an unwieldy frankenstein plug that was horrible compared to CHAdeMO, and whose very purpose for existence was to kill CHAdeMO.

 

[TRONZ]

That combo unit is awesome! Alot of us called this solution six months ago in other threads. Funny to actually see one built. Now if they would just build a dual J1772 unit for a double garage, I would finally buy a home L2 unit.

 

[rumpole]

Is there any way someone going to EVS 26 could get a picture of the SAE connector next to the Chademo connector? Since they are on the same Efacec unit, it should be a simple matter.

 

[tbleakne]

My comments on the SAE connector at the SAE booth:

I agree it is not that imposing in size when you actually handle it. It is smaller and lighter than the CHAdemo connectors I have used on the Eaton. However, the cable is somewhat heavier than the CHAdemo. I was told it uses gauge 2 power conductors and gauge 6 ground, but it does all signaling over the J1772-compatible pins, saving on these small conductors and pins. The maximum current rating of SAE apparently is higher than the 125A for 50kW CHAdemo. Depending upon the cable length, it may prove somewhat awkward for a petite person to handle.

I did not have difficulty inserting the plug into the receptacle on the Active-E. It snaps in and the locking button pops out. However, I had considerable difficulty removing the receptacle. I had to push down hard on the locking button, and wiggle the plug forcibly. This prototype unit used a hard fiber type material that tended to stick to the mating receptacle. Perhaps the production units will have better finish and work smoother. In this version it is not easier to handle than CHAdemo, but the lack of a lever is probably less confusing for many people, although I liked the low force required with the single lever.

The combined A/C-D/C receptacle on the car does take less room than J1772 + CHAdemo.

REMA (separate booth), claimed to be the main supplier of the SAE plug (hardware only, no software).

CHAdemo did NOT have a booth at the show, which says quite a bit in my opinion.

 

[gbarry42]

Using a bit of cut-and-pastery, we get a comparison, though only from the backsides.

 

[Valdemar]

I stopped by on Sunday before closing. Seeing at least 3 times more L3 chargers on the show floor than we have total in SoCal made me sad and angry at the same time One was working outside charging demo Leafs, they allowed me to charge on the way out.

 

[hill]

Great summary. Unfortunately we didn't see you there, but we did briefly run into JeremyW and tbleakne. Definitely enjoyed the show, and driving several other vehicles really confirmed that we made a great choice with the LEAF. I don't think I'd consider any one of the cars we drove over the LEAF, at least based on the test drives. Of course, several were not available to drive (Infiniti, BMW, Volkswagen, Honda Fit) so no idea on those. Also disappointed that Tesla seemed to be a no-show.

That SAE QC Combo Plug display was impressive in the number of QC manufacturers that were shown. The most exciting thing that I heard all day was a comment from one of the BMW techs that at least three QC makers have said that they will make a charger with both CHAdeMO and SAE QC plugs. These included ABB, AV and Eaton. If this dual plug solution turns out to be common, we might find that there is a solution for the standards issue. It's not a trivial thing, of course, to include both charging standards in one box. A rep from Fuji told me that the internal component requirements are different for each standard, beyond software and, of course, the plugs and cables.

Yes, this was very encouraging to see. Based on all I'd read here, my impression was that the SAE connector was an unwieldy frankenstein plug that was horrible compared to CHAdeMO, and whose very purpose for existence was to kill CHAdeMO. After 5 minutes of talking to the BMW reps about the SAE plug, the impression was 180 degrees different. It actually makes a lot of sense - vehicles with the SAE plug only need to have one port, unlike ours, since DC quick charge just adds a couple of extra connections below the standard J1772. It didn't seem unwieldly at all, certainly no more so than CHAdeMO.

The best part was seeing and hearing about the dual plug units. As long as future units go this way, we have nothing to worry about. I snapped some pictures of the EFACEC unit with dual plugs, and also spoke with an Eaton rep who said their future units would feature both plugs. He didn't go into the technical challenges, but implied that the bulk of the cost would be in installation of the utility lines anyway, so no reason for them not to include both.

I have over 30 other photos from the show on Facebook (you shouldn't need an account to view them). My comments there are geared towards my friends and family who aren't familiar with EVs...
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.421479097870593.101754.100000255198441&type=1&l=ac6ba42725" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm working on a marketing idea foe the SAE idea:

"Franken-Plug ... The best QC plug - designed to slow Chademo ... & designed for nobody". :lol:

 

[tbleakne]

Some photos to supplement others:

At SAE area, Eaton QC, with Chargepoint Logo, considerably larger than efacec, used by 350Green.

Delta QC. As large as Eaton

Fuji QC, used by Chargepoint. 25 kW, but also large. It has two 12 kW power modules. Price I heard was $25K.

One 12 kW Fuji power module by itself. 40 lbs. Could be candidate for portable QC, except it requires 3-phase.

ABB Charger, used by Blink, with double hose. I like efficiency of setting up next car while current car is charging. You can leave area, knowing your car will begin charging as soon as current car is done. Not terribly important right now, with cars scarce, but this feature could become important later.

ABB had their own booth. They seem to be a large company. Hopefully their product will be reliable, even when working with a unreliable Blink network.

Nissan/Sumitomo QC. Contrary to another report in this thread, I clearly heard the Nissan rep say this unit's price for external version was $13K. I believe the higher $25K price mentioned was his estimate of total including a basic installation. Smallest 50 kW unit with best price.

Portable 25 kW QC from French company, Elcon. Not configured for US power. Approximately same form factor as Andromeda, but half the power.

The on-board 3.3 kW charger in 2011 and 2012 Leafs, exhibited by the manufacturer, whose name I did not record. They do NOT have the contract for the 6.6 kW charger for 2013.

Aerovironment had our old friend EV-1. Nice touch.

From past to future: Segway-like 2-wheeler:

Final comment: Asked at 350green booth about deployment plans in southern california. No useful response. Only booth where I felt poor vibes.

 

[TomT]

+1

I believe they feel their days are numbered, at least in the U.S...

CHAdemo did NOT have a booth at the show, which says quite a bit in my opinion.

 

[Boomer23]

The on-board 3.3 kW charger in 2011 and 2012 Leafs, exhibited by the manufacturer, whose name I did not record. They do NOT have the contract for the 6.6 kW charger for 2013.

That mfr was Nichicon.

 

[hill]

While stopping by the AV booth, I asked their rep when will they start installing QC's in So Cal. Surprisingly, they said, "in just a few month" ... but wouldn't be more specific ... not like it'd be any more or less reliable if he HAD specifically given a week or month or location.
:?

 

[TRONZ]

While stopping by the AV booth, I asked their rep when will they start installing QC's in So Cal. Surprisingly, they said, "in just a few month" ... but wouldn't be more specific ... not like it'd be any more or less reliable if he HAD specifically given a week or month or location.
:?

This would be the Ecotality effect. Hopefully it will fade for us. At least AV is aligned with Nissan so this gives them street cred.

BTW everyone, awesome pics! Makes me feel like I was there. Thanks for sharing!

 

[TonyWilliams]

In this version it is not easier to handle than CHAdemo, but the lack of a lever is probably less confusing for many people, although I liked the low force required with the single lever

The funky lever on the Yazaki nozzle is NOT a ChaDeMo requirement. There are now several far lighter and easier to use nozzles without any levers.

 

[tbleakne]

At the Active-E demo area of the SAE booth I got into a bit of a discussion with someone significant from BMW, possibly their EV sales director ? I believe Boomer23 and keiJidosha had met him elsewhere. He was talking about how the i3 will utilize carbon fiber to save weight compared to the Active-E. When he said that they were going to use this investment to downsize the battery to the point where the range was no more than 100 miles, possibly to 28 kWh or less, I lost it. I understand that BMW wamts to keep the weight down to enhance performance, but he honestly seemed surprised that someone would want more than 100 miles range.

I really envy the range and charging speed that keiJidosha achieved with his Mini-e with its 36 kWh battery. My expectation and vision all along with the LEAF was that my next EV would match the Mini-e on range. I don't need the range of a Tesla Roadster, but I would like to be able to drive 110 or 120 miles without extreme measures, get a 25 kW QC while stopping for a leisurely lunch of an hour or a little more, and then continue on for another 100+ miles before stopping at a motel where I could get a full L2 charge over-night. Short out-of-town trips without wasted time, enabled by a combination of faster L2, moderate L3, and a 32-36 kWh battery.

The depressing message I heard at this show was that neither Nissan, with its Infinity EV, nor BMW with its i3 were likely to fulfill my vision. I would have to settle for a CODA or possibly a BYD.

 

[tbleakne]

While stopping by the AV booth, I asked their rep when will they start installing QC's in So Cal. Surprisingly, they said, "in just a few month" ... but wouldn't be more specific ... not like it'd be any more or less reliable if he HAD specifically given a week or month or location.
:?

Whether we can trust this statement partly depends upon their business model. If he meant that he will be able to deliver units to willing buyers in a few months, I could believe that might be true, even given the broken promises from Nissan the last few months. However, actually installing QCs requires buyers and cooperative host locations, both of which could be quite scarce.

 

[Boomer23]

At the Active-E demo area of the SAE booth I got into a bit of a discussion with someone significant from BMW, possibly their EV sales director ? I believe Boomer23 and keiJidosha had met him elsewhere. He was talking about how the i3 will utilize carbon fiber to save weight compared to the Active-E. When he said that they were going to use this investment to downsize the battery to the point where the range was no more than 100 miles, possibly to 28 kWh or less, I lost it. I understand that BMW wamts to keep the weight down to enhance performance, but he honestly seemed surprised that someone would want more than 100 miles range.

Yes, I found that depressing as well, but I wasn't too surprised since I had read about the i3 in some detail. The fellow we were speaking with was Rich Steinberg, BMW Manager of Electric Vehicle Sales and Strategy, so a very highly placed guy for strategy for BMW. But more depressing is that your recollection of a 28 kWh battery was optimistic. Rich actually said "18 to 20 kWh" as I recall. The link below will take you to an article on Plug In Cars that reports on a talk with Rich in which he talks about using the lightness of carbon fiber to reduce the need for a larger pack. The article states 22 kWh, which I've also read on fan blogs. Hopefully that figure is accurate. The car is said to weigh about 500 lbs less than the LEAF and aerodynamics will hopefully be better, so perhaps we can expect a real 100 miles at realistic speeds.

http://www.plugincars.com/bmw-i3/price" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My recollection, though, is that Rich was asking both of us why we would want QC, not why we would want more range. Both of us want QC because we'd like to be able to travel further without having to wait hours for a charge. Rich's answer is the small range extender engine that will be optional on the i3. You said that you don't want to burn gas, so that's not for you. I said that I might be interested in a range extender for occasional use, just so that I could get further without having to find a charging station.