Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.GetOffYourGas said:You will always choose EV for local driving and always choose ICE for long distance.
Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.GetOffYourGas said:You will always choose EV for local driving and always choose ICE for long distance.
SageBrush said:Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.GetOffYourGas said:You will always choose EV for local driving and always choose ICE for long distance.
Convenience and Fuel cost.GetOffYourGas said:SageBrush said:Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.GetOffYourGas said:You will always choose EV for local driving and always choose ICE for long distance.
Well, based on your assumptions (that the majority is fuel agnostic, and only cares about convenience), that's the logical conclusion. But the same can be said for Tesla, since a gas car will be much more convenient than a Tesla for road trips in the foreseeable future.
I just disagree with your assumption, based in part on Tesla's success.
SageBrush said:Convenience and Fuel cost.GetOffYourGas said:SageBrush said:Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.
Well, based on your assumptions (that the majority is fuel agnostic, and only cares about convenience), that's the logical conclusion. But the same can be said for Tesla, since a gas car will be much more convenient than a Tesla for road trips in the foreseeable future.
I just disagree with your assumption, based in part on Tesla's success.
You are right that the first x miles of battery is from the origin but Americans do not think that way when calculating fuel costs. With no small amount of difficulty they figure out the marginal cost per mile. Tesla Model 3 owners know they charge at ~ 3 cents a mile * away from home (varies by state, etc.) Non Tesla cars using the EA network will figure out that it costs them over 10 - 13 cents a mile. The Tesla success is built on large batteries, long range, and fast, convenient and cheap charging. Non Teslas on the EA network share exactly none of those attributes.
A future CCS car that covers 300+ miles of highway driving and actually charges at 150 kW could replicate the Tesla success if the charging network was Tesla like in its distribution, availability and reliability. For now and the for-seeable future the EA network is still-born.
A Tesla is remarkably convenient to drive away from home. I think you have to own one to really appreciate how advanced they are over the 'competition.' E.g., my wife and I just drove ~ 250 miles this morning to our home in the neighboring state. I started out with a bit less than a full charge and saw on the car map that the car expected me to arrive with 18% charge remaining. We have a Supercharger about 100 miles into the trip but the car did not change its estimate after 100 miles so we skipped the charger ... and arrived with 17% remaining. All my experiences thus far have been just as accurate. I don't bother to plan trips anymore, I just get in and drive and if the car tells me to stop for a charge, I do so. That has happened once since getting the car. It was a 15 minute charge, finished by the time we had gotten out for some stretching and bio breaks.
I'm sure exceptions exist, but normal people who have the sense to take occasional breaks from driving and sitting during long trips do not wait for the car for the first ~ 600 miles of driving a day. That is the Tesla experience in cars that have the Model 3 LR range or better.
*
As one example from my experience that has mostly been in NM:
I average 4.5 miles a kWh during highway driving at 67 mph and average 1.5 kWh a minute during a recharge at a Supercharger.
$0.22/(1.5*4.5) = 3.26 cents a mile to charge on the road.
Ouch.paulgipe said:That charge, BTW, cost us $425 (Westin Monache Resort), about the cost of a gasser for the trip. But the valet did plug the car in as promised and it did charge.
There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).SageBrush said:Convenience and Fuel cost.GetOffYourGas said:SageBrush said:Yep if we are talking about EVs that are not Tesla, which is why I suspect the EA installed network will be a white elephant.
Well, based on your assumptions (that the majority is fuel agnostic, and only cares about convenience), that's the logical conclusion. But the same can be said for Tesla, since a gas car will be much more convenient than a Tesla for road trips in the foreseeable future.
I just disagree with your assumption, based in part on Tesla's success.
You are right that the first x miles of battery is from the origin but Americans do not think that way when calculating fuel costs. With no small amount of difficulty they figure out the marginal cost per mile. Tesla Model 3 owners know they charge at ~ 3 cents a mile * away from home (varies by state, etc.) Non Tesla cars using the EA network will figure out that it costs them over 10 - 13 cents a mile. The Tesla success is built on large batteries, long range, and fast, convenient and cheap charging. Non Teslas on the EA network share exactly none of those attributes.
A future CCS car that covers 300+ miles of highway driving and actually charges at 150 kW could replicate the Tesla success if the charging network was Tesla like in its distribution, availability and reliability. For now and the for-seeable future the EA network is still-born.<snip>
GRA said:There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).
SageBrush said:Ouch.paulgipe said:That charge, BTW, cost us $425 (Westin Monache Resort), about the cost of a gasser for the trip. But the valet did plug the car in as promised and it did charge.
I haven't used public destination chargers yet but they also tend to live at hotels for Tesla. One upside is that my Model 3 LR can accept up to 48 Amps L2 charging which works out to ~ 45 miles an hour so a two hour stop would probably be enough to reach a Supercharger even in underserved areas. That kind of time window could be served by a visit to the hotel restaurant instead of an overnight stay and would be much less expensive.
At this stage of the Supercharger network (let alone with future expansion) I may never use a public destination L2 charger but I appreciate it being present as a plan 'B'
100kW charging for the i-Pace, at least initially. High-rate QC infrastructure is of course lacking compared to Tesla now, just as the Model S lacked high-rate charging infrastructure when it was introduced six years ago - that's what EA is going to provide. Range is down compared to the Model S85-100 or 3LR but comparable to the S/X 75D and better than the 3SR. Efficiency is undoubtedly less, surprisingly so (15kWh extra for the same range as the S/X 75D), but ride/handling are better judging by reviews, as is much of the driver interface, and it doesn't have gimmicky doors that rpevent the roof from being used for loads; in fact it's been getting rave reviews similar to those for the S when that was introduced.Evoforce said:The I-pace is lacking in charging speed, charging infrastructure, range and efficiency compared to Tesla. The other car mentioned, I do not have the facts to compare.
The CCS network WAS improving at a snail's pace, but that's no longer the case, as EA must build the stations on time or be penalized.SageBrush said:The CCS network is improving at a snails pace and the pricing is sure to be a barrier to widespread use.
As for cars, I'm not holding my breath. E.g. the much hyped by media for hire i-Pace from Jag gets "up to 240 miles range" on the European WLTP. Anyone care to guess what that will be at normative USA driving speeds ? It *starts* at $70k and is currently outfitted with a 50 kW DC fast charging capability. The per mile consumption at travel speeds will be at least ~ 1.6x that of the Model 3, so the travel speed will equate to 32 kW DC fast charging or about 1/4 that of the Model 3.
Meh. Double Meh. Triple Meh
It ends up being a local car for the mink coat crowd.
https://insideevs.com/heres-how-far-the-jaguar-i-pace-can-go-on-single-charge/Here’s How Far The Jaguar I-Pace Can Go On Single Charge
Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.palmermd said:GRA said:There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).
FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
GRA said:Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.palmermd said:GRA said:There will be at least two non-Tesla BEVs this year (i-Pace and e-Tron Quattro) that will have large batteries and long range, with more to come; the only thing they lack is cheap (non-profit) charging. EA's highway network will have 4-10 QCs per site, with at least 150kW per CCS connector and some going up to 350kW (not that any current or soon to arrive [Taycan] BEV can go over 280kW).
FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
FF's history doesn't inspire confidence. If they produce, great, but I'm not holding my breath until they're a lot closer to putting cars on sale.palmermd said:Don't be fooled by all the negative media surrounding evs. They are building cars as we speak.GRA said:Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.palmermd said:FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
As of 8/28/2018 FF has finished building ONE pre-production car.palmermd said:GRA said:Which assumes that Faraday Future will have a real product available at some point. To date there's little reason to count on that.palmermd said:FF91 can take it and will be available Q1 2019.
Don't be fooled by all the negative media surrounding evs. They are building cars as we speak.
Enter your email address to join: