Either the BEST or the WORST car ever made

[NotEZbeingGreen]

So, I'm 3 weeks into a love/hate relationship with the 2013SV. Part of the problem is I oversold myself, and made some basic assumptions (we all know what happens when we assume). But here's my predicament, please address the number below if you can help w/ advice. These are mostly centered around range:

RANGE
1) You have 84 miles of range, except don't charge it above 80%, or use it below 20% percent. 50 mile effective range
a) or use the heat -10miles of range
b) snow tires -5 miles of range (it does drive well in snow)
c) every time you hit the gas to pass -7 miles
d) Interstate is not advised
e) -10 miles in cold weather (though maybe this is a wash b/c it gets better than advertised mileage in moderate temps?)

I get 45 miles effectively (it's been pretty cold), but I drive like a GRANNY, coasting to every red light and stop sign to achieve this. (on the plus side, i'm a VERY safe driver now!) I get 3.8miles/KW based off the dashboard, so in ideal conditions I'd get 54 miles of range = (60% x (3.8x24).


2) You can remote start climate control from an app....except app doesn't work. This was a big selling point for me, and I've spent hours on two different apps, but can't get Nissan to accept the VIN ("LEAF Manager" and "Nissan Connect"). Nissan Connect says I'm not eligible, Leaf manager seems to reject the VIN. I'd buy the pro version if it will solve the issue?

3) I'd planned on driving it to the airport (55 miles one way), but have no guaranteed and cost effective way of charging there (it's $6 per day at off site parking and I'm not willing to risk getting a charging spot at DIA parking)

4) Chademo is FAST and FREE at dealerships, just don't use it or you'll degrade the batteries.

5) charging stations are literally EVERYWHERE here in the Boulder/Denver area, but they are highly fragmented in memberships, card requirements, some overpriced (Walgreens). I really haven't found anything realistically usable except for Chademo at dealerships (see #4)

6) The cars seem to be depreciating at $100/month, negating and savings on gas. I took advantage of this, but am also wondering who's going to buy a car with an effective range of 50miles or less in a couple of years? Or are we hitting the bottom and it will start to flatten out? i.e. when the 200 mile leaf is out and the 238 mile Bolt is out.

I love the concept and performance of the car...but maybe just need some advice from the community.

 

[cwerdna]

4) Chademo is FAST and FREE at dealerships, just don't use it or you'll degrade the batteries.

It isn’t free at any dealers in my area anymore. The one I used to use for free transitioned to being paid. The one at the dealer I leased my ’13 Leaf SV w/both packages from also went to paid long ago. I used theirs 0 times since it was nowhere near me nor on paths I’d normally take my Leaf.

(I’ve never been eligible for Nissan No Charge to Charge. The program began after I leased and is only good for 2 years anyway. The used ’13 Leaf I bought is a month older than the leased one, so also no NCTC.)

And, my only Leaf, the aforementioned used one doesn't have CHAdeMO. Not worth it to me to pay $1K to $1.5K extra for a car with the inlet (when I was in the market) for the privilege of paying more to charge than it costs to fuel my Prius. The other 2 free CHAdeMO chargers I used before also became paid on Blink's network, which charges 59 cents/kWh for members here.

Re: degradation from DC FCing, there have been studies involving the Leaf showing that the effect is apparently minimal.

2) You can remote start climate control from an app....except app doesn't work. This was a big selling point for me, and I've spent hours on two different apps, but can't get Nissan to accept the VIN ("LEAF Manager" and "Nissan Connect"). Nissan Connect says I'm not eligible, Leaf manager seems to reject the VIN. I'd buy the pro version if it will solve the issue?

If the TCU on the car wasn't upgraded to one with a 3G radio, it likely won't ever work since AT&T shut down 2G service (officially after 12/31/16). It is $199 to upgrade it to one with a 3G radio. I haven't done it yet. NissanConnect and all its benefits quit working for me around 1st week of Jan 2017.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=21573 is one of several threads on this.

Sounds like a sizeable % of folks have trouble after the upgrade. Waiting for the dealers and Nissan customer support to have more experience in troubleshooting/getting the process right.

 

[VitaminJ]

1) Charge to 100% and use til you get where you're going. Turtle will happen at about 3v per cell, damage theoretically won't happen until 2.5v, but the temperature of the battery greatly increases so that's the only reason why you wouldn't run it super low, but this time of year it's fine to run in the single digit % if you have to. Leaf Spy helps a lot to get the most out of your battery. If you are averaging 3.8mi/kwh then you are only using 11.8kwh of battery over 45 miles. If you have a decent condition battery you have at least 18kwh onboard (I have 21kwh) at 100% which is 68 miles at 3.8 miles/kwh. If you only use 17kwh, which will leave you above 10% at the end of your journey, you will still get 64 miles.

In warmer temps without heater you will probably get over 5 mi/kwh driving how you do now.

2) Do you have the new 3G TCU? If not it's $199 go to your local Nissan dealer. Also go to the Nissan Connect website, click support, do a chat and tell them you bought a used Leaf and want to change ownership records. You will have to fax or email them some proof. Takes 10 minutes. You will be connected after that.

3) There is CHAdeMO and L2 6.6 miles from DIA. Use Plugshare.

4) Only if the battery gets too hot. There are taxis in Norway with better stats than half the "20-80%" guys on this forum with more QCs than they have L2 charges.

5) I just got a membership to each, they are free to sign up and some places give you the first hour free also.

6) If you just bought this car then you shouldn't be complaining about depreciation, you should be celebrating.

 

[craig]

1: In decent weather, I can drive 100 miles on a full charge in my 2014 S Leaf. That leaves me at about 6% SOC, so I don't do it on purpose.
I charge to 100% all the time. I have 24k on the car, and twelve bars.
a-e: You are right, it drives great with snow tires. We are getting buried, and I have never been stuck.
Yeah, range goes down in the winter: I get about 65 miles using the heater and defroster as needed.

I live in the city, and seldom go far from it: the Leaf is perfect for 99% of my needs.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Yes, do drive it below the first "low battery" warning. If you aren't using LeafSpy, the second LB warning (LBW) at about 7-9 miles left is the place to plan on stopping, as you will lose the state of charge display shortly thereafter. So you have about 8 miles more range than you were thinking, plus if you charge to 100% and let it fully equalize in Winter instead of charging to 80%, that's about another 14 miles. Just don't leave it at 100% for more than a few hours if you can help it. Te trick to driving a Leaf in Winter is to:

A: Know how far the car can really go under a specific set of circumstances, like "a drive to work when it's 10F outside."

B: Know how to economize without sacrificing all heat. That means setting the fan on Low or 2, temp to either 70F or 90F (Low only) vent to either Floor+Defrost or Floor Only (which will also defrost a bit, and let you use partial Recirculate).

 

[NotEZbeingGreen]

1) Charge to 100% and use til you get where you're going.

OK, I assume you're not in the camp that this degrades the battery? Or only do this in cold weather?

Turtle will happen at about 3v per cell, damage theoretically won't happen until 2.5v, but the temperature of the battery greatly increases so that's the only reason why you wouldn't run it super low, but this time of year it's fine to run in the single digit % if you have to.

OK, good to know. Thanks

Leaf Spy helps a lot to get the most out of your battery. If you are averaging 3.8mi/kwh then you are only using 11.8kwh of battery over 45 miles. If you have a decent condition battery you have at least 18kwh onboard (I have 21kwh) at 100% which is 68 miles at 3.8 miles/kwh. If you only use 17kwh, which will leave you above 10% at the end of your journey, you will still get 64 miles.

OK, I downloaded Leaf Spy Lite, but you're recommending the full paid version? If so, Leaf Spy or Leaf Spy Pro?

In warmer temps without heater you will probably get over 5 mi/kwh driving how you do now.

This is good news Then in the Summer I could get to Denver and back from Boulder, and to the airport (and mayyybe back if I drive slow and steady...

2) Do you have the new 3G TCU? If not it's $199 go to your local Nissan dealer. Also go to the Nissan Connect website, click support, do a chat and tell them you bought a used Leaf and want to change ownership records. You will have to fax or email them some proof. Takes 10 minutes. You will be connected after that.

DONE! THanks.

3) There is CHAdeMO and L2 6.6 miles from DIA. Use Plugshare.

OK, I see Canopy has one. Do you have to park there at $6 extra per day to use Chademo? DYK? I don't mind paying for Chademo, but not worth it if I have to pay for covered parking for the duration of the trip.

4) Only if the battery gets too hot. There are taxis in Norway with better stats than half the "20-80%" guys on this forum with more QCs than they have L2 charges.

Interesting. Too hot meaning some bad practice, or 90+ degree days?

6) If you just bought this car then you shouldn't be complaining about depreciation, you should be celebrating.

Sorta. From this point forward, I save $100/mo on gas/maint and lose $100 on depreciation. This car cannot do anything my trade in car could not do. But it does have half the emissions

 

[NotEZbeingGreen]

fully equalize

equalize?

in Winter instead of charging to 80%, that's about another 14 miles. Just don't leave it at 100% for more than a few hours

Meaning, you should drive it soon after it hits 100% charge?

setting the fan on Low or 2, temp to either 70F or 90F (Low only) vent to either Floor+Defrost or Floor Only (which will also defrost a bit, and let you use partial Recirculate).

Good thought, thanks. I've just been using the seat warmers, but noticed it gets pretty COLD in the cabin.

 

[VitaminJ]

For DIA I would just hit the CHAdeMO on my way to the flight, just plan an arriving 15 minutes earlier than you already are and fill up to 70-80%, then park wherever you normally park. When you land if that's not enough juice top up again. I'm not sure what the price is but probably $5.

I commute from Morrison to Boulder along 93, 70 miles round trip. I can do it all on a single charge last week when it was warmer without altering my habits from my ICE car. I got 4.2 to 4.7mi/kwh depending on traffic. This week I drive like a granny and I usually add 10-20% charge in Boulder...but I arrive home with 15-25% so maybe I can still do it roundtrip, I get 3.8 mi/kwh. Pretty sure it's all due to the heater because I just run it nonstop all the way!

I think people are too paranoid about 0% and 100%, Nissan was already very paranoid and wrote the software so you can't even get it completely 100% nor completely 0% if you tried. Use the battery, that's the whole point of the car! It has a battery! I don't know summer temperatures yet, Leaf Spy will tell you your battery temp. I QCed 3 times in the Springs and drove 50+ miles in between each time and my battery went from 40F to 80F by the end so I can imagine in the summer if it starts at 90F ambient and then you drive and QC and drive and QC it could climb and climb and climb.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

4) Only if the battery gets too hot. There are taxis in Norway with better stats than half the "20-80%" guys on this forum with more QCs than they have L2 charges.

Interesting. Too hot meaning some bad practice, or 90+ degree days?

I use the battery temperature bars. I try not to charge if there are more than 6 bars lit up. That's not an option in Arizona, but I would guess for you it means charging overnight during the summer.

fully equalize

equalize?

I believe he is referring to balancing the cells. The battery is composed of 96 (IIRC) individual cells. Due to manufacturing differences, the stronger and weaker cells end up charging/discharging slightly unevenly. The accumulation of this unbalance leads to far more stress on the weaker cells. Nissan provides a BMS (battery management system) which re-balances the cells. It seems to be far more effective when charging to 100%, although there is evidence that balancing happens whenever charging.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Charging to 100% is not harmful to the pack if the car is driven soon afterwards. Set a charge timer to have it finish charging an hour before you leave for work.

 

[DuncanCunningham]

Charging to 100% is not harmful to the pack if the car is driven soon afterwards. Set a charge timer to have it finish charging an hour before you leave for work.

+1

 

[Nagorak]

Frankly I wouldn't worry about damaging the pack. Don't be stupid about it, but if you need the range then you need the range. There's no point worrying about down the road if it means the car doesn't meet your requirements today. Ultimately you can always pay for a battery replacement 4-5 years down the road if the pack degrades too far, and you still want to drive the car.

Your car has already suffered the lions share of depreciation. 3 year old Leafs are already selling for the price of a 7-8 year old normal car. If you buy a 7-8 year old car then you don't expect it to have much residual value when you're done with it, the same goes for the Leaf. Presumably you got the car for a good price, so I'd just count on it having no value in 4-5 years.

If you do the math I think you'll see that with the lower price of the used Leaf, you come out no worse off with an end point of zero, than you do with a comparable gas car with an end point if say $5000, simply because the gas car is going to cost you at least that amount more up front.

 

[IBeLeaf2]

So, I'm 3 weeks into a love/hate relationship with the 2013SV. Part of the problem is I oversold myself, and made some basic assumptions (we all know what happens when we assume). But here's my predicament, please address the number below if you can help w/ advice. These are mostly centered around range:

RANGE
1) You have 84 miles of range, except don't charge it above 80%, or use it below 20% percent. 50 mile effective range

I'm in the "use the car" camp. I have never babied this or any other car. And, except in the case of totaling a Corolla once, , I keep them until 200K+miles. Never traded in a car! Don't let it run your life Just because it is an EV. I still have 12 bars at 52,000.

I always charge to 100%, use Chademo when it's needed, and leave it fully charged until I need it. I've been to VLB more times than I can remember, turtle 5 or 6 times, below turtle twice.
Look at the stats in my signature. Range loss hasn't been a problem for me.

My first turtle tow was also the first time I drove on slushy roads. Learned just how bad that is on range. 2nd time was a GoM lesson. One very cold day I was at VLB so stopped to charge at a 20A level 2 until I had 15 miles showing, then tried to drive the 8 miles home. Got a tow from a neighbor the last 1000' into my driveway.

Disclaimers: I live in Maine so 90-100° ambient doesn't happen often. I usually but not always charge at night or on weekends to use off peak rates. It seems there are a wide range of battery life experiences out there, mine may not be typical.

My no no's would be:
Heed the battery temp gauge, don't use Chademo if it's in the red or one bar below. Don't leave the car in ACC or Ready and walk away. Don't obsess over your battery life choices. And don't try to pass a Tesla on a hill to show off!

I get 45 miles effectively (it's been pretty cold), but I drive like a GRANNY, coasting to every red light and stop sign to achieve this. (on the plus side, i'm a VERY safe driver now!) I get 3.8miles/KW based off the dashboard, so in ideal conditions I'd get 54 miles of range = (60% x (3.8x24).

My dash says 80-110 typically when I first start out. Lower if the previous trip was all highway. I find the usable range is 60-85 miles depending on speed and heater use. Miles/kWh varies from 3.4 to 5 on a charge and 4.2 lifetime. And yes, I usually stick to the speed limit. As said in LeftieBiker's Tips & Tricks thread, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23297.

I've compared going 75 between Chademos and going 65. 65 is faster overall if you need several charges to get somewhere. (Like on my Maine to NJ trips) Only gain with 75 is more time to check email or nap while you charge. Using the Chademo to go from 20% to 70% seems to be most efficient time wise, if you can make that work on a trip.

5) charging stations are literally EVERYWHERE here in the Boulder/Denver area, but they are highly fragmented in memberships, card requirements, some overpriced (Walgreens). I really haven't found anything realistically usable except for Chademo at dealerships (see #4)

I do have to plan ahead if I am going somewhere new. There aren't many L3's around. But still, there are more now in key places. I haven't seen a fee at a dealer yet but the sometime conveniently located EVgo network is a rip off. $31.45 for 83 min. of charging on my last trip to Mass. I will take a different route next time. I use a level 2 at destination but only take the Leaf if L3 is an option along the way. Still waiting for 1 day EV trip to Canada to be possible. And I hope I live to see the "Where can I plug in" worry go the way of the gas can in the trunk.

 

[NotEZbeingGreen]

Frankly I wouldn't worry about damaging the pack. Don't be stupid about it, but if you need the range then you need the range. There's no point worrying about down the road if it means the car doesn't meet your requirements today. Ultimately you can always pay for a battery replacement 4-5 years down the road if the pack degrades too far, and you still want to drive the car.

True. Now that I've had it a few weeks it is a lot more comfortable (range anxiety goes away). Battery anxiety isn't as much of an issue. As you say it's a tool not a jewel.

just count on it having no value in 4-5 years.

If you do the math I think you'll see that with the lower price of the used Leaf, you come out no worse off with an end point of zero, than you do with a comparable gas car with an end point if say $5000

I think we're in agreement here. The leaf isn't a cost savings, just better for the environment. It's a lot more hassle than a gas car, but a pretty minor sacrifice for the greater good.

 

[NotEZbeingGreen]

I've compared going 75 between Chademos and going 65. 65 is faster overall if you need several charges to get somewhere. (Like on my Maine to NJ trips) Only gain with 75 is more time to check email or nap while you charge. Using the Chademo to go from 20% to 70% seems to be most efficient time wise, if you can make that work on a trip.

You're very brave, I would never go on a "trip" in it. What if someone is already charging where you want to charge (or more often, the charger is out of service)? Then you have to drive to different chargers in the area? Seems like a time suck, no? It's strictly a grocery getter and I'd like to be able to go to the airport and back (100 miles roundtrip)--which another poster helped me figure out.

5) charging stations are literally EVERYWHERE here in the Boulder/Denver area, but they are highly fragmented in memberships, card requirements, some overpriced (Walgreens). I really haven't found anything realistically usable except for Chademo at dealerships (see #4)

EVgo network is a rip off. $31.45 for 83 min. of charging on my last trip to Mass.

Yikes. OK, I tried to sign up for that one but there website doesn't work. Sounds like I'm better off.

Still waiting for 1 day EV trip to Canada to be possible. And I hope I live to see the "Where can I plug in" worry go the way of the gas can in the trunk.

It's likely possible now in a Bolt or a Tesla. Soon in the Leaf.