Does (D)rive and (R)everse seem backwards to you?

[ggodman]

Yes backwards but I also change the default look on Halo, so who knows?

 

[marccbr]

I've had the LEAF for a week and get confused every now and then. I would preffer they reverse the shifter, just my 2 cents.

 

[tps]

For example you wouldn't want a circuit breaker to turn on when you are repairing an outlet.

Not sure circuit breakers are a good example. In many panels, the breakers are mounted horizontally in two vertical columns. The on-off action of the left column is opposite the action of the right column.

Back to the LEAF shifter, it is the same as an automatic transmission. Although I learned to drive in a manual (a Renault), almost every other car I've owned since then has been automatic, so the Hertz LEAF seemed mostly natural to me when I drove it. (Except "park" took a little getting used to.)

 

[highcountryrider]

Now, with a whole 24 hours of experience , I haven't had any problems with the shifter,
except, like tps said, the PARK takes a moment to think. I still have to think about
the parking brake as well, oddly, as it works just like the Toyota - pull to engage.

And I haven't reached down to "restart" the LEAF after it "died" at the stoplight. :lol:

 

[aqn]

As with most electroinc standards (switches come to mind), up is on, down is off.

When I was in England in the late 70s, electrical switches are the reverse of what it is here in the U.S.: up is off, down is on. I don't know if it's still that way.

Years of safety studies have shown it's usually more dangerous to accidentally turn something on than turn something off and it's easier to drop something or lean on a switch and have it go down instead of up.

I can believe this claim, though it'd be nice to see credible references.

Most things has been designed a particular way and standards adopted for a reason. (Ever wonder why the hot water is on the left? Most people are right handed and it protects you from accidentally scalding yourself.) We might not always know the reason but there usually is some logic behind it.

A major factor in human-machine interface is also familiarity with like concepts. Safety is important, so is familiarity.

Which brings me to DeaneG's point:

My favorite backwards control is the e-brake flapper? Pull on it to engage - why not push like any other electronic control. Pulling a lever to activate something is so 1903.

The parking brake is "up for engaged" because that is how a hand-operated parking brake works in every car: pull up to engage. If it was reversed, I'd really be confused! Another reason for that behavior in the LEAF's case is because the parking brake "lever" is located where a "traditional" parking brake lever is located. If it was a push switch on the dash, then I would agree that "push to engage" makes sense.

Edit: figured it out - so the loose puppy in the front seat won't step on the e-brake control and launch the car into a tailslide.

Though I dare say, if one drives with a "loose puppy in the front seat", one has a few other things to be concerned about! One wouldn't drive with a "loose baby in the front seat"; why drive with a loose puppy?

 

[planet4ever]

Edit: figured it out - so the loose puppy in the front seat won't step on the e-brake control and launch the car into a tailslide.

True story: Yesterday while we were on the freeway my wife forgot and pulled up on the e-brake lever while trying to open the console storage space. Red lights flashed on the dash, and the car "stalled", i.e. acted as if I had taken my foot off the go-pedal, until she released the lever, then everything went back to normal. Actually, I was running on cruise control, so it was as if I had hit the Cancel switch followed by the Resume switch. Definitely no skid marks or loss of control. Did she push the lever down to cancel the brake? I guess anything is possible, but I seriously doubt it.

Ray

 

[aqn]

Edit: figured it out - so the loose puppy in the front seat won't step on the e-brake control and launch the car into a tailslide.

True story: Yesterday while we were on the freeway my wife forgot and pulled up on the e-brake lever while trying to open the console storage space. Red lights flashed on the dash, and the car "stalled", i.e. acted as if I had taken my foot off the go-pedal, until she released the lever, then everything went back to normal. Actually, I was running on cruise control, so it was as if I had hit the Cancel switch followed by the Resume switch. Definitely no skid marks or loss of control. Did she push the lever down to cancel the brake? I guess anything is possible, but I seriously doubt it.

Ray

"If the electric parking brake must be
applied while driving in an emergency,
pull up and hold the electric parking
brake switch. When you release the
parking brake switch, the parking
brake will be released."
Nissan LEAF Owner's Manual, page 5-16

 

[jcesare]

As with most electroinc standards (switches come to mind), up is on, down is off.

When I was in England in the late 70s, electrical switches are the reverse of what it is here in the U.S.: up is off, down is on. I don't know if it's still that way.

I believe the UK, Australia and New Zealand are still that way.
In the US, the National Electrical Code states: Mount switches such that gravity won't close them. That means "OFF" is down and "ON" is up.

I've heard that in Japan switches are mounted sideways so falling objects from earthquakes will neither turn something on nor turn something off. Don't know if this is true or not.

 

[csriram45]

All these days I did not have any issue with the layout until yesterday when I took my good old stick shift "mustang" for a ride. I got in the car and wanted to reverse and I put the car in 1st Gear expecting it to reverse and was caught by surprise. Good thing I was expecting to reverse so did not hit the gas pedal hard .... else I would have had to call my insurance company.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

been doing it for years on a Prius. i never felt it to be backwards. its not something that is done often enough to where its really anything.

to me its like saying the radio controls should be left of center on the dash and the climate controls should be right of center. there is no right or wrong way. i am not flying a jet fighter so intuitive controls are not needed.

and for all intensive purposes as the old time auto transmission shows. its always been a "push" to get to reverse.... but then again, i had a 1962 Falcon that had a push button tranny so what ever.

 

[tps]

In the US, the National Electrical Code states: Mount switches such that gravity won't close them. That means "OFF" is down and "ON" is up.

If a switch is mounted upside down it says "NO" instead of "ON".

 

[UhClem]

Never really had to think about D/R direction.

It took me a day or so to get used to the parking brake until I realized it worked like a lever style mechanical parking break.

Now, what seems really backwards to me is panning the map on the nav system :mrgreen:

 

[highcountryrider]

So far, after only three days' driving, the shifter seems very natural; I have no problem
with it. The parking brake still confuses me sometimes. I don't know why; it works just
same as the one in the Starlet - pull on/push off. I think the delay is part of the issue.
I have trouble seeing the little LED in bright sunlight as well.

Overall though, I just get in and drive.

 

[LEAFguy]

It's very simple really. Nissan found 90% of initial LEAF reservationists owned a Toyota Prius. The Prius shift mechanism was press forward for reverse, and press back for drive. As a simple forward/backward movement was all that was needed on the LEAF, Nissan likely opted to not alienate 90% of their potential owners. Since others were used to a PRNDL driving experience (for the most part), it was going to be a new experience to them, no matter how it worked, so Nissan followed the Prius lead.

 

[planet4ever]

... Of course the decision was made long before reservations started, but I think they suspected years ago that they would be drawing heavily from Prius drivers. I don't know what fraction of active MNL posters have owned Priuses, but my own guess is that there is going to be a flood of prior Prius owners moving to LEAF, so that the fraction is going to go up, not down. I believe Toyota may have miscalculated, overestimating range anxiety and underestimating the reaction to a 10-15 mile electric range.

Ray

 

[harrier]

I design products (Internet) and I empathize with Nissan on this one, even though I wish the shifter was reversed.

When you are creating new interfaces, it is often best to do a lot of usability testing to see how people instinctively respond. However, when you have to make huge numbers of choices, and when the mode of operation is so new relative to expectation, the only option you have is to copy something and hope for the best.

It appears Nissan copied the Prius, and so we have what we have.

That said, I believe Nissan should change the shifter direction, so they can avoid the Audi 5000 problem. In the eighties, Audi started to build some very nice cars with very new designs (the 5000 notably). At one point, there were complaints that the cars spontaneously accelerated and caused accidents. Subsequent testing could not find any mechanical issues, and there was a suspicion that it was user error. But if multiple users have the same error, and the error results in bent metal or injury, then the car company suffers. It has taken Audi 20 years to recover.

In the case of the Leaf, I have had two people drive my car, my wife and brother, and both have put the car in reverse when they thought it was in drive. If there are more than two accidents caused by this, then no amount of explaining will erase the PR and (potential) legal damage.

Nissan should run a short usability test with subjects that have never driven the Leaf. If more than 60-70% of people instinctively get the shifting backwards they should change the parts immediately, regardless of the cost.

I care about this because my parents owned 2 Audi 5000s, which were relatively expensive and had almost zero resale value after the hysteria. I don't want this to happen to my Leaf!

 

[harrier]

It doesn't take me long to get used to arbitrary controls.
Besides, there is a precedent / history of auto trans cars having reverse forward, and drive backwards...

Am I the only one who doesn't get the comparison here?

In an automatic, drive is backwards, and so is reverse. Yes, you move forward to go from drive to reverse, but in normal driving you pull the stick back to back up, and back more to drive.

I think it would be more intuitive to go forward to drive, back to park, and push a button and pull left for reverse. Or pull back to go in gear and forward to go into park.

 

[jcesare]

I think it would be more intuitive to go forward to drive, back to park, and push a button and pull left for reverse. Or pull back to go in gear and forward to go into park.

I think the inspiration for the console mounted automatic shift came from the airline industry. In the 50's jets and rockets were the rage (fins on everything) and this control is similar to aircraft thrust controls. You pull back for thust.

In case you missed my post, I'll repost it:
The widespread adoption of PRNDL can be traced to a chapter in Ralph Nader's book "Unsafe At Any Speed." It discussed an alternative to the then-prevalent automatic shift pattern that was dangerous primarily due to human factors. This chapter advocated widespread adoption of the PRNDL pattern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#.22Disaster_deferred.22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

Nope, you push forward for more thrust on a jet just as you push forward for more throttle on a piston airplane.

I think the inspiration for the console mounted automatic shift came from the airline industry. In the 50's jets and rockets were the rage (fins on everything) and this control is similar to aircraft thrust controls. You pull back for thust.

 

[jcesare]

Nope, you push forward for more thrust on a jet just as you push forward for more throttle on a piston airplane.

I think the inspiration for the console mounted automatic shift came from the airline industry. In the 50's jets and rockets were the rage (fins on everything) and this control is similar to aircraft thrust controls. You pull back for thust.

Ooops

Well I guess it does seem backwards, then.