Do Volt drivers drive more EV miles than Leaf owners ?

[RegGuheert]

Like I mentioned above ... car pooling in another Leaf?

Our LEAF is likely parked more than 30% of the days. On nearly all of those days, it simply means that we didn't drive anywhere.

There have been about 10 occasions in the past 1.5 years when we took the HCH because the LEAF didn't have the legs to make the trip.

But I do not pretend to portray our usage as "typical". On the contrary, our intentions are to make our consumption very atypical on the low side.

 

[Stoaty]

Long story short: the Leafs stay parked on more days, presumably because on 25% of the days they can't make the trip.

My Leaf can't make the trip about 10 days a year. The rest of the time when it isn't driven it's because I am not driving anywhere. I don't think you can "presume" anything here.

 

[SanDust]

Yes, the Leaf ends up parked more days than the Volt. Just to be clear, the prediction that this would be the case and that, as a consequence, the Volt would get more zero emission miles than the Leaf, which turned out to be correct, was based on the DOT daily driving data. The only "presumption" was that the DOT surveys are accurate.

Not that everyone is guilty of this, some are genuinely interested in the science, but what has been called "bickering" is simply people with a somewhat religious predisposition towards BEVs being unwilling to accept the fact that a vehicle with "a gas engine" (audible gasps) may deliver more zero emission miles than a BEV (and their BEV at that) with limited range.

The math isn't that hard and the conclusion is irrefutable. It's the mind's refusal to accept realities it doesn't like that makes the fact hard to accept: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/new-study-politics-makes-you-innumerate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Stoaty]

Not that everyone is guilty of this, some are genuinely interested in the science, but what has been called "bickering" is simply people with a somewhat religious predisposition towards BEVs being unwilling to accept the fact that a vehicle with "a gas engine" (audible gasps) may deliver more zero emission miles than a BEV (and their BEV at that) with limited range.

I accept this as fact, I just don't think that it is measuring the most important number: how much gasoline Leaf households burn (probably most own an ICE vehicle also) vs. Volt households (most may own a conventional ICE vehicle also). I am not that interested in how many EV miles traveled, but am very interested in how much gasoline a household is using. For that matter, other vehicles like a regular Prius could be included.

The goal isn't more EV miles, it is less gasoline usage. If I had purchased a Volt, I would have used more gasoline per year than purchasing a Leaf, since neither the Leaf nor the Volt meets my needs for the 3-4 long trips a year I take.

 

[TimLee]

It's the mind's refusal to accept realities it doesn't like that makes the fact hard to accept: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/new-study-politics-makes-you-innumerate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Interesting study. First I had heard of the Scottish Enlightenment philosopher David Hume and his famous description of reason being a "slave of the passions." The new study does demonstrate how bias can impact analysis.
But focusing on only electric vehicle miles driven is a bias itself.
Real analysis comparing vehicles has to look at all costs, including overall $, overall gasoline usage, overall environmental emissions, etc.
Its not just electric miles driven.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

... religious predisposition towards BEVs being unwilling to accept the fact that a vehicle with "a gas engine" (audible gasps) may deliver more zero emission miles than a BEV (and their BEV at that) with limited range.

Of course its possible for a PHEV that is used to get more electric miles than a BEV that is unused.

There's also a "religious predisposition" by some to try and make a PHEV somehow more of an electric car than a BEV. It doesn't pass the sniff test. It requires some non-obvious thinking and isn't clear if its true in practice.

Put it this way, if a PHEV and a BEV are driven the same number of miles, the BEV will ALWAYS have as many or MORE electric (zero-emission) miles vs. the PHEV.
Its also true that given more than a trivial number of miles, a PHEV will ALWAYS generate more emissions than a BEV.

I've run a survey on MNL asking how many miles members here drive their Leafs. Overall results indicate no fewer miles than the typical ICE driver. That doesn't mean Leaf's aren't driven fewer miles, but it does indicate that the difference might not be as great as indicated in the Ecotality study indicating only 7550 miles/yr on Leafs.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Here's an interesting question, how many when their lease is up will abandon the Leaf and lease a Volt compared to how many will abandon the Volt in favor of the Leaf?

 

[RegGuheert]

Specifically, if you open The 2013 2nd Quarter Report and look at pages C-2 and D-2, you will see that the average EV Project Leaf driver drives 29.5 miles per day and the average EV Project Volt driver covers 41 miles per day.

I find the histogram of battery SOC at the start of charge sessions to be interesting data on these two pages.

It tells us that the Volt battery is fully depleted about 25% of the time (which equates to about 20% SOC when new). The LEAF, OTOH, is discharged to 20% SOC or below only about 3% of the time.

Average SOC at recharge for the LEAF is 50-60% with a strong Gaussian distribution. The Volt distribution is much flatter over the entire range with a spike at fully depleted. Obviously, the different shapes of the histograms are due to the fact that the Volt has a range extender and there is not a large penalty for draining the battery. The LEAF owner intentionally avoids the low SOC ranges (unless they're named Tony Williams!).

Interestingly, the electrical efficiency for EV for the Volt is reported to be 3.23 mi/kWh but none is given for the LEAF. I can't help thinking the average efficiency for the LEAF should be a bit higher than that, but how would we know. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Here's an interesting question, how many when their lease is up will abandon the Leaf and lease a Volt compared to how many will abandon the Volt in favor of the Leaf?

Why is this an interesting question?

I doubt many Volt owners would get a Leaf. They justified the purchase based on needing more range or not trusting that they can really go emission free with a Leaf, or wanting to buy American. The Volt forum usually trashes the Leaf.

Leaf owners who've been burned with battery degradation might consider a Volt unless a BEV comes around thats more heat resistant or Nissan fixes the issue as they've said they will with the new heat resistant battery in 2014.

So far, I'm happy with my choice. Now that I've gone electric, I won't willingly go back. I do hope someone will sell a BEV in all 50 states with better range. So far I don't see it. I'm mostly waiting around for the Tesla Gen III.

 

[hill]

Here's an interesting question, how many when their lease is up will abandon the Leaf and lease a Volt compared to how many will abandon the Volt in favor of the Leaf?

Guess is, most won't do a Volt because of it's smaller interior, and its CS mode is lower than many other car's mpg. That's what kept us from buying it in the 1st place. Now, if they get the CS mode up above 45mpg - then we'd be willing to trade off it's interior being too tight for us ... as long as we could buy a CARB compliant model. Why on earth the dirty version is still allowed (and why GM would still want to build it) continues to baffle me.

 

[CarZin]

The Volt forum usually trashes the Leaf.

I don't think that is the case. Whatever irritation the Volt forum has with the Leaf is because of a select number of Leaf purists, that have given Leaf owners a bad name. Couple this with the obnoxious Nissan commercial poking fun of the Volt (you haven't seen this on a GM national television campaign), and you get some justified reactions. The Volt, being the national sales leader, has been the target of a LOT of crap, not just from competitors, but from the media and government.

Personally, I WOULD consider the Leaf as a car, but still prefer the Volt, as its range meets my needs (enough to drive 96% electric in about 2 years and 35,000 miles) without the need to buy a battery capacity that is double my needs and I don't need to worry about taking longer trips.

For the record, I did NOT create this topic. I guess an admin split off a post I made in another thread and started it for me.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

...Couple this with the obnoxious Nissan commercial poking fun of the Volt (you haven't seen this on a GM national television campaign), and you get some justified reactions.

Do you mean this one or are there more? I think its awesome. The dig at the Volt did see a little unnecessary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCs8B-TlylY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[CarZin]

That's it. Had it not included the Volt at the end, it would have been great.

 

[smkettner]

The dig at the Volt did see a little unnecessary.

Same as the reference to "leaf blower" in the Volt commercial?

 

[donald]

The dig at the Volt did see[m] a little unnecessary.

That was cheeky-going-on-rude. They would probably lose sales [and deserve it] to 'thinking' folks who don't like someone trying to lead them on.

Both good products, I can't see what the cock-fight is about.

Thing is - I've been in warehouses where quite a lot of kit runs off LPG indoors. Needs a large warehouse and bit of ventilation, but no problem 'indoors'. I believe there are already methanol based fuel cell power sources available. Clean CO-free combustion should be generally harmless. Roll on the fuel powered computer - it'll cost a lot less than all the failed laptop batteries I've had to replace recently!!!

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ The really funny part in that Leaf commercial is the oh-so-conveniently located public charging spot that a) exists, b) wasn't ICEd, c) wasn't already in use by another EV and d) hadn't had the cord ripped off by copper thieves. From where I sit they might as well have shown it connected to a unicorn.

At least the guy with the Volt was able to find a gas pump.

 

[donald]

the oh-so-conveniently located public charging spot ... might as well have shown it connected to a unicorn.

:lol: very good...

 

[donald]

Did you notice, for about a half a second (at 0:46), and in writing so small that it is probably 3 pixels high on a standard LCD TV, the advert says "The Chevy Volt is a gas-electric hybrid"?

 

[RegGuheert]

Did you notice, for about a half a second (at 0:46), and in writing so small that it is probably 3 pixels high on a standard LCD TV, the advert says "The Chevy Volt is a gas-electric hybrid"?

I can't believe you spotted that given where they located the text!

I love that commercial! Most creative LEAF commercial so far!

 

[donald]

(There's also a word "Dramatization" at 0:06 - I guess just in case someone thinks they can buy these things!!)

I wonder which came first - the Leaf, or the Renault advert?.... would they really have the same marketing department??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DrsJks9ysw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Same tinkle-tinkle piano style.